Let's solve a major component of the UFO mystery once and for all...

[jratcliff]

So, it occurs to me, that we have it within our power to resolve with absolute certainty a major component of the UFO mystery.

Within the pantheon of the UFO mystery lies three major components:

(1) UFOs are something 'other' (aliens, interdimensional, shifts in consciousness, demons, angels, tulpas, or weird shit we can't even think of).

(2) Psychological operations by intelligence agencies.

(3) Real live technology built by men and women just like you an me, with our tax dollars, by the likes of Boeing and other major defense contractors.

Now, we can't do a damned thing about one or two. But three...that is one we can solve.

If we have really built honest to goodness UFOs then they represent physical technology that does not violate any principles of scientific theory. These are real craft in time and space that don't have anything to do with weird interdimensional hoodoo or any other bizarro nonsense.

Unlike run of the mill non-human origin UFOs (type 1) these man made craft represent something we can grasp, hold, understand, resolve, reveal and ultimately know with absolutely certainty within our lifetime.

In discussions of the UFO phenomenon I am often puzzled by how many people will just rattle off 'oh, it's probably something we built'.

I am puzzled because I have yet to see any evidence to support that theory.

I am not only prepared, but literally resigned, to the fact that we will probably never know or understand anything about the true unknown mystery behind the 'real' (type 1) UFO phenomenon.

On the other hand, if my neighbors, friends, brother, and tax dollars have all been at work building real live UFOs that exist in time and space and fly around, escorted by 23 helicopters, that is something we absolutely can, with thorough research and investigation, resolve.

Alluding back to component #2 (psy-ops) if we do have our own man-made UFOs then it is perfectly reasonable to suspect that things like MJ-12 and other nonsense exist primarily to throw people off the scent of investigating the real, hard, cold, nuts and bolts craft we (collectively as tax payers) have already built and flown in the past decades.

Now, personally, I do not believe we have done so. I see no compelling evidence to support this theory. Yet, I find it strange that in the face of virtually no evidence to support this theory, nearly everyone you speak to in the UFO community seems to believe that this is a known fact.

Just how is that so?

Let us examine the 'evidence' to support the notion that our military contractors have built honest to God flying saucers which exhibit flight characteristics that appear to violate the currently known laws of physics.

Evidence For:

(1) Dr. Steven Greer says he knows this as fact and all of his insiders tell him so. His insiders also tell him that not only do we have ARVs (alien reproduction vehicles) we have also created our own manufactured alien beings.

Needless to say, I don't find this line of evidence particularly compelling.

(2) Ben Rich of Skunkworks fame said so. That's an interesting statement from Ben Rich, but then people say all kinds of wacky unsupported things (see previous example)

(3) The Cash-Lundrum case. Probably the only single piece of compelling evidence that a UFO might well have been something of 'ours'. Sure, there are plenty of reports of jets being scrambled to chase UFOs (and always fail) but this is the only instance where a massive fleet of helicopters was escorting one.

There is a real mystery in the Cash-Lundrum case, and it is definitely suggestive. However, it is just this one case and it alone is not conclusive.

(4) I don't have a 'four'. I not aware of any compelling evidence to support the idea that we have our own UFOs. Do we have secret military aircraft? Sure, of course. But UFOs that violate the known laws of physics as we currently understand it? Not so much...

So, what is the evidence *against* us having our very own home built UFOs?

(1) The reported flight characteristics of UFOs violate the known laws of physics. There exists no known published scientific theory or experimental evidence that even begins to explain the behavior reported by these UFOs (think the Phoenix lights case, for example.)

(2) People keep secrets. Your damn sure they do. But scientists generally do not. In the scientific world it is 'publish or perish'. The scientific community does not keep things particularly hush hush. If a technology existed which could support these kinds of propulsion there would be at least some hint of it in the scientific literature and community. Nothing like this exists.

(3) People keep secrets. Yes they do. But, over time, some people talk. They become disillusioned, disenfranchised, or just plain human and want to let someone know. If we are building our own UFOs, this isn't a matter of just a handful of people knowing about it. We are talking about tens of thousands of engineers, and soldiers. In the Cash-Lundrum case, how many people must have known about that operation? Obviously everyone flying the helicopters, not to mention whoever was flying the UFO. How about all of the people who designed and built that UFO?

So, now we are expected to believe that throughout the entire military industrial complex we have tens upon tens of thousands of engineers, scientists, and military personal and not *ONE* not a single one ever let leak even the tiniest tale?

Look how much mythology we have generated around Roswell, Socorro and other classic UFO cases. There should easily be just as much, if not vastly more, mythology built around the men and women who designed, built, and flew these alleged American made UFOs.

But, all we have is Dr. Steven Greer saying "I have inside sources."

That's hardly compelling evidence.

And, here we are talking about more than just stories but real hard and cold technology. It doesn't prove anything for someone to simply tell a tall tale claiming they 'worked on a UFO at Area 51'. That's fairly useless.

But, if instead, someone actually reveals real scientific knowledge, theory, and mathematics behind this technology, that is really quite something else.

So, do we have that? No way in hell. All we have it Bob Lazar telling bullshit stories about Element 115.


........ So there it is...

Have we built UFOs with our tax dollars? Yes or No?

If the answer in reality is yes, then this, unlike the true mysterious UFO phenomenon of truly 'unknown' origin and source by 'other', can be answered.

We can solve the man-made UFO problem. If it exists, it can be solved. If we are talking about true nuts & bolts man made UFOs, made by Boeing, Lockheed, and other defense contractors, we can get to the bottom of this.

It was designed by your neighbors, friends, and co-workers.

Maybe, just maybe, the UFO community at large should stop chasing shadows, stop falling for psychological operations to throw people off the scent, and instead concentrate on real nuts & bolts UFOs that can be answered in our lifetime through hard edged science and investigative journalism.

Let's get to work guys.....or...maybe the whole idea of us having our own UFOs is a load of horseshit and we should stop using it as an 'explanation' for the mystery behind the 'real' phenomenon.

John

 

[bobheck]

Wait, you actually think any of us will DO anything? Pfft.

 

[jratcliff]

Wait, you actually think any of us will DO anything? Pfft.

The point of the thread is to focus, as a topic of conversation, something which actually can be solved.

Let's hear them. What are the examples in favor of home-grown-UFOs and what are those against? Let's weigh them.

I'm extremely skeptical about the whole thing but I'm also willing to listen to the supposed evidence.

Things I will not consider as real evidence are:

Nazi UFO stories
Dr. Steven Greer
John Lear
Bob Lazar

I realize that doesn't leave much left....

 

[Trajanus]

Let's hear them. What are the examples in favor of home-grown-UFOs and what are those against? Let's weigh them.

Many UFOs have been seen in association with nonhuman entities. In addition, if they're homegrown, I don't see why conventional stuff is even produced anymore.

Things I will not consider as real evidence are:
Nazi UFO stories
Dr. Steven Greer
John Lear
Bob Lazar

I agree, especially about the first three.

 

[Kieran]

So, it occurs to me, that we have it within our power to resolve with absolute certainty a major component of the UFO mystery.

Within the pantheon of the UFO mystery lies three major components:

(1) UFOs are something 'other' (aliens, interdimensional, shifts in consciousness, demons, angels, tulpas, or weird shit we can't even think of).

(2) Psychological operations by intelligence agencies.

(3) Real live technology built by men and women just like you an me, with our tax dollars, by the likes of Boeing and other major defense contractors.

Now, we can't do a damned thing about one or two. But three...that is one we can solve.

If we have really built honest to goodness UFOs then they represent physical technology that does not violate any principles of scientific theory. These are real craft in time and space that don't have anything to do with weird interdimensional hoodoo or any other bizarro nonsense.

Unlike run of the mill non-human origin UFOs (type 1) these man made craft represent something we can grasp, hold, understand, resolve, reveal and ultimately know with absolutely certainty within our lifetime.

In discussions of the UFO phenomenon I am often puzzled by how many people will just rattle off 'oh, it's probably something we built'.

I am puzzled because I have yet to see any evidence to support that theory.

I am not only prepared, but literally resigned, to the fact that we will probably never know or understand anything about the true unknown mystery behind the 'real' (type 1) UFO phenomenon.

On the other hand, if my neighbors, friends, brother, and tax dollars have all been at work building real live UFOs that exist in time and space and fly around, escorted by 23 helicopters, that is something we absolutely can, with thorough research and investigation, resolve.

Alluding back to component #2 (psy-ops) if we do have our own man-made UFOs then it is perfectly reasonable to suspect that things like MJ-12 and other nonsense exist primarily to throw people off the scent of investigating the real, hard, cold, nuts and bolts craft we (collectively as tax payers) have already built and flown in the past decades.

Now, personally, I do not believe we have done so. I see no compelling evidence to support this theory. Yet, I find it strange that in the face of virtually no evidence to support this theory, nearly everyone you speak to in the UFO community seems to believe that this is a known fact.

Just how is that so?

Let us examine the 'evidence' to support the notion that our military contractors have built honest to God flying saucers which exhibit flight characteristics that appear to violate the currently known laws of physics.

Evidence For:

(1) Dr. Steven Greer says he knows this as fact and all of his insiders tell him so. His insiders also tell him that not only do we have ARVs (alien reproduction vehicles) we have also created our own manufactured alien beings.

Needless to say, I don't find this line of evidence particularly compelling.

(2) Ben Rich of Skunkworks fame said so. That's an interesting statement from Ben Rich, but then people say all kinds of wacky unsupported things (see previous example)

(3) The Cash-Lundrum case. Probably the only single piece of compelling evidence that a UFO might well have been something of 'ours'. Sure, there are plenty of reports of jets being scrambled to chase UFOs (and always fail) but this is the only instance where a massive fleet of helicopters was escorting one.

There is a real mystery in the Cash-Lundrum case, and it is definitely suggestive. However, it is just this one case and it alone is not conclusive.

(4) I don't have a 'four'. I not aware of any compelling evidence to support the idea that we have our own UFOs. Do we have secret military aircraft? Sure, of course. But UFOs that violate the known laws of physics as we currently understand it? Not so much...

So, what is the evidence *against* us having our very own home built UFOs?

(1) The reported flight characteristics of UFOs violate the known laws of physics. There exists no known published scientific theory or experimental evidence that even begins to explain the behavior reported by these UFOs (think the Phoenix lights case, for example.)

(2) People keep secrets. Your damn sure they do. But scientists generally do not. In the scientific world it is 'publish or perish'. The scientific community does not keep things particularly hush hush. If a technology existed which could support these kinds of propulsion there would be at least some hint of it in the scientific literature and community. Nothing like this exists.

(3) People keep secrets. Yes they do. But, over time, some people talk. They become disillusioned, disenfranchised, or just plain human and want to let someone know. If we are building our own UFOs, this isn't a matter of just a handful of people knowing about it. We are talking about tens of thousands of engineers, and soldiers. In the Cash-Lundrum case, how many people must have known about that operation? Obviously everyone flying the helicopters, not to mention whoever was flying the UFO. How about all of the people who designed and built that UFO?

So, now we are expected to believe that throughout the entire military industrial complex we have tens upon tens of thousands of engineers, scientists, and military personal and not *ONE* not a single one ever let leak even the tiniest tale?

Look how much mythology we have generated around Roswell, Socorro and other classic UFO cases. There should easily be just as much, if not vastly more, mythology built around the men and women who designed, built, and flew these alleged American made UFOs.

But, all we have is Dr. Steven Greer saying "I have inside sources."

That's hardly compelling evidence.

And, here we are talking about more than just stories but real hard and cold technology. It doesn't prove anything for someone to simply tell a tall tale claiming they 'worked on a UFO at Area 51'. That's fairly useless.

But, if instead, someone actually reveals real scientific knowledge, theory, and mathematics behind this technology, that is really quite something else.

So, do we have that? No way in hell. All we have it Bob Lazar telling bullshit stories about Element 115.


........ So there it is...

Have we built UFOs with our tax dollars? Yes or No?

If the answer in reality is yes, then this, unlike the true mysterious UFO phenomenon of truly 'unknown' origin and source by 'other', can be answered.

We can solve the man-made UFO problem. If it exists, it can be solved. If we are talking about true nuts & bolts man made UFOs, made by Boeing, Lockheed, and other defense contractors, we can get to the bottom of this.

It was designed by your neighbors, friends, and co-workers.

Maybe, just maybe, the UFO community at large should stop chasing shadows, stop falling for psychological operations to throw people off the scent, and instead concentrate on real nuts & bolts UFOs that can be answered in our lifetime through hard edged science and investigative journalism.

Let's get to work guys.....or...maybe the whole idea of us having our own UFOs is a load of horseshit and we should stop using it as an 'explanation' for the mystery behind the 'real' phenomenon.

John[/QUOTE

Well your number 1 suggestion is the most accepted. number 2 probably happened, more than a possibility, and 3 is also a possibility if you believe UFOs crashed and where recovered with no crashes the idea is not realistic.

Look nobody can say for sure your third suggestion has happened. We be fools to proclaim such a thing. We have a number of stories like Roswell, where it was said people in uniform probably American military? 'recovered a craft not from our world?

Now the whole question is, did it happen like i outlined or did something more mundane happen at Roswell( human created experiment or testing of something) If we found answers to the Roswell story and we found out the Roswell was not true, it was not an Alien spacecraft recovery operation. Then you can prove positive remove the idea for me at least the whole notion of human created craft using Et technology.

If they have recovered, an alien craft and have hide the Roswell craft in a secure location somewhere. My bet is it probably less the number you outlined. A couple of hundred people probably know of it's existence and in my opinion some of those people have seen it and know of it and others in the exclusive group, have probably been working on it for a number of years. I say it very unlikely this technology, if was repeated ever got beyond this group and given to industry like Philip Corso outlined in his book. Well it just my opinion at the end of the day.

 

[Trajanus]

(1) UFOs are something 'other' (aliens, interdimensional, shifts in consciousness, demons, angels, tulpas, or weird shit we can't even think of).

(2) Psychological operations by intelligence agencies.

(3) Real live technology built by men and women just like you an me, with our tax dollars, by the likes of Boeing and other major defense contractors.

Now, we can't do a damned thing about one or two. But three...that is one we can solve.

Why only that? It is presumably just as secret as an ET phenomenon, or, the latter might be conclusively demonstrated someday.

Unlike run of the mill non-human origin UFOs (type 1) these man made craft represent something we can grasp, hold, understand, resolve, reveal and ultimately know with absolutely certainty within our lifetime.

What if retrieved material, from Ubatuba and elsewhere, is ET?

In discussions of the UFO phenomenon I am often puzzled by how many people will just rattle off 'oh, it's probably something we built'.

I am puzzled because I have yet to see any evidence to support that theory.

No evidence AFAIK that we could do it as a wholly original undertaking.

I am not only prepared, but literally resigned, to the fact that we will probably never know or understand anything about the true unknown mystery behind the 'real' (type 1) UFO phenomenon.

Too pessimistic--what if retrieved material represents nuts and bolts ET craft? That, and ET stiffs could teach us plenty.

Now, personally, I do not believe we have done so. I see no compelling evidence to support this theory. Yet, I find it strange that in the face of virtually no evidence to support this theory, nearly everyone you speak to in the UFO community seems to believe that this is a known fact.

No, it's not Friedman's view. He thinks they're ET. So does Rudiak and Randle etc.

(1) Dr. Steven Greer says he knows this as fact and all of his insiders tell him so. His insiders also tell him that not only do we have ARVs (alien reproduction vehicles) we have also created our own manufactured alien beings.

Needless to say, I don't find this line of evidence particularly compelling.

Sure, Greer is a cook but let's not judge the ETH by just his take.

(3) The Cash-Lundrum case. Probably the only single piece of compelling evidence that a UFO might well have been something of 'ours'. Sure, there are plenty of reports of jets being scrambled to chase UFOs (and always fail) but this is the only instance where a massive fleet of helicopters was escorting one.

In fact this is just one of at least four dfferent interpretations. Schuessler, in fact, was told that it was ET, being watched or monitored by choppers.

So, what is the evidence *against* us having our very own home built UFOs?

The occupants are often very alien looking, for one thing.

(2) People keep secrets. Your damn sure they do. But scientists generally do not. In the scientific world it is 'publish or perish'. The scientific community does not keep things particularly hush hush. If a technology existed which could support these kinds of propulsion there would be at least some hint of it in the scientific literature and community

The manhatten project was hush hush.

(3) People keep secrets. Yes they do. But, over time, some people talk. They become disillusioned, disenfranchised, or just plain human and want to let someone know. If we are building our own UFOs, this isn't a matter of just a handful of people knowing about it. We are talking about tens of thousands of engineers, and soldiers. In the Cash-Lundrum case, how many people must have known about that operation? Obviously everyone flying the helicopters,

AFAK no military man ever divulged the Ultra secret even long after it was no longer vital to keep it.

Have we built UFOs with our tax dollars? Yes or No?

If we have, it was via reverse engineering.

 

[Gareth]

I dont see how we can 'solve' anything. We can discuss and offer our opinions.

My opinion is that we (humans) have built certain technologies that use 'anti-grav' type propulsion. Thats as far as Ill go with that, and I dont claim it was reverse engineered or whatever. I just think there is human built stuff out there.

Nick Cooks book 'The Hunt for Zeropoint', as well as other material seem to suggest something like that has happened.

 

[jratcliff]

In general I think people are missing the point of this thread.

The idea is this. If there are such a thing as Man Made UFOs, then we can find out the truth behind this particular mystery.

As we should all be well aware by now we probably are never going to figure out the truth behind any UFOs which are the product of non-human intelligence. It goes behind even an intellectual issue, or data gathering , we literally may lack the ability to understand them due to our limited consciousness and/or senses.

On the other hand, real-live man made UFOs which conform to the laws of physics as we understand them, and exist in ordinary time and space, can be solved.

If there are man-made UFOs, then tens of thousands of scientists, engineers, and military personal are privy to this information.

All anyone has to do is leak some aspect of the technology which can be independently reproduced and we can poke a major hole in this riddle.

Personally, I find this potential very exciting. Maybe the 'real' UFOs are not nuts & bolts, but if there are any out there built by Boeing or Lockheed you can be damned sure that they are.

John

 

[Schuyler]

Well, fella, I think that the point of this thread is to "solve the mystery in 20 words or less," something we have been discussing for, oh, maybe 50 years or so. Of course, I have no knowledge of your background in this, but of you've read back a ways in this forum you will realize that we all have discussed every aspect of this phenomenon, every nuance, every case, and every possibility yet conceived of what is going on. We've discussed the ETH, the ITH, faeiries, daemons, angels, God, and Boeing itself (not really mutually exclusive). We've discussed frauds, hucksters, well-meaning but schizophrenic goof balls, and rational people reporting a phenomenon. Not only that, there are something like 15,000 books having been writen on the subject, tens of thousands of articles, and a zillion or so posts.

As you have seen from the responses, they vary. Some folks believe they've got this thing down cold: Aliens from space; end of story (and that is their ONLY answer). Others aren't so sure. Some people claim to KNOW (for certain) that we have 'man-made UFOs.' OK. Great! How do you propose hat we get people who take their security oaths seriously to talk?

Join the crowd, but don't expect us to solve the issue for you. We're not exactly the kind of folks who will politely get in line and offer you solutions which you can then judge for veracity, completeness, and eruditeness. But if you've got some ideas yourself, by all means share them, cite your sources, and we'll have a good old time!

 

[Double Nought Spy]

Und ve haff veys off making zeez people talk? Zat vould be news to most uff uss.

 

[jratcliff]

>>Well, fella, I think that the point of this thread is to "solve the mystery in 20 words or less," something we have been discussing for, oh, maybe 50 years or so.

I've been studying it myself for about the past 25 years. And I have become frustrated with the fact that we will, quite likely, never know anything about the so called 'real' phenomenon.

However, if there are, in fact, 'man made' UFOs. Those, I assure you, we can learn something about.

>>Of course, I have no knowledge of your background in this, but of you've read back a ways in this forum you will realize that we all have discussed every aspect of this phenomenon, every nuance, every case, and every possibility yet conceived of what is going on. We've discussed the ETH, the ITH, faeiries, daemons, angels, God, and Boeing itself (not really mutually exclusive).

Really? Really? Faeries, demons, angels, and God are *not* mutually exclusive with Boeing? That's a new one for me. Pray tell, do explain.

>>Some people claim to KNOW (for certain) that we have 'man-made UFOs.' OK. Great! How do you propose hat we get people who take their security oaths seriously to talk?

No. What I propose is that we make an effort to understand the *SCIENCE* behind it. If man-made UFOs exist, then there also exists a science behind it. Not magic. Not interdimensional nonsense. Not fairies. No demons. Not angels. No, hard cold real matter of fact science.

>>Join the crowd, but don't expect us to solve the issue for you.

I'm not asking you to solve it. What I am suggesting is that we focus our discussion and energy on a topic that *CAN BE SOLVED*. Unlike the so called 'real' UFO phenomenon which is as elusive as it ever was.

Are you suggesting that there is no distinction between a UFO manufactured by Lockheed and a glowing ball of light in a rural field in Missouri?

Personally, they seem like mighty different things to me.

John

 

[Trajanus]

As we should all be well aware by now we probably are never going to figure out the truth behind any UFOs which are the product of non-human intelligence. It goes behind even an intellectual issue, or data gathering , we literally may lack the ability to understand them due to our limited consciousness and/or senses.

Depends on their nature. If they are nuts and bolts craft from an ET civilization, the government may understand them already. If they're something entirely different, from another dimension, you're probably right.

If there are man-made UFOs, then tens of thousands of scientists, engineers, and military personal are privy to this information.

I don't know if there would be that many.

 

[Kieran]

Depends on their nature. If they are nuts and bolts craft from an ET civilization, the government may understand them already. If they're something entirely different, from another dimension, you're probably right.



I don't know if there would be that many.

I have to agree with you for the first time. The risk goes up the more people you have working on something it common sense. So if you want to maintain security and prevent leaks, small numbers of people would be best, it manageable to control from within. Control of thousands of people that would be a nightmare.

Now the million dollar question has it happened? Well the rumor is that indeed we do have alien technology. Have we solid facts and information to prove the rumor No. So how do we prove the rumor is wrong or right?

We can't, and that is still the problem ufology has not overcome for sixty years. We have a number of famous case's in ufology that are still a mystery. We would have ended this mind numbing debate a long time ago and won, if we could prove beyond a doubt what we say happened. A story is one thing, solid data, piece of alien technology or even a alien body is the best evidence we could get to end this illusion among the masses

As of yet "nothing" and that is the problem. Now if someone out there has it. There now showing it for some reason and some of the reasons are obvious. It understandable people would loss faith and resign to the fact, we may never find out what the true nature of the phenomenon is, maybe we are not meant to know, it would upset people too much if we find out the truth.

We are guessing really to the motives. All we know for certain is, they seem to be happy with that status of not being provable. So what can we do if that standpoint is true? So maybe we are indeed bigger idiots for taking about this topics. So in the longer run should we even bother. They do seem to care so why should we care.That is probably one of the mysteries for people, the unknowing thinking behind the phenomenon.

Hopefully one day they will reveal themselves, but i not going to cry if they don't. Seeing something' that you do not see everyday, is a privilege for me at least. And i am happy, even if i do not get any answers to the riddle.

 

[Trajanus]

I have to agree with you for the first time. The risk goes up the more people you have working on something it common sense. So if you want to maintain security and prevent leaks, small numbers of people would be best, it manageable to control from within. Control of thousands of people that would be a nightmare.

Offhand I don't know how many were involved with the Manhatten project or privy to Ultra.

 

[Kieran]

Offhand I don't know how many were involved with the Manhatten project or privy to Ultra.

I do not know anything about any of those cases. To be honest, Trajanus my knowledge of every case in ufology is pretty basic. There probably cases i have never even heard of. I do not research the topic unless i am interested or it came up on a certain thread here. Too much reading on the topic would be probably fry your brain.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

Yesterday:

If there are man-made UFOs, then tens of thousands of scientists, engineers, and military personal are privy to this information.

All anyone has to do is leak some aspect of the technology which can be independently reproduced and we can poke a major hole in this riddle.

Personally, I find this potential very exciting. Maybe the 'real' UFOs are not nuts & bolts, but if there are any out there built by Boeing or Lockheed you can be damned sure that they are.

John

Then today:

No. What I propose is that we make an effort to understand the *SCIENCE* behind it. If man-made UFOs exist, then there also exists a science behind it. Not magic. Not interdimensional nonsense. Not fairies. No demons. Not angels. No, hard cold real matter of fact science.

Well, I'm all for letting go of the idea of getting anyone to talk. Replicating the science seems like a tall order for us folks here, though. Where would we start? I've read The Hunt for Zero Point, but I doubt that qualifies me. Personally, I think we have a better shot at figuring out some of the "interdimensional nonsense." We could focus on Jacques Vallee's work for a starting point, maybe.

 

[Trajanus]

I do not know anything about any of those cases. To be honest, Trajanus my knowledge of every case in ufology is pretty basic. There probably cases i have never even heard of.

The Manhatten project was the building of the first atomic bomb; Ultra concerned he cracking of Axis codes. Both are relevant to the issue of the # of people who might maintain secrecy but neither concerns UFOlogy.

I do not research the topic unless i am interested or it came up on a certain thread here. Too much reading on the topic would be probably fry your brain.

It's sure tough to know this topic thoroughly. Besides the intricacies of past cases, new ones come in all the time.

 

[Kieran]

The Manhatten project was the building of the first atomic bomb; Ultra concerned he cracking of Axis codes. Both are relevant to the issue of the # of people who might maintain secrecy but neither concerns UFOlogy.



It's sure tough to know this topic thoroughly. Besides the intricacies of past cases, new ones come in all the time.

Thanks i have some knowledge for the first one, but i was not up to date for the name behind the project.And your number two ultra that is new information for me interesting.I probably need to look it up and see the secrecy behind it and was they successful in preventing leaks of information.

 

[Schuyler]

Really? Really? Faeries, demons, angels, and God are *not* mutually exclusive with Boeing? That's a new one for me. Pray tell, do explain.

Really. You're fixating on Boeing. I said that long string of possibilities is not mutually exclusive. But f you want an example, read "Dark Mission; the secret history of NASA" and that should provide ample evidence, not that I'm a huge fan of Hoaglund, but he's got some interesting stuff in there.

Are you suggesting that there is no distinction between a UFO manufactured by Lockheed and a glowing ball of light in a rural field in Missouri?

Did I say that? I didn't think so. How you got there is a mystery.

Look, you come on here out of nowhere like gangbusters telling us, by God, you want us to get in line and SOLVE this thing, etc. You know, you're not the only one that has been in this thing for 25 years. This dictatorial, in-your-face, sarcastic. chip-on-your-shoulder attitude will not fly here.

If you've got something to share, by all means share it. If you've figured out some novel method to find out of we have man made UFOs, by all means tell us what it is. If you want to discuss man-made UFOs, there's only about a hundred threads on this subject on this board alone.

If you're frustrated, take it out on someone else.

 

[Trajanus]

And your number two ultra that is new information for me interesting.I probably need to look it up and see the secrecy behind it and was they successful in preventing leaks of information.

Remarkably, with one apparent exception, mentioned by Blair in Hitler's U-boat War, secrecy was maintained, not only during the war, but for 30 years after it ended i.e. when there was no longer any pressing need for secrecy.