Livingston UFO Encounter 1979

[Wade]

I wonder if the dog could have been rambling through the stuff and possibly passed it on, is there anything to suggest the plant's effects wouldn't affect animals?

 

[Spectre73]

Considering Taylor would find himself in similar conditions on a daily basis it is reasonable to assume that he (and other's in similar conditions) would be poisoned on a regular basis.

I found this regarding the toxicity of Deadly nightshade that seem to contradict how toxic the plant is, and how long symptoms last.

Symptoms may be slow to appear but last for several days. They include dryness in the mouth, thirst, difficulty in swallowing and speaking, blurred vision from the dilated pupils, vomiting, excessive stimulation of the heart, drowsiness, slurred speech, hallucinations, confusion, disorientation, delirium, and agitation. Coma and convulsions often precede death.

There is disagreement over what constitutes a fatal amount with cases cited of a small child eating half a berry and dying alongside a nine year old Danish boy who, in the 1990s, ate between twenty and twenty five berries and survived.

A 1996 study of plant poisoning over 29 years in Switzerland found that Atropa belladonna had caused more serious incidents than any other plant (though less than 2 per year on average) and none of these resulted in death.

Though the root is believed to have the highest concentration of the toxins, the berries are usually the cause of accidental poisoning because they look so nice.

Atropa Belladonna, deadly nightshade - THE POISON GARDEN website

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

The health issues relating any of these physical encounters on the human eyewitness which results in lost time, burns, headaches , removal of objects months later and UFO leaves ground imprints plus changing types of crafts cloak and de-cloaked. The magnetic type bubbles used to engulf the individual or group. While other see bright lights of different colours.

Earthfiles.com Environment | Big Red-Blue Light Near RAF Bentwaters Weapons Storage Area and UFOs Tracked On Radar Into Rendlesham Forest

 

[Burnt State]

I wonder if the dog could have been rambling through the stuff and possibly passed it on, is there anything to suggest the plant's effects wouldn't affect animals?

It's interesting how animals can often deal with toxicity at much higher levels than humans. For example the amount of castor beans (the source of ricin) that a duck can safely ingest is outstanding compared to humans who can die from far fewer. The belladonna plant though is just not like a sticky burr where parts attach to dogs. A good fur coat also forms a great barrier to keep animals safe. It would be curious to know if anyone ever asked Taylor details about his interaction with any plants prior to the event as these were growing in the area. These berries do in fact have a sweet taste and could be mistaken for a blueberry or huckleberry if it was growing amongst such plants. One berry could be enough to set off a profound hallucination.

 

[Burnt State]

Considering Taylor would find himself in similar conditions on a daily basis it is reasonable to assume that he (and other's in similar conditions) would be poisoned on a regular basis.

i'm not sure that's a fair estimate as it's a common enough plant and most know not to eat the berries. But as pointed out effects will not be consistent from person to person and in Taylor's case did he not in fact state he was affected for days later? Again, i'm not trying to dismiss the case out of hand but this does appear to be more likely.

A curious bit about discontinuous evidence: the two parallel tractor marks in the field contained water upon investigation suggesting that they had been made prior to the event Taylor described.

 

[Spectre73]

That's very true Burnt State. Rabbits can happily eat Death Cap mushrooms for example while of course being deadly to humans.

Regarding Atropa Belladonna it is rather rare in Scotland, the incident also took place in November. The berries and leaves would be gone by this month especially in Scotland where Autumn sets in sooner compared to England for example

 

[Spectre73]

i'm not sure that's a fair estimate as it's a common enough plant and most know not to eat the berries. But as pointed out effects will not be consistent from person to person and in Taylor's case did he not in fact state he was affected for days later? Again, i'm not trying to dismiss the case out of hand but this does appear to be more likely.

A curious bit about discontinuous evidence: the two parallel tractor marks in the field contained water upon investigation suggesting that they had been made prior to the event Taylor described.

I was referring to your earlier post of only having to have small contact with the plant to be poisoned rather than eating the berries. I was thinking that under those conditions it may be fairly easy to be poisoned.

Great to see so many posts for my first thread!!

 

[Burnt State]

It's a good case to talk about because of the many unique feature and possibilities that it holds. In autumn where i live i still have nightshade clinging to the fence line and turning colour in November. But I will go with your local gardening interpretation, as you would know best, Spectre73. I still want you to check this year to see how long those leaves hold for though. I also wonder about when the peak of toxicity is in the leaves. Is it more or less toxic in the fall?

On one botany site I found this:"The whole plant, and especially the root, is very poisonous. Even handling the plant has been known to cause problems if the person has cuts or grazes on the hand. The plant is particularly dangerous for children since the fruit looks attractive and has a sweet taste. The toxins are concentrated in the ripe fruit."

Taylor did have a substantial graze on his chin. Imagine if he fell onto some nightshade, got knocked out, and came to completely blasted on Belladonna, sees the dome and the fantasy unfolds from there? There is some plausibility in this option for me. However, the consistent hole depths are very curious along with his unwavering conviction of an incredibly bizarre experience.

 

[Spectre73]

I'm certainly no expert regarding Deadly nightshade and just wanted to through some challenges in to the hallucinogen theory.

I'm just wondering if this case could possibly warrant a paracast episode in the future?

 

[Trajanus]

Regarding Atropa Belladonna it is rather rare in Scotland, the incident also took place in November. The berries and leaves would be gone by this month especially in Scotland where Autumn sets in sooner compared to England for example

OK that rules it out.

 

[Burnt State]

OK that rules it out.

Not necessarily as the berries will hang on the plant through the winter if not eaten by animals. It is a hardy perennial and will continue to grow deep into autumn depending on conditions. Some other unique features include a very foul smelling odor that is produced when leaves are crushed which fits part of Taylor's narrative. However Dechmont, from what I've researched, is at the upper limit of its supposed growing latitude, but my experience with plants and their regional growth ratings, as learned from horticulturalists is that those regional marginal ratings are bogus to some extent and that plants frequently will grow outside their regions but just not thrive.

Scotland has a very long history with regards to Belladonna and we know is was a plant in Dechmont's forest area at the time of Taylor's incident as per Slater's article. In harsh climates toxicity levels go up in this plant, but toxicity gets concentrated in the berries and loses strength in leaves by fall. There may still be some green tips growing but the berries have and roots have the biggest concentrations. Degrees of effects, quantities and time durations for onset of symptoms and lasting effects vary incredibly in the botany literature and it appears personal biological chemistry may also play a role in the nature of the impact. In this case I'm not sure how the timelines match at all though in terms of how long he was out for, but...

Wade brought up the issue of transference and this is what I found:

"BIZARRE CAUSES OF POISONING
When the history of ingestion of berries is clear, and the plant is rapidly identified there are usually few problems with the diagnosis. However, where the poison has passed through an intermediate animal (or vehicle), then the diagnosis can be difficult and confusing. For example the meat from cattle and rabbits which have grazed on Atropa belladonna can be toxic.
In another peculiar outbreak, three individuals were poisoned by eating honey (one severely). On analysis the honey contained significant amounts of atropine. Presumably, in all these three instances, the cattle, rabbits and bees were relatively immune to the toxic effects of the alkaloid. The sweet taste of honey obviously masked the bitter taste of the alkaloid to a degree (compare the case of Dr Agutter described below). In all such cases, it is essential that any residue of the suspected foodstuff be preserved for analysis."
http://www.rcpe.ac.uk/journal/issue/journal_37_1/R-lee.pdf

What I find interesting about the belladonna poisoning angle for this case is that the symptoms have a very strong set of commonalities with Taylor's symptoms and I always tend to think if there can be an earth bound cause for a humanoid/UFO/robot encounter then it has to be statistically much more probable than aliens or sea-mine shaped robots from outer space attacking people, not that this can be ruled out entirely. But this reading is seriously making me reconsider its counterpart case: Cisco Grove, with the strange foul smelling odors, attacking creatures, robots etc...all could be hallucinatory and related to plant poisoning. How often in a UFO encounter, or humanoid report do investigators ever ask, "and what did you eat prior to all of this happening to you?"

Perhaps a more critical question to be explored in Ufology, as Nick Redfern brought up recently on Radio Misterioso, is the psychedelic angle as many cases do parallel psychotropic experiences and perhaps this needs better accounting and examination? These are definitely not bandaid solutions but they do raise interesting questions and possibilities.

 

[Burnt State]

I'm certainly no expert regarding Deadly nightshade and just wanted to through some challenges in to the hallucinogen theory.

I'm just wondering if this case could possibly warrant a paracast episode in the future?

I've suggested before that an interesting round table episode format would be to pull together experts or focussed researchers in the field to thrash out a specific case as opposed to talking to the one expert that provides often a one-sided view only. Having a number of people with different, educated perspectives on a specific case could make for a much more lively examination. This is an excellent case that has a number of very strong, original features along with some parallels with other cases that would make for a very dynamic episode. Suggest it.

They have done this before on rare occasions but some have fallen flat when the researchers at the table did not have all their facts in order.

 

[Spectre73]

Some excellent points there Burnt State. I find the poisoning angle fascinating. Such as the case involving a French town that went insane due to Ergot poisoning.

This is a very good site regarding deadly nightshade.

A Modern Herbal | Nightshade, Deadly

 

[Spectre73]

I still find it difficult to accept that the accidental touching (even with a wound) would produce such powerful and realistic hallucination.

Here is some further readings regarding Belladonna.

Atropa Belladonna intoxication: a case report

 

[Han]

Nice thread! Whilst trying to learn more about psychoactive plants in the UK I came across this list of
Hallucinogenic fish:

Hallucinogenic fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not suggesting that this has anything to do with this specific case, but I thought it might be worth sharing.

"Sarpa salpa, a species of sea bream, is commonly claimed to be hallucinogenic.[1] These widely distributed coastal fish are normally found in the Mediterranean and around Spain, and along the west and south coasts of Africa.[2] Occasionally they are found in British waters.[3] They can induce LSD-like hallucinations if eaten.[4] In 2006, two men who apparently ate the fish experienced hallucinations lasting for several days.[5][6] The likelihood of hallucinations depends on the season.[7][8][9] Sarpa salpa is known as "the fish that makes dreams" in Arabic.[5]"

The reason I think this is so interesting is that it could explain a few of the stranger "sea monster" type sightings, especially if all the witnesses had had the same fish for tea.

 

[Wade]

When I saw this it suspected that there must have been some kind of food down the chain that the fish would consume and retain but it also occurred to me if this plant did exist other fish in the area would probably consume it as well and therefore there would be more fish species that are known to have this effect.

 

[Burnt State]

I love this idea of the hallucinogenic fish - so people don't have to keep licking the backs of toads anymore. It also brings up the fact that hallucinogens are plentiful in the environment, and history records many, many cases of direct contact with certain plants that have had profound psychotropic effects. Consider just how many mental, hallucinatory aberrations people have experienced but were unaware of the cause, what they ate, inhaled or touched that was the cause and which are now stories of paranormal lore.

The effects of consuming belladonna are similar to those of consuming Datura and Brugmansia. Within fifteen minutes of consumption, arousal, often erotic will occur. Euphoria, crying fits, agitation, thought disturbance, confusion, screaming, diverse hallucinations, frenzy, rage and madness often occur as well. Death may result from respiratory paralysis. The effects last from three to four hours, with effects on the vision lasting three to four days (Gabel 1968).
Visions produced by belladonna are usually described as threatening, dark, demonic, and profoundly terrifying. Most individuals who have consumed belladonna at hallucinogenic doses have indicated a strong desire to never repeat the experience. The alkaloids contained in belladonna cause the mucous membranes to become very dry and make the face turn red, while dilating the pupils and accelerating the pulse (Ratsch 1998, 84). Due to its highly toxic nature, it is not recommended that one consume belladonna in any form unless specifically directed to do so by a doctor, licensed herbalist, or homeopath.
Atropa belladonna - Belladonna

I also find it hard to believe that minute traces of plants could have highly dramatic effects, but anyone who has handled Giant Hogweed in sunlight will be amazed at the ability for the smallest drop of plant juice to create the most vicious sunburns, making the skin suddenly incredibly photosensitive, creating burns that go right down to the bottom of the epidermis. I know, I felt I like I had been attacked by a feeakin' triffid when I made this mistake. I could see it easily blinding someone if a teardrop amount hit your eyeball in the sun. Plants are very powerful who need only a trace to enter your system to take you on unstoppable journeys or even death.
Giant weed that burns and blinds spreads across Canada

 

[Trajanus]

Not necessarily as the berries will hang on the plant through the winter if not eaten by animals.....In harsh climates toxicity levels go up in this plant, but toxicity gets concentrated in the berries and loses strength in leaves by fall. There may still be some green tips growing but the berries have and roots have the biggest concentrations.

Inasmuch as Taylor wouldn't have eaten them, poisoning doesn't seem likely. Or if he ate something like meat contaminated with toxin, we should probably expect others to have been affected at the time.

What I find interesting about the belladonna poisoning angle for this case is that the symptoms have a very strong set of commonalities with Taylor's symptoms

Strange that no doctor ever gave this as a diagnosis. He described the "symptoms" after they would've worn off.

and I always tend to think if there can be an earth bound cause for a humanoid/UFO/robot encounter then it has to be statistically much more probable than aliens or sea-mine shaped robots from outer space attacking people, not that this can be ruled out entirely.

It's not inherently improbable at all. It depends on how advanced aliens are and how many have come here. There have been a multitude of unusual craft sighted but poisoning, under those circumstances, doesn't seem likely.

But this reading is seriously making me reconsider its counterpart case: Cisco Grove, with the strange foul smelling odors, attacking creatures, robots etc...all could be hallucinatory and related to plant poisoning. How often in a UFO encounter, or humanoid report do investigators ever ask, "and what did you eat prior to all of this happening to you?"

Michalak also smelled something unpleasant. I don't suppose poisoning can account for the pattern on his chest. From what I've read Shrum was feeling OK at the time. When he first saw the craft he thought it was a chopper looking for him. He didn't seem out of his mind or hallucinating.

 

[Burnt State]

Inasmuch as Taylor wouldn't have eaten them, poisoning doesn't seem likely. Or if he ate something like meat contaminated with toxin, we should probably expect others to have been affected at the time.

You never know what could have happened or who ate what. In the case of five children getting Belladonna poisoning they were gobbling up nightshade berries as it had wrapped itself around a blackberry bush.

Strange that no doctor ever gave this as a diagnosis. He described the "symptoms" after they would've worn off.

It was the family doctor that saw him who might have had no background in belladonna poisoning. He went to an emergency room afterwards, but was bored with waiting and went home so his symptoms may never have had a full diagnosis.

It's not inherently improbable at all. It depends on how advanced aliens are and how many have come here. There have been a multitude of unusual craft sighted but poisoning, under those circumstances, doesn't seem likely.

well I can't really speak to that as I believe the likelihood of alien life forms visiting from afar to he mostly improbable. But I can see how people who were mistakenly on an entheogenic ride may have reported harrowing attempted alien absuctions. For me that's a more likely scenario.

Michalak also smelled something unpleasant. I don't suppose poisoning can account for the pattern on his chest. From what I've read Shrum was feeling OK at the time. When he first saw the craft he thought it was a chopper looking for him. He didn't seem out of his mind or hallucinating.

so to be honest these really are three of my favourite stories. I've often wondered whether or not Shrum's story was a hallucinogenic one as that's high strsnge, literally is it not? Michalak's encounter I don't rule out being entheogenic because of the burn pattern, but because he reports a rather cohesive story that sounded rather friendly as far as he was concerned, except for those nasty exhaust burns. Maybe a more happy hallucinogen?

But as a critical caveat I would mention the following: physical evidence is not always continuously attached to the stories. Broken branches, exhaust burns, broken arrows, torn pants and strange tread marks and holes in the ground all may have entirely prosaic and simple explanations independent of the anomalous story, but become extraordinary when tied to a high strange story.

And as far as this commonality of a strange gas or odour that goes along with these cases, or going unconscious, missing time, feeling dazed or unwell for days afterwards - these all do have many things in common with psychedelic substances and are worthy avenues to pursue when investigating cases that report similar symptoms. In Michalak's case, one i've always felt to be most likely a very strange encounter with real physical evidence, we still have only his word, the burns and then later on some rather curious physical evid4nce found on site. I know a common debunking strategy is to claim the original witness is the hoaxer, which has borne itself out before quite famously, but in these three cases where there was no profit, where the story never changed and where in Shrum's case the media was avoided, you have to at least acknowledge that these three guys each believed very much the story that they have told as their true experience. So for them it was real - that much I believe.

 

[Sand]

This is one of my favourite UFO cases. It took place in 1979 and not too far from were I live.

It’s a fascinating case.

Spectre73, are you familiar enough with the location to know how long a walk it would have been from the spot Taylor parked his truck to the clearing where he saw the UFO?