Let's solve a major component of the UFO mystery once and for all...

[Darkly Brooding]

Ok, I'll bite once again to play devil's advocate on a favored topic,...

Let's leave aside then, all the millions of reported balls of light, streaks of luminescence, or anything else that isn't recognized as nuts n' bolts units.

Start with the fact that millions of saucer/triangle shaped, 'nuts n' bolts' type UFOs have been spotted through the last half century, many, such as the Phoenix Lights or Belgium Triangle sightings, having mass, multiple confirmed, visual, radar and photographic evidence of existence.

Coincidence?
Psychological imprinting?
Delusional mass hysteria?
Ones mind perceiving a visual unknown and conforming to the preconceived mythological Or sociological expected?
ETs?

Or prototypes being of similar shape due to limiting physical and technical design requirements?

If you came looking for answers or proof, join the club. No one here has them.

Although you mention not knowing of any scientists leaking information regarding development of said hypothetical classified projects, I would maintain that there would, ideally, be only a handful of people with an overview of a project sub-component, let alone a completed project.

Such projects would be compartmentalized out to independent, privatized contractors who would not know what any single component they were making, was intended for.

Add to that a willingness to create, fund and then liquefy any contractor who did work on these projects, and you have a non-existent, non-govt department, funding a non-existent industry, with a non-existent end product.

If such industries were to exist they would be corporate in nature, not governmental, as the 20th century is the era of the corporation masquerading as govt. Laws are not made to protect the people, they are made to protect the corporations. The govt does not make laws, the corporations do. Govts don't provide jobs or income or produce anything,...they work for the corporations, who in turn, are expected to provide industry, income, consumables, and enrich the lives of the consumers.

If compartmentalized corporations not directly tied to the military industrial complex were used for such development, the industrial secrecy would be protected by these laws, and no revelations could come from govt pervue, documentation or disclosure. Secrecy is much easier to contain, and proof or hard evidence is easier to destroy after the compartmentalized division is closed down.

As for human leaks, I direct you to a short interview with Edgar Fouche. I suggest he is exactly what you claim does not exist; that being someone with claims to working on such projects and in enough detail and seemingly proper verbiage to make you think twice (although admittedly Lazar did the same at one time). Things like Central Accelerater Rings with mercury based plasma super-cooled to 150 Kalvin, pressurized to 200,000 atmospheres, and rotated to 60,000 rpm to create an antigravity propulsion.

Where did these numbers come from?
Where did the collective knowledge of the TR-3B(flying triangle), or the fact that the entire internet UFO community knows the callsign of an above-top-secret project come from?

These are the exact things you say must exist and that we can prove scientifically, yet we cannot trace any of these parts of the puzzle back to the source, as the source itself may no longer exist.

Well, I just gave you the numbers (mercury based plasma super-cooled to 150 Kalvin, pressurized to 200,000 atmospheres, and rotated to 60,000 rpm to create an antigravity propulsion), let's see you prove it,...(or isn't that exactly what you're asking of us?)

Another thing I know as a certainty, is we don't have a complete understanding of the laws of physics, like you suggest, nor a complete view of all the forces, elements and dimensions in our universe. Ask any quantum physicist about gravity and you'll begin to understand how little we actually do know as certainties. There is ample 'nudge room' inside of what we do not know for vehicles, dimensional entities or other phenomenon of science defying flight characteristics to exist.

Of course 'common knowledge' is not always true. Do I need proof to believe it? It would be nice, but ultimately, No,...

 

[Ezechiel]

I've been studying it myself for about the past 25 years. And I have become frustrated with the fact that we will, quite likely, never know anything about the so called 'real' phenomenon.

However, if there are, in fact, 'man made' UFOs. Those, I assure you, we can learn something about.

...25 years with no result is telling.

I'd start with the following assumption concerning 'man made' UFO's that defy current laws of physics:

Only the two extremes are possible.

• There are none
• They are built with the help of ET's and disclosing them exposes both humans and ET's involved in extremely covert technology exchanges

In other words, we can't solve any component of any 'man-made' UFO mystery without revising modern physics, accepting an ET presence and a collaboration or long term relationship with them.

Its a 'package deal'

 

[Trajanus]

They are built with the help of ET's

Not necessarily in the sense that ETs intended to help; maybe only in the sense that crashed ET craft enabled government researchers to back engineer them.

The govt does not make laws the corporations do.

Nobody doubts they have clout but...strange there are minimum wage laws, and many corporations have found it necessary to relocate to places where labor is cheaper, and environmental laws, if any, are more lax.

 

[Ezechiel]

Not necessarily in the sense that ETs intended to help; maybe only in the sense that crashed ET craft enabled government researchers to back engineer them.

That's a possible variant. But building a craft that works under a different set of rules requires that you understand the theoretical foundations on which they operate. (You need the physics that support the operation or behavior of a craft first. Not sure you can derive that from looking at an alien piece of equipment)

A craft of any type is an expression of the technological evolution stage of a specie and its understanding of the physical laws that apply to this universe.

The LHC for example will uncover laws that were previously undetectable. Once uncovered these laws will be decoded and exploited for our benefit. (Cost = 6,000,000,000 dollars)

IMHO, a quantum leap from our stage of understanding to a much higher stage without the normal investment of resources and intellectual effort should normally require external input (... but at what price ?).

In other words, if humans are building such craft, it follows that communication channels exist between humans and external entities. And that humans are able to translate ET communications into applied science.

How's that for a planetary scale conspiracy It would also imply that there is a huge chasm between the knowledge available to the masses and what is known by an elite exposed to an ET reality.

The technological differences and perception of the universe may be so different and radical as to create a natural 'cultural' barrier that prevents the exchange of information between humans exposed to the ET reality and humans that have not been. Once exposed, you can't go back and you can't explain what you've seen because it is likely incompatible with current knowledge. .... or culture

 

[Trajanus]

IMO it's possible that most UFOs are not all that more advanced, hence within our current ability to duplicate. They may be just scout vessels, simple by alien standards, whereas motherships represent the really sophisticated mode of (interstellar) travel, requiring knowledge of physics far in advance of what we possess.

 

[Kieran]

IMO it's possible that most UFOs are not all that more advanced, hence within our current ability to duplicate. They may be just scout vessels, simple by alien standards, whereas motherships represent the really sophisticated mode of (interstellar) travel, requiring knowledge of physics far in advance of what we possess.

That is an interesting point Trajanus. We have larger craft and small craft. There is a number of reports of craft emerging from the larger craft. But you can not jump to the conclusion, that those larger ships are travelling out in space.

Your mind is telling you that is how it is.

 

[Trajanus]

That is an interesting point Trajanus. We have larger craft and small craft. There is a number of reports of craft emerging from the larger craft. But you can not jump to the conclusion, that those larger ships are travelling out in space.

Your mind is telling you that is how it is.

I think the idea came, in part, from contactee reports i.e. if true, from ETs themselves. It does seem logical. If we see smaller craft emerging from larger ones, when they get here, that suggests the smaller ones are only suited to planetary operations.

 

[Kieran]

I think the idea came, in part, from contactee reports i.e. if true, from ETs themselves. It does seem logical. If we see smaller craft emerging from larger ones, when they get here, that suggests the smaller ones are only suited to planetary operations.

Well i am not sure we can make that assumption.

 

[Trajanus]

Well i am not sure we can make that assumption.

True but it does at least purport to come from ETs themselves, via contactees see e.g. page 116 of Beyond Earth, Man's Contact with UFOs.

 

[Ezechiel]

IMO it's possible that most UFOs are not all that more advanced, hence within our current ability to duplicate. They may be just scout vessels, simple by alien standards, whereas motherships represent the really sophisticated mode of (interstellar) travel, requiring knowledge of physics far in advance of what we possess.

You could have a civlization that has uncovered a fundamental base that we may have overlooked and actually is behind us on many aspects... but has gained the ability to travel between stars before us

For example, stumbling on the true nature of 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' may have unlocked new capabilities.

 

[Trajanus]

You could have a civlization that has uncovered a fundamental base that we may have overlooked and actually is behind us on many aspects... but has gained the ability to travel between stars before us

For example, stumbling on the true nature of 'dark matter' and 'dark energy' may have unlocked new capabilities.

I don't know if they could know about dark matter and energy while being largely behind us. That takes pretty sophisticated knowledge of astronomy and physics. IMO the most optimistic view is that we are, in some ways, not far behind them. Maybe close enough to be able to copy their simplest stuff.

 

[Ezechiel]

I think the idea came, in part, from contactee reports i.e. if true, from ETs themselves. It does seem logical. If we see smaller craft emerging from larger ones, when they get here, that suggests the smaller ones are only suited to planetary operations.

That's very logical from an operational point of view:

It makes very good sense for any civilization in a pre sub-light travel era. You'd need large ships for long term displacements to hold the needed resources for sustenance, food processing, exploration, defense, medical facilities, entertainment.... .... etc.

It also makes sense to have craft with specialities. It doesn't make sense to equip all your craft with the framework necessary for interstellar travel. You'd want to send crafts with the least amount of technology to zip around a solar system while your main ship is secured and hidden in a crater sending transmissions back to the home planet

That same strategy was used by the Apollo program... the lunar orbitor (mother ship) and the lander (planetary operations)

 

[Ezechiel]

I don't know if they could know about dark matter and energy while being largely behind us. That takes pretty sophisticated knowledge of astronomy and physics. IMO the most optimistic view is that we are, in some ways, not far behind them. Maybe close enough to be able to copy their simplest stuff.

That would have to come from a civilization that is fairly close to us distance wise. I expect far away civilizations to have decoded the time/space dimensions enough to create worm-holes or other exotic constructs that bend space.

IMHO, the closer the star the less technology you need to get there. Once we finally conquer fusion power it becomes feasable to send an exploration craft to the Alpha centauri system that would reach it at half light speed reaching it in 8 to 15 years (spend half the trip accelerating and the other half decelerating)

 

[Trajanus]

That same strategy was used by the Apollo program... the lunar orbitor (mother ship) and the lander (planetary operations)

Has anyone read The Science of Extraterrestrials which purports to show how these things go?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

(3) Real live technology built by men and women just like you an me, with our tax dollars, by the likes of Boeing and other major defense contractors.

We are in the middle of a couple of wars. I'd think we'd use some of this technology if we had it.

(3) The Cash-Lundrum case. Probably the only single piece of compelling evidence that a UFO might well have been something of 'ours'. Sure, there are plenty of reports of jets being scrambled to chase UFOs (and always fail) but this is the only instance where a massive fleet of helicopters was escorting one.

How do we know they were real helicopters? People have reported many strange things during UFO sightings, like seeing a pile up of cars in an apparent traffic accident, to seeing a metal "shed" that wasn't there a short time before!

(4) I don't have a 'four'. I not aware of any compelling evidence to support the idea that we have our own UFOs. Do we have secret military aircraft? Sure, of course. But UFOs that violate the known laws of physics as we currently understand it? Not so much...

Now I wouldn't doubt that we have made fake UFOs to make people think that all UFOs are some kind of top secret weapon.

I still think if we had something like that, we would use it for something. Even if just to show off and strike fear into the hearts of what ever group we are fighting at any given moment.

Also secret skunk works projects could be a way to funnel money into people's pockets in the name of national security, without actually developing anything new.

 

[Trajanus]

We are in the middle of a couple of wars. I'd think we'd use some of this technology if we had it.

Not necessarily. The US hasn't used n-bombs in any war since 1945. The current wars may not be deemed deadly enough to warrant exposing big secrets to deal with.

How do we know they were real helicopters?

I think they were identified as Chinooks, some from a carrier in the gulf. Of course, that doesn't mean the UFO was "ours' since they could've been keeping an eye on it, not escorting it.

I still think if we had something like that, we would use it for something. Even if just to show off and strike fear into the hearts of what ever group we are fighting at any given moment.

IMO any ability to reproduce ET gear is as yet limited, or it would be more widespread.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Not necessarily. The US hasn't used n-bombs in any war since 1945. The current wars may not be deemed deadly enough to warrant exposing big secrets to deal with.

Not the same thing. Nuclear weapons aren't secret. We do use Stealth bombers.

If we had football field sized black triangles (and we don't), I think we would use them. What are they saving them for, Christmas? If there was motivation to create such craft, there has to have been a need for it. We always use our secret weapons, even if the general public doesn't know it.

I think they were identified as Chinooks, some from a carrier in the gulf. Of course, that doesn't mean the UFO was "ours' since they could've been keeping an eye on it, not escorting it.

I was pointing out that even if they looked like Chinooks, they might not have been helicopters. People might have been led to believe they were seeing helicopters. That actually makes more sense than a bunch of Chinooks escorting a strange object. We can't forget the high strangeness factor in sightings of this kind. Lots of absurd things happen that make little sense during UFO sightings.

There's a level of mind control at work that is unsettling. I had a recent sighting with a friend, and even though I had my Canon A590 camera with me, I was convinced I had no batteries in it until the object was no longer in view. After the fact it's quite disturbing. I knew it wasn't right, but I had no free will in the situation. I just put the camera back in my bag.

Now the real question is how does it know you are looking at it? I keep reading witnesses saying they felt the object knew it was being observed. I also feel that any answer to that question will be wrong!

IMO any ability to reproduce ET gear is as yet limited, or it would be more widespread.

We have no ability to reproduce "ET gear". We spend most of our tech dollars on the cell phone industry!

If we even have any recovered "alien" craft, we haven't a clue how they work. It's not like we are going to open one up and see printed circuit boards, resistors and op amps.

 

[Trajanus]

If we had football field sized black triangles (and we don't), I think we would use them. What are they saving them for, Christmas? If there was motivation to create such craft, there has to have been a need for it.

But they may have been built for use only in circumstances unlike those of recent unconventional conflicts. Black triangles might be great for beating say, enemy jets. Not so good for fighting terrorists hiding in mountain areas.

I was pointing out that even if they looked like Chinooks, they might not have been helicopters.

But an investigator was told by a government source they were from an AF base and a carrier in the gulf of Mexico.

Now the real question is how does it know you are looking at it? I keep reading witnesses saying they felt the object knew it was being observed. I also feel that any answer to that question will be wrong!

If the observer can see it, I'd assume the thing could see the observer, looking at it.

If we even have any recovered "alien" craft, we haven't a clue how they work. It's not like we are going to open one up and see printed circuit boards, resistors and op amps.

We might figure them out if they're relatively simple--there sure has been ample time to try and toy with these things.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

But they may have been built for use only in circumstances unlike those of recent unconventional conflicts. Black triangles might be great for beating say, enemy jets. Not so good for fighting terrorists hiding in mountain areas.

That's too vague. So what are they good for? Seems it was a flop if it can't be used in combat situations. We are still flying to the planets on chemical rockets, and have no replacement for the shuttle. That's pretty much the extent of our technology.

Fighter jets are no match for real UFOs. That's fairly well documented. So it's not "ET tech" if it can't be used in combat, that's for sure.

But an investigator was told by a government source they were from an AF base and a carrier in the gulf of Mexico.

Ah the old "government source" thing. Well we can also say they wanted the investigator to believe that.

If the observer can see it, I'd assume the thing could see the observer, looking at it.

It's not that simple! Here's my example. I was in a pickup truck with my friend driving. We were on a busy highway with hundreds of other cars. The object was quite far off, but in front of some distant clouds on the horizon in front of us.

So if you were in that object looking down on a highway, how would you be able to pick out one car out of all of them, and know that the person in that car was intending to take a photo, or at least use the telephoto lens to get a better look?

You wouldn't. I didn't even have the camera up in position.. I was looking down on it about to turn it on, when I "realized" it had no batteries in it. I even saw the empty battery compartment in my mind as a memory of looking at the camera earlier. It was a very confusing situation. However it had fresh batteries in it and I was using it a half hour earlier! How would I not know that? Well, I sure did right after we turned off the highway.

So somehow, it/they knew what I was thinking, and stopped me from using the camera.

So, let's assume they can read your thoughts. I accept that as fact. Are they reading everyone's thoughts that were on that highway? Or was it the act of observing that made the difference?

We might figure them out if they're relatively simple--there sure has been ample time to try and toy with these things.

I doubt they are simple. They don't do simple things. Actually they might be VERY simple, as in little or no moving parts, etc., but operate on principles we know nothing about. You have to understand the process behind a device to understand how it works.

If we knew nothing about electricity, how would we understand what a light bulb was if we found one? it could be used for anything. Surely it would seem very odd and make no sense. We also would never get it to work. We might think it was a decorative or ceremonial object! Just like we think the Great pyramid was a tomb, even though all the evidence points against that. It might have been a machine, but doesn't look like one, since we have no clue as to its purpose or function, or any understanding of what forces it used. It's like sending a radio back in time 1000 years. In that context it will make no sense to the smartest minds, and would never be figured out. Even if it had fresh batteries in it!

 

[Trajanus]

Just like we think the Great Pyramid was a tomb, even though all the evidence points against that

News to me. I recently heard that a Frenchmen figured out it was built using an internal ramp, btw.