June 28, 2015 — Richard Dolan

[Burnt State]

Lets assume that the "ETH" is the correct answer(which is entirely different question), I am going have to agree with Constance
I mean to say that how could anyone possibly assume that their technology is by any means completely in capable of failure? I would assume that they could potentially run in to unforeseen circumstance just as any sort of technology we have could. just look at how the sun could completely knock out the worlds entire electrical grid with a single EMP burst. something that could potentially happen that was completely unforeseen by the creators of all sorts of different electronics. A craft could potentially have crashed either do to an unforeseen circumstance or simply "Pilot Error" which I do not think is completely out of the realm of possibility. Just because European settlers were technologically more advance than Native Americans doesn't mean that they didn't kill them from time to time or even sink one of their ships. also we are talking about two separate groups of people that developed independent of each other and that the technological gap could not be measured in years considering that Native Americans are probably older than Europeans. so who is to say that even a society that is a million years more advance than us is necessarily incapable of misfortune. the human species has been here for 200 thousand years and things still go wrong all the time. who's to say that they still wont a million years from now. and also if there were more then one group visiting us and were potentially hostile toward each other. I'm sure that Native Pacific Islander uncovered crashed fighter planes during WWII from time to time that were much more advanced than anything they have ever seen. If we are to truly believe that ET is completely infallible then perhaps we should all consider Joining a "Heavens Gate" type of group?

Also I think that we are not giving the Government enough credit as to their ability to hide things that they don't want to be known. look at the Sr71 blackbird? look at the fact that its been over 500 years and somehow Children across this country are still being taught that Christopher Columbus discovered America, and even worse is that the large majority of them will believe that until the day they die.

Thinking about the scales of time and distance that are involved with traversing galactic corridors to get here, along with just how old and advanced other civilizations would have to be to participate in such endeavors, the notion that they would crash upon arrival due to blind chance or dumb luck I find to be categorically ridiculous. You are simply not going to expend resources and risk lives, especially in a civilization where lives would probably have significant more value and not less due to radical increases in longevity compared to our own medical science. Either you know for a fact you can go wherever you want to go because you have overcome most if not all problems regarding space travel or you're staying home and sending out drones, remote control reconnaissance nanobots, or other hi-tech information gathering systems that pose no risks to your own life forms.

These issues all point towards the likelihood of whatever is behind some aspects of the UFO phenomena, originates much closer to home than stars much further away. What we consider infallible vs. what an advanced space faring species considers infallible are also not on comparative scales that we could begin to comprehend. What UFO's demonstrate are capacities regarding time and space that break rules we are just starting to scratch at. The Alien Incompetence Theory is a good joke cooked up by Rutkowski's team but I'm not sure if it's worth considering as anything more than a joke.

Consequently I do not understand the connection between joining a suicidal UFO death cult and infallibility. Are you making allusions to godhead here? Why join? Those people who joined that cult have personal issues that very measurable and repeatable unfortunately, due to our own very human fallibilities.

 

[Randall]

Thinking about the scales of time and distance that are involved with traversing galactic corridors to get here, along with just how old and advanced other civilizations would have to be to participate in such endeavors, the notion that they would crash upon arrival due to blind chance or dumb luck I find to be categorically ridiculous ...

To make it seem less ridiculous, consider changing the parameters. Instead of invoking intergalactic distances, consider nearby interstellar distances. Consider the possibility that the technology required for such a trip would not need to be much more advanced than our own. Because of the lack of things to explore between star systems, scout craft would rarely be used, so given the age of the machines, a lack of experience operating them, and an alien world, plus a few surprises, like getting caught in some bad weather, and it's not hard to think that some alien craft not specifically designed to operate here might run into problems.

So let's not be too quick to invoke the idea that our technology is so bad that it should pale in comparison. Our airliner technology is amazing. Sure it's all based on the principles of aerodynamics, but that's just the point. We understand those variables really well now, and yet our safest aircraft still run into problems.

Then of course, there is always the possibility of intentional crashes, perhaps so that the aliens can study how we react to them. Not long ago we crashed a probe into the Moon. So the idea of an intentional crash isn't really all that far fetched. It would give any aliens who wondered a fairly good idea we react, and repeating the experiment in different regions would give them some idea about how the natives react in different places. That intel could be very useful, like dropping a marshmallow onto an ant pile and studying what happens.

​

 

[Constance]

Thinking about the scales of time and distance that are involved with traversing galactic corridors to get here, along with just how old and advanced other civilizations would have to be to participate in such endeavors, the notion that they would crash upon arrival due to blind chance or dumb luck I find to be categorically ridiculous. You are simply not going to expend resources and risk lives, especially in a civilization where lives would probably have significant more value and not less due to radical increases in longevity compared to our own medical science. Either you know for a fact you can go wherever you want to go because you have overcome most if not all problems regarding space travel or you're staying home and sending out drones, remote control reconnaissance nanobots, or other hi-tech information gathering systems that pose no risks to your own life forms.

These issues all point towards the likelihood of whatever is behind some aspects of the UFO phenomena, originates much closer to home than stars much further away. What we consider infallible vs. what an advanced space faring species considers infallible are also not on comparative scales that we could begin to comprehend. What UFO's demonstrate are capacities regarding time and space that break rules we are just starting to scratch at. The Alien Incompetence Theory is a good joke cooked up by Rutkowski's team but I'm not sure if it's worth considering as anything more than a joke.

Consequently I do not understand the connection between joining a suicidal UFO death cult and infallibility. Are you making allusions to godhead here? Why join? Those people who joined that cult have personal issues that very measurable and repeatable unfortunately, due to our own very human fallibilities.

Isn't it likely that any craft that crash here are small scout ships less secure from natural forces and accidents than the motherships that bring them across astronomical distances?

 

[Burnt State]

Isn't it likely that any craft that crash here are small scout ships less secure from natural forces and accidents than the motherships that bring them across astronomical distances?

I have to confess I find the whole concept of a mothership to be mostly an invention from Close Encounters that could have little basis in reality. As much as this concept of scout ships, generational ships, or motherships housing many, many life forms traveling about the galaxy has been embedded in both popular culture and seen as a pragmatic approach in popular Ufology, I don't find the idea appealing nor plausible. But who can see space travel through an alien mind? I suppose anything is possible, but discussing what is reasonable in terms of why come here, how will you survive once you get here, why bother traversing such distances, why return so often for more soil samples, sperm and eggs etc. still plague my mind. There is very little in the traditional ETH scenario that makes much sense at all if we are going to talk about organic life going on such repeated journeys. A one off mission is much more understandable, but not the history we have with UFO's.

But let's say they're not so far away, as @ufology suggests up above. I'm not that impressed with ourviwn machines of flight which are technologcalky inefficient, costly, and crash too often onto our own planet. But if you had the technological skill to go somewhere and come back, what's the likelihood you are going to send ships with life forms of any amount in them, and would you really be doing it as often as we have historically reported seeing such wonders in the sky? The ETH is too simplistic and just does not account for the history of the phenomenon as we have understood it to date.

Then of course, there is always the possibility of intentional crashes, perhaps so that the aliens can study how we react to them. Not long ago we crashed a probe into the Moon. So the idea of an intentional crash isn't really all that far fetched. It would give any aliens who wondered a fairly good idea we react, and repeating the experiment in different regions would give them some idea about how the natives react in different places. That intel could be very useful, like dropping a marshmallow onto an ant pile and studying what happens.

The idea of testing our reactions is an interesting one, but would you really engage in such high risk activity? Giving away your technology in such an irresponsible manner makes no sense. Some might say that what is taking place is in fact a massive, controlled psycho-social study of us, hence the multitude of reports across the history of the modern technological era, repetitions in supposed research actions & flight path evasion, the lack of overt exposure, and the persistent mimicry of alien craft that match popular culture or just exceed current technologies by some fractions. We do appear to be the ant pile in comparison to what is being seen. And we perhaps are test subjects of a sort. What we are seeing could be a form of communication or fine art. Whatever it is we remain mostly clueless about it. But there has been much comfort taken from the simplicity of the ETH, I suppose. It just does not add up, that's all.

 

[Randall]

... The idea of testing our reactions is an interesting one, but would you really engage in such high risk activity? Giving away your technology in such an irresponsible manner makes no sense ...

It wouldn't be necessary to give away a whole lot. Just dig out some old otherwise useless relics from the cargo bay and drop them from a scout ship. Then watch what happens. We've been even less responsible. Look what we did with the curiosity lander? Instead of engineering it to land and act as a useful base unit, they flew it all the way to Mars and crashed it on purpose! That's nuts IMO, but it didn't stop us from doing it.

Some might say that what is taking place is in fact a massive, controlled psycho-social study of us, hence the multitude of reports across the history of the modern technological era, repetitions in supposed research actions & flight path evasion, the lack of overt exposure, and the persistent mimicry of alien craft that match popular culture or just exceed current technologies by some fractions. We do appear to be the ant pile in comparison to what is being seen. And we perhaps are test subjects of a sort. What we are seeing could be a form of communication or fine art. Whatever it is we remain mostly clueless about it. But there has been much comfort taken from the simplicity of the ETH, I suppose. It just does not add up, that's all.

The ETH doesn't fit every aspect of the subject matter to be accurate. For example, just because the ETH doesn't fit in with faery culture mythology doesn't invalidate the ETH as an explanation for UFOs. In every instance I've run across where the ETH doesn't seem to fit the picture, it's the alternative explanation that seems more far fetched than the ETH, not the other way around. But by all means, I'm open to discussing some specific examples if you care to bring them up.

 

[Burnt State]

It wouldn't be necessary to give away a whole lot. Just dig out some old otherwise useless relics from the cargo bay and drop them from a scout ship. Then watch what happens. We've been even less responsible. Look what we did with the curiosity lander? Instead of engineering it to land and act as a useful base unit, they flew it all the way to Mars and crashed it on purpose! That's nuts IMO, but it didn't stop us from doing it.

Wouldn't basic observation of how we already respond inter-culturally to getting each other's crashed technology be enough to understand our psychology? You also are then making an argument for Roswell as a crashed saucer from outset space which I don't think is something that can be hidden from human history. But I understand your point regarding senselessness and how species may experiment irresponsibly with its technology. In my sympathetic vision of the remote possiblity of aliens visiting here, or whatever it is behind the UFO phenomenon, they are indifferent to us and mostly passive in their interactions & observations. Dropping tech from above just doesn't mesh with my Star Trek non-inference policy - too much radical potential for harm in such actions.

The ETH doesn't fit every aspect of the subject matter to be accurate. For example, just because the ETH doesn't fit in with faery culture mythology doesn't invalidate the ETH as an explanation for UFOs. In every instance I've run across where the ETH doesn't seem to fit the picture, it's the alternative explanation that seems more far fetched than the ETH, not the other way around. But by all means, I'm open to discussing some specific examples if you care to bring them up.

I agree with lot of what you are saying here, especially in the tone of 'possibility' that you are expressing. But when looked at as a whole, the entire phenomenon that is, the ETH is sorely lacking and inadequate, and far too abundant and redundant for the supposed prolific series of visitations we have had. Yes, isolated cases have an appearance of aliens visiting from outer space. That's part of the main problem that there is this simulation and mimicry of such things as faeries, greys, motherships, scout ships, or airship pilots from scandinavia and china etc...we can take up the usual anti-ETH arguments I suppose at that thread, but it is fairly much an acceptable position that the ETH as an ideology is simply not sufficient and that, yes, something much more complex, or far fetched is in fact taking place.

 

[Constance]

I have to confess I find the whole concept of a mothership to be mostly an invention from Close Encounters that could have little basis in reality. As much as this concept of scout ships, generational ships, or motherships housing many, many life forms traveling about the galaxy has been embedded in both popular culture and seen as a pragmatic approach in popular Ufology, I don't find the idea appealing nor plausible. But who can see space travel through an alien mind? I suppose anything is possible, but discussing what is reasonable in terms of why come here, how will you survive once you get here, why bother traversing such distances, why return so often for more soil samples, sperm and eggs etc. still plague my mind. There is very little in the traditional ETH scenario that makes much sense at all if we are going to talk about organic life going on such repeated journeys. A one off mission is much more understandable, but not the history we have with UFO's.

What if Earth is not the only stop on the way? It seems logical to me that such large vessels, capable of carrying smaller ships and releasing them for explorations of a series of planets would be capable of remaining in space for extreme lengths of time and exploring extensive regions of space. And, btw, both immense motherships and the release from and return to them of smaller ships were phenomena already sighted by Air Force witnesses {pilots, crew, and radar technicians in the air and on the ground} in 1951-52. In fact they were referred to then as 'motherships'. I read this recently in Keyhoe's second ufo book covering the early 50s, when he was employed at the Pentagon and enabled, for a half year or more, to read some of the AFOSI and Battelle reports.

 

[Constance]

The idea of testing our reactions is an interesting one, but would you really engage in such high risk activity? Giving away your technology in such an irresponsible manner makes no sense. Some might say that what is taking place is in fact a massive, controlled psycho-social study of us

Really, we're not so complicated. How long would our species need to be 'studied' before deciding what to do with us, or whether to do anything with us?
The same reasoning applies to the notion that Rendelsham and the numerous other events at nuclear bases can be explained as psyops 'testing' of the reactions of those on the ground. Over forty+ years?? It makes no sense.

...we perhaps are test subjects of a sort. What we are seeing could be a form of communication or fine art. Whatever it is we remain mostly clueless about it. But there has been much comfort taken from the simplicity of the ETH, I suppose. It just does not add up, that's all.

It's possible that physical abductions do take place at times, for the purpose of hybridizing our species with another, or for another purpose intended to improve us in some fashion. I think much of that phenomenon could, however, involve mental suggestion (for what purpose I can't imagine, other than to prepare our species for future events or changes). But in either case, I don't see how the ETH provides "much comfort" to anyone here.

 

[Constance]

Aside from one or two immense ufos sighted in the air by British pilots during WWII, the first immense (mothership-size) ufo was witnessed by Air Force pilots and ground technicians over the Hanford atomic production facility in 1945 and repeatedly thereafter. I do think that what provoked the ufo waves of the modern era was the development of atomic and nuclear weapons. The history that supports that theory is mind-boggling. I don't think it's we ourselves that are of interest to those who send these craft in our direction, though I do think that whoever the beings in charge are, they are interested in preserving life and environmental balance and health in the universe..

 

[Constance]

to Ufology: I agree with lot of what you are saying here, especially in the tone of 'possibility' that you are expressing. But when looked at as a whole, the entire phenomenon that is, the ETH is sorely lacking and inadequate, and far too abundant and redundant for the supposed prolific series of visitations we have had. Yes, isolated cases have an appearance of aliens visiting from outer space. That's part of the main problem that there is this simulation and mimicry of such things as faeries, greys, motherships, scout ships, or airship pilots from scandinavia and china etc...we can take up the usual anti-ETH arguments I suppose at that thread, but it is fairly much an acceptable position that the ETH as an ideology is simply not sufficient and that, yes, something much more complex, or far fetched is in fact taking place.

It's sufficient to account for the demonstrated physicality, technological superiority, and EM and other control devices disclosed over the 60 decades of the modern phenomenon. Some witnesses might never recover from the shock of their close encounters [you seem to think there are many such witnesses], but it's not proved that those mind-blowing effects are intentionally caused -- and I can't see any rational explanation why they would be intentionally caused. As for the variety of anomalous encounters and experiences over our several-thousand-year history, they don't fit readily into a single category. I'd as soon accept the hypothesis that there are disembodied consciousnesses dwelling on earth, and even 'nature spirits', geniuses of the woods, minions of Gaia, and surviving postmortem human spirits that account for anomalous encounters as the notion that powerfully invasive and controlling other-dimensionals are toying with us.

 

[Burnt State]

Really, we're not so complicated. How long would our species need to be 'studied' before deciding what to do with us, or whether to do anything with us?
The same reasoning applies to the notion that Rendelsham and the numerous other events at nuclear bases can be explained as 'testing' the reactions of those on the ground. Over forty+ years?? It makes no sense.

Yes, we are obviously not very good test subjecs as we have yet to figure out how to get the cheese. But as Wargo suggested in his anti-anti-ETH scenario, the ongong monitoring and interactions with us could very well be its own control system with its own purpose. But as I said, this testing scenario is interesting but not agreeable to me. Surveillance and information gathering through some psycho-social long term study is much more likely, and not so far fetched. But that's just more speculation.

It's possible that physical abductions do take place at times, for the purpose of hybridizing our species with another, or for another purpose intended to improve us in some fashion. I think much of that phenomenon could, however, involve mental suggestion (for what purpose I can't imagine, other than to prepare our species for future events or changes). But in either case, I don't see how the ETH provides "much comfort" to anyone here.

that David Jacobs mode of thinking is not one I can subscribe to at all. Beyond the biological incompatibility, like Starfish breeding with Ducks, I find the entire scenario that supposedly has been repeated long enough that certainly they must have figured it all out i.e. Starfush just xan't breed with ducks.

Yes, the mental suggestions and simulacra of certain biological and technological processes are highly intriguing. The idea of 'preparation' is a little foreboding but I could live with the idea of 'invitation.'

When I say comfort I mean that there's a kind of finality to the problem, as in, "oh you know, it's just all these many different species of aliens wanting to breed with us or wanting to teach us how not to pollute the planet with nuclear waste." In light of the dynamics of the problem, and whose measurements today have yielded little by way of progress, the starting point might have to be a more complicated one. Perhaps in light of more complicated methodologies and denial of ideology we might find ourselves engaged in a study much more complex than what the ETH proposes.

 

[Constance]

Yes, we are obviously not very good test subjecs as we have yet to figure out how to get the cheese. But as Wargo suggested in his anti-anti-ETH scenario, the ongong monitoring and interactions with us could very well be its own control system with its own purpose. But as I said, this testing scenario is interesting but not agreeable to me. Surveillance and information gathering through some psycho-social long term study is much more likely, and not so far fetched. But that's just more speculation.

Why is it more likely? Even we are not that interested in ourselves {witness our current eagerness to erase our sensibility and consciousness in the interests of turning the planet over to AI}. The only hypothesis in that direction that makes sense to me is the idea that older species who've made that mistake might hope to re-engender capacities for affectivity, sensual contact, feeling, and consciousness in themselves by genetic engineering using biological substances, information, capacities and processes still functional in our species.

that David Jacobs mode of thinking is not one I can subscribe to at all. Beyond the biological incompatibility, like Starfish breeding with Ducks, I find the entire scenario that supposedly has been repeated long enough that certainly they must have figured it all out i.e. Starfush just xan't breed with ducks.

You think genetic engineering across species is simple, quick, and error-free? Do you know what kinds of genetic engineering are being done by some of our genetic scientists as we speak? Do you think nanotechnology is safe wherever and however it's applied?

When I say comfort I mean that there's a kind of finality to the problem, as in, "oh you know, it's just all these many different species of aliens wanting to breed with us or wanting to teach us how not to pollute the planet with nuclear waste." In light of the dynamics of the problem, and whose measurements today have yielded little by way of progress, the starting point might have to be a more complicated one. Perhaps in light of more complicated methodologies and denial of ideology we might find ourselves engaged in a study much more complex than what the ETH proposes.

The ETH is not an 'ideology' (at least among sensible and well-informed people) -- it's a hypothesis concerning the percentage of ufo encounters and events yielding data that can be interpreted by contemporary physicists, aeronautical
engineers, and biological scientists. Nor does the ETH and the case histories that support it preclude anyone from striking out in their own direction concerning the 'paranormal' aspects of some ufo witnesses' experiences, especially those having close encounters. It's a big world, with room for many approaches to be engaged as we sit here looking up at the sky (and into the oceans).

 

[Randall]

Wouldn't basic observation of how we already respond inter-culturally to getting each other's crashed technology be enough to understand our psychology? You also are then making an argument for Roswell as a crashed saucer from outset space which I don't think is something that can be hidden from human history. But I understand your point regarding senselessness and how species may experiment irresponsibly with its technology. In my sympathetic vision of the remote possiblity of aliens visiting here, or whatever it is behind the UFO phenomenon, they are indifferent to us and mostly passive in their interactions & observations. Dropping tech from above just doesn't mesh with my Star Trek non-inference policy - too much radical potential for harm in such actions.

I agree with lot of what you are saying here, especially in the tone of 'possibility' that you are expressing. But when looked at as a whole, the entire phenomenon that is, the ETH is sorely lacking and inadequate, and far too abundant and redundant for the supposed prolific series of visitations we have had. Yes, isolated cases have an appearance of aliens visiting from outer space. That's part of the main problem that there is this simulation and mimicry of such things as faeries, greys, motherships, scout ships, or airship pilots from scandinavia and china etc...we can take up the usual anti-ETH arguments I suppose at that thread, but it is fairly much an acceptable position that the ETH as an ideology is simply not sufficient and that, yes, something much more complex, or far fetched is in fact taking place.

Great discussion as always Burnt. My opinion on the seeming incongruities is that assuming that alien visitation is real in the first place, virtually all incongruities can be accounted for by either removing them from their connection to UFOs because they shouldn't have been connected in the first place, or that they can be explained as manifestations of a highly advanced alien technology that uses deceptions and illusions to study our behavior. If we are to step away from the idea of highly advanced alien technology, then where does that leave us? There really isn't any other reasonable explanation. Even the alternate universe hypothesis technically falls within the definition of the ETH. Check out this HD time lapse video made from camera footage from the International Space Station from August to October, 2011. If there was an alien civilization down there, we'd know about it by now.

 

[Randall]

... I'd as soon accept the hypothesis that there are disembodied consciousnesses dwelling on earth, and even 'nature spirits', geniuses of the woods, minions of Gaia, and surviving postmortem human spirits that account for anomalous encounters as the notion that powerfully invasive and controlling other-dimensionals are toying with us ...

We might be in some agreement there because I don't think it's possible for "other-dimensionals" to exist. However, advanced aliens from another world, or even another universe are within the realm of possibility, moreso IMO than any of the options listed above.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Ufology,
Like many who have encounter physical interaction with some type of UFOs ( Yes human made technology Drones /UMV/ can be mistaken and could it be designed to mock the UFOs is plausible indeed) . If other intelligent life has been visiting Earth would they annocuned it I doubt it very much rather be shy or aggressive. Also think it would be different in sizes like our wild life. Speculating ET/Unknown's likely would send teams of investigators with their own defence measures to protect themselves example like some type of unknown technology would be ideal way which they could spy on humanity ( wild life species is excellent way of camouflaging themselves too blend in among our vast range of insects and mammals. Maybe we should not just go looking for ETs in space as it been argued rather look at home among the wild life and minerals in far corners of the Earths Oceans, Mountains, Lakes, Rivers, Canyons, Ice Sheets, and Caves.

 

[Burnt State]

It's sufficient to account for the demonstrated physicality, technological superiority, and EM and other control devices disclosed over the 60 decades of the modern phenomenon. Some witnesses might never recover from the shock of their close encounters [you seem to think there are many such witnesses], but it's not proved that those mind-blowing effects are intentionally caused -- and I can't see any rational explanation why they would be intentionally caused. As for the variety of anomalous encounters and experiences over our several-thousand-year history, they don't fit readily into a single category. I'd as soon accept the hypothesis that there are disembodied consciousnesses dwelling on earth, and even 'nature spirits', geniuses of the woods, minions of Gaia, and surviving postmortem human spirits that account for anomalous encounters as the notion that powerfully invasive and controlling other-dimensionals are toying with us.

yes, I think all of those are interesting possibilities, but you would also have to define "toying with us." for example is the whole Jacobs' alien hybridization abduction program toying with us or just some friendly science? having objects in the sky that are simply observing and collecting information from us or engaged in a passive control system seems more plausible and could account for what we are seeing in the skies as just a long term study of our species & planet, while the rest of the responses to their psych study tests are perhaps confabulations of our own making due to various cultural factors. whether they come from other dimensions or not is not really part of the equation from our perspective. they could be interdimensional, they could be ET, they could be cryptoterrestrials - all with a similar agenda, just to study, collect information through observation and the use of the occasional rat in a trap maze for us to muddle our way through. as a side note, the comparison between ghosts and the UFO appears to be gaining traction though in various contemporary writers on the phenomenon.

as far as ideology and ETH, that's exactly what it is. you hear this repeatedly on the Paracast from both hosts and guests, on other interesting podcasts such as RM and even at the recent CAIPAN conference where the leading thinkers in the field admit we know little about it, and that the ETH ideology is a bad place to start as it's clouding the discussion. so I would say that actually the sensible and well-informed thinkers of the day are in fact disputing the ETH as a starting point and that it is old school thinking to hold on to that theory as a means of primary investigation. Micah Hanks most recently posted, UFO's have no Ontology. The call from Greg Bishop to rework ufological studies and many, many others appear to recognize that there is a better direction to strike out in, and it is a restart for some, and for others, it will be picking up those other various strains of thinking about the phenomenon from the psycho-social to the attempt to gather useful data in a consistent manner that is not tainted.

so as far as striking out in other direction I would suggest to you that it's already happening and that we are seeing those strains of thought more and more frequently. it opens up the discussion to the greater complexity of the phenomenon and it's happening even right here on this forum as this discussion continues to evolve over years. just who exactly are the contemporaries that are saying it's ET anyway, aside from the Greers of the world who want to fill seats and take people's money because they've got the bead on the space brother connection? but I will take your suggestions under serious advisement.

 

[Burnt State]

Great discussion as always Burnt. My opinion on the seeming incongruities is that assuming that alien visitation is real in the first place, virtually all incongruities can be accounted for by either removing them from their connection to UFOs because they shouldn't have been connected in the first place, or that they can be explained as manifestations of a highly advanced alien technology that uses deceptions and illusions to study our behavior. If we are to step away from the idea of highly advanced alien technology, then where does that leave us? There really isn't any other reasonable explanation. Even the alternate universe hypothesis technically falls within the definition of the ETH. Check out this HD time lapse video made from camera footage from the International Space Station from August to October, 2011. If there was an alien civilization down there, we'd know about it by now.

what a beautiful video - ominous, sacred and startling all at once. and yes, you'd think if we were living alongside another dimensional life form, or physical life form that we would already know about it. yet, the universe continues to unravel itself the more and more we study and pursue knowledge. increasingly we keep finding new life forms living where we thought they couldn't. quantum reality poses paradoxical problems for us and our localized experience of relativity. so I would say we don't quite yet have a handle on all there is on our own planet or even the immediate vicinity of our next door neighbours. much always remains hidden and just below the surface of appearances. not that I want to invoke Nessie, and Bigfoot, the Chupacabra population or the nefarious entities behind cattle mutilation, ghosts, the Djinn, dwarves, other cryptological possibilities, even god, or what else could be on the planet with us, but we do have this rich history or either inventing or sensing an "other" that is with us. so i remain open to possibilities and as you say, not so absolutist or certain about things. it could be this and it could be that, but one thing we can do is begin to find a better methodology that is not so absolutist in nature. i know you have always said that alien does not have to mean it's from outer space, it's just alien to us and i think that is a very acceptable way of thinking about the phenomenon as it is "alien" to us and perhaps we need to more deeply explore our relationship to the alien other, what it does to us, for us and how can we learn to see it and talk about it with increasing clarity and accuracy in a shared manner.

 

[Burnt State]

from R. Haines at CAIPAN: "Unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP) continue to be reported by pilots and air traffic controllers around the world. (Bravo and Castillo, 2010; Clark, 1996; Ferguson 2013; Guzman and Salazar, 2001; Haines; 2000: Haines & Weinstein, 2001; Randles, 1998; Sillard, 2007; Smith, 1997; von Ludwiger,1999; Weinstein, 2007) Governments and private individuals have also continued to try to discover their core identity as numerous books and journal articles will verify. (COMETA, 1999; Project Hessdalen, 2014) Nevertheless, little more is known today about the true nature of UAP than was known in the 1950s when they came under scrutiny by many governments because of their marked increase in appearances particularly around nuclear facilities of all kinds (Hastings, 2007; 2008), secret military flights and operations, (Saunders, 1968), intercontinental ballistic missile launch sites (Crane, 1988; Hastings, 2007; NICAP, 2009) and earth’s power-generating plants. UAP also appear without warning near airplanes in flight which is the primary subject of this paper."
I have to ask, aside from the actual lack of serious dedicated science that has been missing, why else is it that we have learned little about the subject? Has our orientation been wrong? Have we allowed its elusive nature and mimicry to confuse us and fall into the ETH trap so that we don't ask bigger questions of the phenomenon and all involved that work to define the phenomenon as we know it. Beyond the witness and the stimulus there are many other factors at work that we have yet to juxtapose up against each other to gain some clarity. Perhaps when you look at the themes of the CAIPAN conference you can see that we are still at the beginning of things: getting better data from witnesses, creating better approaches to recording observations, creating more useful methodologies and tapping into more complex warehouses of data banks to find patterns not yet discovered. Talk about slow going.

 

[Randall]

what a beautiful video - ominous, sacred and startling all at once. and yes, you'd think if we were living alongside another dimensional life form, or physical life form that we would already know about it. yet, the universe continues to unravel itself the more and more we study and pursue knowledge. increasingly we keep finding new life forms living where we thought they couldn't. quantum reality poses paradoxical problems for us and our localized experience of relativity. so I would say we don't quite yet have a handle on all there is on our own planet or even the immediate vicinity of our next door neighbours.

I'm not saying that some of the ideas quantum physicists have laid out haven't proven to be useful in the real world. Some have. But we need to be really careful about extrapolating from there into the paranormal and supernatural or we risk walking off the ledge and falling into the swamp of quantum-woo; and you already know what I think of "dimensional life forms", as in the idea that some life form can exist independently of our spatial dimensions and move between its realm and ours. It's nonsense.

... much always remains hidden and just below the surface of appearances. not that I want to invoke Nessie, and Bigfoot, the Chupacabra population or the nefarious entities behind cattle mutilation, ghosts, the Djinn, dwarves, other cryptological possibilities, even god, or what else could be on the planet with us, but we do have this rich history or either inventing or sensing an "other" that is with us. so i remain open to possibilities and as you say, not so absolutist or certain about things. it could be this and it could be that, but one thing we can do is begin to find a better methodology that is not so absolutist in nature. i know you have always said that alien does not have to mean it's from outer space, it's just alien to us and i think that is a very acceptable way of thinking about the phenomenon as it is "alien" to us and perhaps we need to more deeply explore our relationship to the alien other, what it does to us, for us and how can we learn to see it and talk about it with increasing clarity and accuracy in a shared manner.

Great attitude, and for my part, I reiterate, that critical thinking seems to me to be the best choice for learning how to, " talk about it with increasing clarity and accuracy in a shared manner." The more the better .