James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[James Carrion]

I think Mr Carrion makes a good case for some element of disinformation and counter intelligence of behalf of the US in relation to UFO. However, you should read the Mitrovkin archive before making any final judgement. This man had access to nearly all KGB files and copied them before defecting to the west. I would have guessed there would have been at least a sniff of soviet/KGB suspicions of US counter intelligence operations of this nature in these files. My view is perhaps there is a bit of both going on:
.

I own two copies of the Mitrokhin Archive. Chapter nine "From War to Cold War" is the most illuminating to the time frame in my book. It describes how after Igor Gouzenko defected to the West in 1945, the Soviet intelligence operations in the US and Canada essentially became paralyzed and were not only instructed not to actively contact their illegal espionage assets but also not to recruit new agents. This paralysis was essential to the Rosetta Deception and I mention it in the book as it forced the Soviets to turn to an intelligence source they could openly glean - the American Press. If there is no record in the KGB archives - it is because the deception was both undetected and successful.

 

[junius]

Yes, agree fully with Mike - you have got to keep an open mind. Regarding Roswell, if it was a counter intelligence or disinformation project then it may not make sense. You see, the 509th were the only airbase at the time with the bomb. Why risk drawing much more attention to that general area by such an announcement? It would have made more sense to have the 'craft' as far away as possible to divert attention. Unless, of course there were other secret facilities the US had and wanted to keep quiet? Highly likely the soviets already knew what was going on at the 509th and the US wanted to keep the soviets fixated on that area? However, based on what I have read thus far, including 'witness to Roswell' the folk that reported actually seeing and witnessing what happened cannot be completely discarded. If it was a counter intelligence operation it would have been of grand proportions. But - think during WW2, the fields full of 'blow up' and cardboard tanks, even fake industrial facilities used to fool axis bombers, Operation 'Mincemeat' to fool the Nazi's as to where allied landings were to be, 'dummy paratroopers' dropped into fields during D-Day, completed with fireworks to fool the enemy - such elaborate illusions were not uncommon to the US or its allies...I'm sure if you asked any German soldier what he saw during the night of D-Day, he would swear on his life that he witnessed many enemy paratroopers landing and firing on him and his comrades, when in fact they were just dummies...Please note: I am NOT a debunker, I just have an open and questioning mind...

 

[junius]

I own two copies of the Mitrokhin Archive. Chapter nine "From War to Cold War" is the most illuminating to the time frame in my book. It describes how after Igor Gouzenko defected to the West in 1945, the Soviet intelligence operations in the US and Canada essentially became paralyzed and were not only instructed not to actively contact their illegal espionage assets but also not to recruit new agents. This paralysis was essential to the Rosetta Deception and I mention it in the book as it forced the Soviets to turn to an intelligence source they could openly glean - the American Press. If there is no record in the KGB archives - it is because the deception was both undetected and successful.

Yes, seems a fair point. I'm still working my way through your book.

 

[DissectionStalker]

If this is correct, even at a small level, they the intelligence will know it's impact on our culture then it stands to reason there is perhaps an intentional manipulation going on. If so, what is it's end game?

The source of the phenomena is of course important, but it's effects are more so. The phrase "control system" has been used before, and it makes sense in a system where you are manipulating belief. But the system itself, if it does exist may well be accessible in some way should you produce the correct scenario to engage it.

Another thought could be thus. What if a private group have figured out a way to engage this system & are able to get the phenomena to manifest on cue? Now that would be scary.

Imo, Transhumanists are a growing part of it since the 1970's. For example, Ray Kurzweil at Google. All the "computer freaks" that want to merge with AI. The Singularity BS by 2045. Just watch all the SyFy Movie and TV programming with these constant themes. Its been going on for decades now. We have a Master Race of Humans working the Control System.

IF ET is really here too, then some Master Race Humans already know too, imo. There already is a breakaway civilization, but these Master Race elites operate among us for the time being. Homeland Security has them Doomsday prepped already if they don't already have their back-up plan in-place themselves.

The Transhumanists want to join and merge with ET. Ok, that's just one whacky [paranoid?] track of many possible tracks to the truth(s), imo.

 

[junius]

'Churchills wizards' - British deceptions 1914-1945 is also a good read.

 

[James Carrion]

Yes, agree fully with Mike - you have got to keep an open mind. Regarding Roswell, if it was a counter intelligence or disinformation project then it may not make sense. You see, the 509th were the only airbase at the time with the bomb. Why risk drawing much more attention to that general area by such an announcement? It would have made more sense to have the 'craft' as far away as possible to divert attention. Unless, of course there were other secret facilities the US had and wanted to keep quiet? Highly likely the soviets already knew what was going on at the 509th and the US wanted to keep the soviets fixated on that area? However, based on what I have read thus far, including 'witness to Roswell' the folk that reported actually seeing and witnessing what happened cannot be completely discarded. If it was a counter intelligence operation it would have been of grand proportions. But - think during WW2, the fields full of 'blow up' and cardboard tanks, even fake industrial facilities used to fool axis bombers, Operation 'Mincemeat' to fool the Nazi's as to where allied landings were to be, 'dummy paratroopers' dropped into fields during D-Day, completed with fireworks to fool the enemy - such elaborate illusions were not uncommon to the US or its allies...I'm sure if you asked any German soldier what he saw during the night of D-Day, he would swear on his life that he witnessed many enemy paratroopers landing and firing on him and his comrades, when in fact they were just dummies...Please note: I am NOT a debunker, I just have an open and questioning mind...

I see it in a completely opposite way. The Soviets were fully aware that the US practiced compartmentalization of their most highly secret projects. Was the US Army Air Force aware of the Manhattan Project? Only when it became their responsibility to drop the bomb. Heck even Vice President Truman was not aware of the Manhattan Project until he became President.
So from that point of view - the 509th makes complete sense. If they "recovered" something and blabbed to the Press about it, it was done purposely to clue the Soviets in on the "flying discs" being a compartmentalized project that the 509th was not aware of. It provides more, not less legitimacy to this possibility in the eyes of Soviet intelligence. If it was Gomer Pyle unit 412 that discovered the "debris", the Soviets would not have paid much attention.

The Soviets were highly tuned in to the possibility of a highly secret project that was possibly of an airborne nature - the World Press having reported on this possibility two weeks before the Kenneth Arnold sighting. Roswell provided confirmation of that project to Soviet intelligence.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

James ,
This is where the Soviet or Chinese (east block) operatives managed to get their women and men into high places. Also relates to Roswell being ideal spy network hotspot during the Cold War.

 

[junius]

I own two copies of the Mitrokhin Archive. Chapter nine "From War to Cold War" is the most illuminating to the time frame in my book. It describes how after Igor Gouzenko defected to the West in 1945, the Soviet intelligence operations in the US and Canada essentially became paralyzed and were not only instructed not to actively contact their illegal espionage assets but also not to recruit new agents. This paralysis was essential to the Rosetta Deception and I mention it in the book as it forced the Soviets to turn to an intelligence source they could openly glean - the American Press. If there is no record in the KGB archives - it is because the deception was both undetected and successful.

You could be onto something there. As I said, I'm still working my way through your book, but I've just dusted off my copy of The Mitrokhin archive (The KGB in Europe and the West). From scanning the chapter 'from war to cold war' the following stand out:

In July 1947 the soviet foreign intelligence directorates (The MGB and GRU) were combined to form a new unified foreign intelligence agency (The KI) this included combining the illegal sections of both agencies - a perfect time for the US to launch a counter intelligence op as the new KI would have been in a bit of a state organising itself. Now - why was the 509th chosen? Maybe it was simply a convenient location to 'draw' illegals across the border from Mexico for capture? A kind of 'entrapment'? From the Mitrokhin archive it mentions illegals were helped in Mexico by soviet agents and members of the spanish communist party in exile - interesting...

 

[DissectionStalker]

The Soviets were highly tuned in to the possibility of a highly secret project that was possibly of an airborne nature - the World Press having reported on this possibility two weeks before the Kenneth Arnold sighting. Roswell provided confirmation of that project to Soviet intelligence.

Seems reasonable to me.

But why would Air Force OSI use Doty and others in the late 1970's to PSYOPS the ideas that ET crashed at Roswell, ET bodies were collected, and one ET survived and was interviewed and kept in confinement? Doty was pumping this information into Moore [and no doubt others] for the Roswell book. He was actively PYSOPS'ing Linda Moulton Howe, Bennewitz, probably Gabe Valdez, and numerous other people.

It would sure be interesting to know if Doty or OSI had informants relating to Roswell, and if he got to PSYOPS some people that Moore and Friedman had contacted too.

Any thoughts or ideas why Air Force OSI did this? Btw, this was a formalized organized PSYOPS officially enacted by A.F.O.S.I. according to Doty. He was not acting as a lone wolf, so there were others part of the PSYOPS too.

Bill Moore admits to being complicit to this decades ago, and I don't see why Doty would lie about that now. He was/is a policeman in New Mexico, when he said this happened a few years ago 'on camera' for Mirage Men. I don't think there was any fancy editing to distort what he said. It seems very straight forward, so either he is lying or not.

 

[James Carrion]

Seems reasonable to me.

But why would Air Force OSI use Doty and others in the late 1970's to PSYOPS the ideas that ET crashed at Roswell, ET bodies were collected, and one ET survived and was interviewed and kept in confinement? Doty was pumping this information into Moore [and no doubt others] for the Roswell book. He was actively PYSOPS'ing Linda Moulton Howe, Bennewitz, probably Gabe Valdez, and numerous other people.

It would sure be interesting to know if Doty or OSI had informants relating to Roswell, and if he got to PSYOPS some people that Moore and Friedman had contacted too.

Any thoughts or ideas why Air Force OSI did this? Btw, this was a formalized organized PSYOPS officially enacted by A.F.O.S.I. according to Doty. He was not acting as a lone wolf with others part of the PSYOPS too.

Bill Moore admits to being complicit to this decades ago, and I don't see why Doty would lie about that now. He was/is a policeman in New Mexico, when he said this happened a few years ago 'on camera' for Mirage Men. I don't think there was any fancy editing to distort what he said. It seems very straight forward, so either he is lying or not.

It is called "cognitive dissonance" - you can deceive someone into believing anything that they are already predisposed to believe.

 

[SRL+]

Focus, focus, focus.... I am focused on my own research into the 1945 - 1947 time frame and don't have anything to add to the Stephenville saga, MUFON polictics, petty accusations, etc.

It wasn’t like I was asking for the entire world, just a sentence or two. Looking on the bright side, you wrote one, and I’m grateful for that…, thanks.

 

[Burnt State]

Taking all of the "sightings" and throwing them into one big bucket of evidence is an exercise in futility ... it is the problem that plagues Ufologists who want to come up with a grand scheme of things explanation, something I am often accused of doing with my research, but which is just the opposite as I focus on a very narrow time frame.

I understand the value of focussed research, especially for this unique time period, but certainly you must have some opinion on how it is that these sightings continue forwards, for certainly it can't be an extension of your own thesis. Do you feel that this is just the result of cultural programming now and why only in Sweden and not the other ghost rocket countries?

But more specifically to your own time period focus, do you take the ghost rockets of Greece, Portugal, Finland, Belgium & Austria in this same time frame to be all part of the same 1946 propaganda phenomenon? The US military appears to have played a role in some of the investigations that followed, encouraging gov'ts to keep quiet about it all and not raise public alarm. Is your argument that this was a specific and focused campaign that the Americans kept secret from the rest of their allies in Europe or that this was done at upper levels of gov't as part of a grander, hidden cold war plan?

In your research did you ever identify any retaliatory practices in those countries i.e. attempts to shoot these missles down?

 

[mike_thoth]

Some interesting comments & perspectives on this thread. The problem with Roswell for me is the lack of hard data, there are no doubts attempts at cover up etc... As I've said before the USAF or USAAF have changed their conclusions on the actual cause of the Roswell affair, interestingly when new evidence or claims arise in the research community.

For instance the notion Marcell or other people mis-identified crash dummies, made of wood or plastic materials is simply absurd, it strains credulity. You then more recently have the GAO unable to find any files pertaining to the all edged dates. If you had top secret tech, there's no way it would have been left for a week whilst ranchers & potential spies to find. I think we also have to give Friedman his due here. He was the original investigator & for much on the deception to work I think much testimony must be ignored.

That said, I also give Carrion his dues. In such a field going against the grain is challenging. I think he also gives us a keyhole view into intelligence. These guys are sophisticated, well funded & over the years become incredibly adept at modelling the behaviour of people, or groups of people involved in various fields. They spend masses of money & I think most people would not understand the complexity of their ideas.

I also think that the UFO community can often be blinded by its overly focused emphasis on the UFO subject. As a person i am very much interested in geopolitics, science, terrorism, politics. Many UFO commentators have these very same interests but tend not to integrate them into the UFO subject. Thus any coverup & misinformation in specific areas with a UFO history MUST be related to ufos. I would venture a guess that this be ideal for those wishing to use the ufology community as a cover. Lord knows ufology is akin to a dysfunctional family at the moment but I'm heartened to hear serious efforts are being made, but also some of the commentary on this forum, albeit I don't post much. Just my opinion.

I do however feel there is a genuine phenomena here, whether the "powers that be" have any answers cannot be known.

Regarding Carrions note on the 509th being unaware, that their base was perfect for this deception I agree & disagree. The soviets were not stupid. There was infiltration into the US nuclear program by soviet agents & British agents working for the soviets. The fact a Vice President did not know is irrelevant. Politicians have a shelf life, agencies don't.

It seems the Soviets also had a vast study program, using military witnesses designed to illicit good data. The led the study using real scientists who were certainly not claiming a crashed disc. It seems fro investigators of these studies, including Stonehill & Vallee as he travelled there that these people were serious, well versed in the literature & were dealing with real unidentified phenomena.

Why would both sides try & deceive on the same plan, when military pilots were engaging these phenomena?

I think (but clearly don't know for certain) that the efforts to "study" the phenomena was because they felt the object was real, physical & likely to offer a quantum leap in tech should it be worked out. From a social, scientific, political & intelligence. The deception may have been down to real concerns of the "enemy" making a breakthrough.

We can never know this stuff so into the grey basket.

I would like to know however whether Carrions intel experience has influenced his opinions, if so why? He likely knows the level of deception ready & available to be sucked into the public mind by some kind of mental osmosis.

Mike

 

[junius]

OK, lets say you're right about Roswell at least. It begs the question of why hasn't the 'real' event surfaced now? Many other covert and counter intelligence operations have been made public, the high profile Howard Hughes / CIA partnership to raise a soviet sub is just one example that springs to mind. If it is /was compartmentalised or if it has been maintained to help feed the illusion I would strongly suspect to get at least a whiff of that from sources ranging from Snowden to the Chinese managing to steal top secret computer programs & information from the US - of course I'm mindful this can work both ways if the US was covering up UFO 'evidence'. It is a fascinating subject, I do hope any debate between Mr Friedman and Mr Carrion doesn't get personal, it will distract away from what really needs to be addressed head on. I look forward to any such debate, as always, with an open mind...in the meantime I'm going to bed to carrying on reading Mr Carrion's book.

 

[junius]

I have to say, after reading Mr Carrion's book I am rather impressed. Couple of minor points: Mr Carrion refers to KGB operations in the 1940's, I didn't think the KGB were formed until 1954, however I presume he uses this term to refer generically to foreign soviet intelligence agencies of the time. The other on conspiracy theories and the assassination of JFK: the last official US stance on JFK was that there WAS a strong chance Oswald did not act alone and there was a conspiracy. Small points though overall I think. It appears to be a well researched book generally speaking, I do like the following points:

Verona: Yes, highly likely that to draw soviet agents into transmitting messages on the one time pads tempting stories could have been placed in the newspapers

I like the idea that (sorry to keep going back to Roswell) for the US counter intelligence to determine if soviet agents were indeed near to Roswell/monitoring local Roswell newspapers, what better way than to put out such a fantastic story! Words such as 'Roswell' & 'Flying Saucer' could well have stood out in such transmissions allowing US counter intelligence to a) confuse Stalin b) Help locate soviet agents c) Determine if soviet agents were indeed monitoring Roswell local papers

I need to re-read the Ghost rockets chapters again though, but a well reasoned and researched book Mr Carrion. Thanks.

 

[James Carrion]

OK, lets say you're right about Roswell at least. It begs the question of why hasn't the 'real' event surfaced now? Many other covert and counter intelligence operations have been made public, the high profile Howard Hughes / CIA partnership to raise a soviet sub is just one example that springs to mind. If it is /was compartmentalised or if it has been maintained to help feed the illusion I would strongly suspect to get at least a whiff of that from sources ranging from Snowden to the Chinese managing to steal top secret computer programs & information from the US - of course I'm mindful this can work both ways if the US was covering up UFO 'evidence'. It is a fascinating subject, I do hope any debate between Mr Friedman and Mr Carrion doesn't get personal, it will distract away from what really needs to be addressed head on. I look forward to any such debate, as always, with an open mind...in the meantime I'm going to bed to carrying on reading Mr Carrion's book.

Uh, it just surfaced in my book...not all secrets needs to come from within the intelligence community...and this was one tightly held secret....one that spawned an entire mythology and a thousand books and web sites like this one...

 

[James Carrion]

Some interesting comments & perspectives on this thread. The problem with Roswell for me is the lack of hard data, there are no doubts attempts at cover up etc... As I've said before the USAF or USAAF have changed their conclusions on the actual cause of the Roswell affair, interestingly when new evidence or claims arise in the research community.

I would like to know however whether Carrions intel experience has influenced his opinions, if so why? He likely knows the level of deception ready & available to be sucked into the public mind by some kind of mental osmosis.

Mike

My intel experience as a signals intelligence analyst trained me to see the signal in the noise...what intrigued me about Ufology was so much noise and little to no signal...

Why do so many educated people get lost in this subject? After all, we don't have leprechaun conventions like there are UFO conventions...the more I researched the more I noticed the human hand of deception. This more than anything launched me on my journey to study the early days of the modern UFO era...

 

[James Carrion]

Mr Carrion refers to KGB operations in the 1940's, I didn't think the KGB were formed until 1954, however I presume he uses this term to refer generically to foreign soviet intelligence agencies of the time.

Yes the book story line is complicated enough to have to "accurately" label all the changes the Soviet Intelligence services have had in the last 100 years..KGB is well known enough to act as the generic label...

 

[DissectionStalker]

[...]These guys are sophisticated, well funded & over the years become incredibly adept at modelling the behaviour of people, or groups of people involved in various fields. They spend masses of money & I think most people would not understand the complexity of their ideas.

I also think that the UFO community can often be blinded by its overly focused emphasis on the UFO subject. As a person i am very much interested in geopolitics, science, terrorism, politics. Many UFO commentators have these very same interests but tend not to integrate them into the UFO subject. Thus any coverup & misinformation in specific areas with a UFO history MUST be related to ufos. I would venture a guess that this be ideal for those wishing to use the ufology community as a cover. Lord knows ufology is akin to a dysfunctional family[...]

Here is my "tuning the noise" theory about this. Tell me what you think about this...

Do you think there are pacification manipulations being used to prevent organized change by political means?

I have a "noise level" theory. Meaning, the manipulators have figured out ways to tune the noise level to distract the target audience, the voters, with other events/issues as needed to create the tuned distractions that diffuse the population as a whole whenever some threatening events occurs that potentially destabilizes their power structures.

I guess my point is, maybe this manipulation science is so advanced now that there is just a need to tune "noise levels" without having to use specific distractions anymore, because the pacification is controlled by this more subtle and diffuse methodology. Perhaps UFO waves (Pentacle style), regional UFO sightings, the OJ trial, the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, the marathon bombers, GMOs, Waco, Alien Harvest, or 911 would be used as part of this noise control system too?

If what I'm suggesting works and is in play, then it would be near impossible to identify the manipulators behind the curtains or organize in the midst of pacification by distraction for true political change.

Any comments? Anyone?

Thanks.

 

[Constance]

. . . I think official investigators, perhaps under the radar may have loads of such material, they are likely to have a treasure trove of photos & other smoking gun evidence, but after analysing all of this, there is no gaur entree they have all the answers. I think this may well be a primary reason for the silence and where needed, a coverup of best evidence.

For years the Air Force used gun cameras and sought film of the ufos encountered in the air. We know they were successful at times in capturing images. None of these have been made public. Images from cameras on the moon have undoubtedly been obscured. During the Blue Book program, the best, most evidential, cases were sequestered at Battelle. Of course, the military and other government agencies know more than we do.

But what concerns me are the social impacts. Let's say we are being monitored, then this has likely Been happening for thousands of years. If they were quietly monitoring then they could do it without being seen or detected. However they do get seen, millions of times. Why?

I do think we've been monitored for a long time but only recently out of concern for the risks we pose to ourselves and others. I think they allow their presence to be observed to inform us of the existence of organized intelligence beyond our own and in proximity to us; that we are being watched by minds superior to our own; and that we are thus advised to conduct business on our planet more rationally and sustainably.

Even the sightings themselves cause social issues which is a variable in how our culture develops. For instance polls now show that the public correlates ufos with alien spacecraft. This is not all because of the result of UFO researchers linking the two. The phenomena itself plays into this belief system by constantly giving us alien type creatures & prophetic warnings from contactees eager to be heard.

If this is correct, even at a small level, they the intelligence will know it's impact on our culture then it stands to reason there is perhaps an intentional manipulation going on. If so, what is it's end game

I would guess it's to interfere with us if and only if we approach a self-inflicted planetary cataclysm or attempt to carry one to others beyond earth.