Kay'-Up to this Point

[Ron Collins]

I'm all for gun control, as are most police officers I know. I wouldn't advocate flying black helicopters into everyone's back yard who owns a gun, however. :

I wanted to chime in a second. I am also in favor of responsible gun control through licensing. In the scenarios I like, a person has to have a background check, take a safety and operation class, qualify, pass both a written and practical test, and re-qualify every 3-5 years to retain their license. You could then only buy ammunition if you had a valid firearm license. Then I would advocate a zero tolerance enforcement policy. I would also want to require individual firearms to cary a registration and title similar to an automobile. The owner would have to register and transfer the title of the firearm to the new licensed owner.

Now, this just makes things more responsible. Personally, I think it would help to curb accidents and improper use do to a combination of stupidity and ignorance. Not necessarily effective in stopping violent crime. Its been said before but I, a political fence sitter, will say it again. Guns do NOT kill people, PEOPLE kill people. Violence is a social problem. Getting rid of guns is not treating the problem it is addressing a symptom. Just as Australia found out, banning firearms does not stop violent crime. People just grab more arcane weapons. Knives, blunt objects, or whatever the can grab.

Ultimately, you can have my guns long before you pry it from my cold dead hand. You just need to submit a bill amending the constitution and making the removal of one of my Constitutionally protected liberties pass review in both houses. Then manage to get 75% of congress to agree to amend the Constitution in a way that limits my freedoms and sell that to their constituency. I won't hold my breath. Somehow, I think disclosure will happen long before then.

 

[Anaximander]

Hey Ron,

Your post reminded me of a comic I once saw about the predicament faced by gun grabbers:

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Guns do NOT kill people, PEOPLE kill people.

That's absolutely true. However, guns do make it easier to kill people.

Here's an interesting table regarding gun related deaths per capita: Murders with firearms (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

 

[Ron Collins]

That's absolutely true. However, guns do make it easier to kill people.

Here's an interesting table regarding gun related deaths per capita: Murders with firearms (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

OK, lets use the statistics page you referenced to do a bit deeper exploration.

Look at the "Gun Violence > Homicides > Firearm Homicide Rate > Per 100,000 population" link.

This is also very interesting.
The U.S. (where owning a firearm is legal and are easy to procure) stand at #24 on the list. At last count there are 195 countries in the world. What I find interesting is that in the top 50 homicides by guns per 100,000 population list is that there are several countries that have far more stringent control and registration laws/punishment that appear in the top 1/4 of the list.

For instance:

The U.K. arrives at #46 on the list.
(All guns have to be registered. You have to demonstrate that you have a "good reason" to own one and that you can be trusted with it. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where guns will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a licence be issued. )

Australia at #43
(Handguns are only available to a shooting club members and that is only after they endure a strict probation period. You have to have a permit to get a rifle and demonstrate why you are applying for a license. The quickest they can get a license to own a firearm of any type is 28 days. An independent 2008 study on the effects of the firearm buybacks by Dr Wang-Sheng Lee and Dr Sandy Suardi of Melbourne University’s Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research studied the data with more sophisticated methods and concluded: "Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.")

Canada at #44
(after a costly 2 billion dollars the registry program is largely considered a failure and being dissolved with ZBill C391. Currently you have to register each firearm, and have a license, PAL, pass a safety course in order to own a firearm that is not restricted. Shootings generally account for around 30% of murders in Canada, with stabbings generally equal or lower before 1995, when stabbings outnumbered shootings. From 1995 to 2007, stabbings have outnumbered shootings in six years (1995, 1998, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2007) with shootings outnumbering stabbings in the remaining (1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006). Hmmm, perhaps we should ban cutlery.)

Finland at #30
(In Finland there are 32 privately owned firearms per 100 civilians according to the Finnish Ministry of the Interior. You must have a license to own and for each individual firearm. It must be stored in a locked away and the owner, by law, has to take steps to ensure the firearm is not easily stolen. If an owner has several firearms they must buy a certified safe and have it all inspected by the police. In addition to this the owner must demonstrate a reason to own one in the first place.)

Germany at #49
(They require a license for ownership, an insurance policy, and must demonstrate that they have a way to securely lock up the firearm at home. They do allow carry permits with requirements consistent with that of the U.S.)

Russia at #5
(According to Russia's gun laws, Russian citizens can buy smoothbore shotguns, such as the Saiga 12, gas pistols, or revolvers shooting rubber bullets. Safe use of this arsenal for five years allows purchase of a rifle or carbine.)


So my point s that banning or a concerted ownership reduction effort in weapons proliferation for law abiding citizens will not eliminate or in most cases even significantly alter a pattern of gun violence. Look at the statistics on overall murders and this is even more apparent.

U.S = #5
Russia = #2
UK = #14
Germany = #19
Australia = #36
Canada = #30
Finland - #58

With the exception of Finland (by a thin margin), the rest are in the top 1/4 of the world. Thus, i conclude that instead of focusing on an inanimate object direct just 1/2 of the funding you have set aside for regulation and enforcement and use it to treat the societal issues causing violent behavior.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

OK, lets use the statistics page you referenced to do a bit deeper exploration.

Look at the "Gun Violence > Homicides > Firearm Homicide Rate > Per 100,000 population" link.

This is also very interesting.
The U.S. (where owning a firearm is legal and are easy to procure) stand at #24 on the list. At last count there are 195 countries in the world. What I find interesting is that in the top 50 homicides by guns per 100,000 population list is that there are several countries that have far more stringent control and registration laws/punishment that appear in the top 1/4 of the list.

For instance:

The U.K. arrives at #46 on the list.
(All guns have to be registered. You have to demonstrate that you have a "good reason" to own one and that you can be trusted with it. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where guns will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a licence be issued. )

Australia at #43
(Handguns are only available to a shooting club members and that is only after they endure a strict probation period. You have to have a permit to get a rifle and demonstrate why you are applying for a license. The quickest they can get a license to own a firearm of any type is 28 days. An independent 2008 study on the effects of the firearm buybacks by Dr Wang-Sheng Lee and Dr Sandy Suardi of Melbourne University’s Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research studied the data with more sophisticated methods and concluded: "Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.")

Canada at #44
(after a costly 2 billion dollars the registry program is largely considered a failure and being dissolved with ZBill C391. Currently you have to register each firearm, and have a license, PAL, pass a safety course in order to own a firearm that is not restricted. Shootings generally account for around 30% of murders in Canada, with stabbings generally equal or lower before 1995, when stabbings outnumbered shootings. From 1995 to 2007, stabbings have outnumbered shootings in six years (1995, 1998, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2007) with shootings outnumbering stabbings in the remaining (1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006). Hmmm, perhaps we should ban cutlery.)

Finland at #30
(In Finland there are 32 privately owned firearms per 100 civilians according to the Finnish Ministry of the Interior. You must have a license to own and for each individual firearm. It must be stored in a locked away and the owner, by law, has to take steps to ensure the firearm is not easily stolen. If an owner has several firearms they must buy a certified safe and have it all inspected by the police. In addition to this the owner must demonstrate a reason to own one in the first place.)

Germany at #49
(They require a license for ownership, an insurance policy, and must demonstrate that they have a way to securely lock up the firearm at home. They do allow carry permits with requirements consistent with that of the U.S.)

Russia at #5
(According to Russia's gun laws, Russian citizens can buy smoothbore shotguns, such as the Saiga 12, gas pistols, or revolvers shooting rubber bullets. Safe use of this arsenal for five years allows purchase of a rifle or carbine.)


So my point s that banning or a concerted ownership reduction effort in weapons proliferation for law abiding citizens will not eliminate or in most cases even significantly alter a pattern of gun violence. Look at the statistics on overall murders and this is even more apparent.

U.S = #5
Russia = #2
UK = #14
Germany = #19
Australia = #36
Canada = #30
Finland - #58

With the exception of Finland (by a thin margin), the rest are in the top 1/4 of the world. Thus, i conclude that instead of focusing on an inanimate object direct just 1/2 of the funding you have set aside for regulation and enforcement and use it to treat the societal issues causing violent behavior.

Way to make a point by throwing tons of numbers at it. I feel like you're trying to sell me an extended warranty
Simple fact: The countries with stronger gun control laws have less gun violence per capita.

 

[Decker]

Way to make a point by throwing tons of numbers at it. I feel like you're trying to sell me an extended warranty
Simple fact: The countries with stronger gun control laws have less gun violence per capita.

Right you are AoI, just like Mexico where the citizens do not have a right of firearm ownership. A whole shit-load less violence there.

Decker

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Right you are AoI, just like Mexico where the citizens do not have a right of firearm ownership. A whole shit-load less violence there.

Decker

That actually not true - Mexicans do have a right to own firearms.

From the source of all knowledge (Wikipedia):

"Gun politics in Mexico have resulted in some of the strictest gun laws in the world. It is in many ways similar to the United Kingdom, except with much more severe prison terms for even the smallest gun law violations. On the other hand, possession of non-military-caliber small arms by citizens is largely a non-issue. Gun politics are thus not the major issue in Mexico that they are in the neighboring United States, since few Mexican citizens have any gun law difficulties."

Angelo

 

[saucerwench]

I agree about the politics. I find it hard to listen sometimes because of that.

It wouldn't be any different if it were "standard" left or far-left politics. The whole right-wing/left-wing thing is a clown show that just distracts us from what's really going on. Right-wing and left-wing thought well... isn't. Both the right and the left are loose groupings of irrelevant nonsense linked together by herd effects.

Both the right and the left are destroying America. I find it painful to listen to either side's idiotic drivel.

I actually --somewhat-- agree with you. EVERY time I listen to my otherwise favorite 'progressive' media talkers, they often begin thir defense of the Left with the 'social' things on the Left, such as a woman's right to abortion (I'm not pro abortion, I don't think it should be outlawed, for cases of horrible circumstances though, but I think late-term, is murder in the First Degree of a child.) Gay marriage, (cringe...) filling universities with 'alternative' "studies" weirdness that does not help produce more engineers and scientists, while the Asian world proceeds light years ahead of us. I wish my fellow Leftists would --always-- FIRST and foremost emphasise stuff like that, health care is a RIGHT, not a luxury. Corporations are NOT a person. Tax breaks for the wealthiest. Allowing jobs to be outsourced until no American has a job. Corporate welfare (Monsanto and it's HFCS in EVERYTHING). Media and food control ownership in the hands of about five corrupt men.

 

[Ron Collins]

The countries with stronger gun control laws have less gun violence per capita.

I can't disagree with you on this point. I would just say that a better phraseology would be "Gun Regulation". In my opinion the best way to do this is, as in anything, is to start with education and assessment. But I think the danger here is to say "If we just get rid of the guns we would severely curb violent crime". This is why the Australian experiences is so relevant. People just grabbed different weapons. Again, lets treat the actual problem instead of concentrating our efforts on revoking a civil liberty.

 

[Kieran]

"Guns have a firing trigger and only Human beings have the will, and the capacity to pull that trigger on another Human being!! I can Guarantee you each country around the World, and even countries, that would have strict Control's, on who can own a Firearm. Those Countries do still have lot of Gun Crime per head of Population. And people who desire a Gun for whatever purpose, can and will get one, if their motivated enough?

" Violence by way of a Gun can often can be traced back to a standard of living, a person experiences everyday. It is no wonder you see lot of Violence in Mexico 'today' between Gangs on the streets. A large number of youths living in Mexico, have no future, and the gangs manipulate this young uneducated poor youths. By offering them Money to do Drug deals for them, or carry out certain Hits on rival members of other Gangs.

You also have lot of Gun Violence within minority Groups inside the United States. Guns is the cause of the Violence, but it actually has lot to do with the standard of living. And Yes often a persons willingness to kill or commit crime. Has to be factored into it.

"Gun Crime does not occur as much in Well-educated Western Countries, as it does, in Poor Countries were Standards of Education are lower there. I heard that on the Radio once. While the figures might give that impression. The Fact is. every city that you can travel to around the World, will have some type of Gun crime, unless the people are Zombies and can't move!!
But what you would find is. The crime for the most part is, usually committed by Individuals who's upbringing was bad, or they were brought up in, and i got say it Folks. A' SHIT hole.

We could debate this issue till forever. And i have only touched on one important element of Gun Crime that often gets overlooked in the media.

 

[cottonzway]

Interesting debate.

I am not a "gun guy" myself. but I am a firm believer in people having the RIGHTS to protect themselves. The US Constitution made it as difficult as possible for tyranny to take place because of the 2nd amendment. Every single hegemony in history failed and none of them had the rights for their citizens to have firearms. I think the founders had this part right.

 

[Decker]

This will be the last word in this thread ... lets get back to paranormal subjects.

When the question of "gun control" or "gun confiscation" is raised I just think of two things ... the first is after the National Socialists (Nazi's) came to power in Germany, one of the first things they did was to confiscate personal firearms. Everything then came under state control. Boy, I will bet the German Jews were really happy about that when the Nazi's decided to round up the Jews. Even if they wanted to resist they couldn't.

After the end of the second world war, a surviving Japanese Admiral was asked if the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy ever considered invading the west coast of the U.S. He said no, the main reason was the knowledge that Americans were armed with private weapons.

Oh yes, one more thing. When the British were "on the ropes" at the beginning of WWII, recall the Nazi's were bombing British cities into dust and the Brit's were expecting a Nazi invasion at any time ... Winston Churchill went to President FDR and requested the Americans please send over small arms so the Brits could arm the populace. Guess where FDR went? He made an appeal to American citizens to please donate hunting rifles and shotguns so we could send them to the dis-armed Brits. That little piece of trivia should make all of you think ... especially you British subjects. (Notice ... I did say British subjects.)

Decker