Livingston UFO Encounter 1979

[Spectre73]

It’s a fascinating case.

Spectre73, are you familiar enough with the location to know how long a walk it would have been from the spot Taylor parked his truck to the clearing where he saw the UFO?

That's a great question Sand.
Sadly I'm unaware of the time it took Taylor from parking his truck to walking to the scene of the incident.

 

[Randall]

Hallucinogenic fish: Hallucinogenic fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Han you've done it again!

Unidentified Submerged Object ?​

Na - It's Just Hallucinogenic Fish !
​

 

[Trajanus]

You never know what could have happened or who ate what. In the case of five children getting Belladonna poisoning they were gobbling up nightshade berries as it had wrapped itself around a blackberry bush.

That shows more than one person is likely to be affected. If a steer had eaten nightshade, others should've gone crazy as Taylor could hardly have eaten all its meat.

It was the family doctor that saw him who might have had no background in belladonna poisoning. He went to an emergency room afterwards, but was bored with waiting and went home so his symptoms may never have had a full diagnosis.

But the case was well publicized and many years ago. Some doctor should've long ago pointed to belladonna as a likely cause.

well I can't really speak to that as I believe the likelihood of alien life forms visiting from afar to he mostly improbable.

I don't think so. Astronauts walking on the moon would've seemed lunacy down to at least 1940.

But I can see how people who were mistakenly on an entheogenic ride may have reported harrowing attempted alien absuctions. For me that's a more likely scenario.

I doubt it. Granted some people may be accidently afflicted. But why hallucinations involving ALIENS?? As far as I know, neither Taylor, Michalak nor Shrum were UFO fans. (Michalak for example, spoke to the strange craft in earthly languages thinking it was an earthly space craft.) Even had they been prone to hallucinate if poisoned, why not have hallucinations relating to, say, a wartime experience or a childhood incident? There are a million other things they were more likely to have hallucinated about.

I've often wondered whether or not Shrum's story was a hallucinogenic one as that's high strsnge, literally is it not? Michalak's encounter I don't rule out being entheogenic because of the burn pattern, but because he reports a rather cohesive story that sounded rather friendly as far as he was concerned, except for those nasty exhaust burns. Maybe a more happy hallucinogen?

I very much doubt either man was hallucinating. Like Shrum, Michalak seemed fine at the start of the encounter. He thought he was seeing an earthly device.

But as a critical caveat I would mention the following: physical evidence is not always continuously attached to the stories. Broken branches, exhaust burns, broken arrows, torn pants and strange tread marks and holes in the ground all may have entirely prosaic and simple explanations independent of the anomalous story, but become extraordinary when tied to a high strange story.

The witnesses clearly indicated they resulted from the phenomenon itself, so I don't think that's parsimonious.

 

[Burnt State]

It’s a fascinating case.

Spectre73, are you familiar enough with the location to know how long a walk it would have been from the spot Taylor parked his truck to the clearing where he saw the UFO?

In some of the links I posted above there are very detailed discussions about evidence, timelines and the effects on Taylor. He believes he was unconscious for about 20 minutes but who knows how long his attack took, especially if he was in an altered state:

"Upon regaining consciousness he heard a swishing sound and realised that the UFOs had gone. His dog was barking wildly at him and he realised that he couldn’t walk or even talk properly. He managed to get back to his truck that got it stuck in the mud and consequently had to walk over a mile back to his home. He suffered a headache for hours and a raging thirst which lasted for two days." - from the Shards of Magnolia blog on Memory Failure

His physical effects, as previously stated are classic belladonna poisoning symptoms. He was definitely affected chemically by a substance that impaired him in the same way belladonna does. In the grand scheme of things the choices are robotic sea mines emitting a noxious gas to incapacitate their victim, and then somehow these mines with their uniform spikes were going to haul their biological sample inside (good thing he had clothes on or how would they grab him), or somehow Taylor ingested or came into direct contact with belladonna.

 

[Trajanus]

In the grand scheme of things the choices are robotic sea mines emitting a noxious gas to incapacitate their victim, and then somehow these mines with their uniform spikes were going to haul their biological sample inside

We don't know what their goal was. They may have wanted to test a new weapon, or demonstrate they could be dangerous.

or somehow Taylor ingested or came into direct contact with belladonna.

He wouldn't have injested the berries, few leaves were there at that time of year and as for contamination from another source, it most likely would've affected others too or Taylor at a different time i.e. right after mealtime. And a second time if he still had any of the original contaminated stuff.

 

[Burnt State]

That shows more than one person is likely to be affected. If a steer had eaten nightshade, others should've gone crazy as Taylor could hardly have eaten all its meat.

as I said there are many if's involved and we don't know who ate what, what might have been discarded following the meal etc. so this is not really possible to determine how belladonna got into his system. From Slater's research though come these important aspects about deadly nightshade and Taylor's knowledge:

Having established that belladonna is present in the area it is not implausible that during his scheduled inspection of the forest Taylor came across the plant and handled it in some way. Perhaps he was mindful of the plant’s harmful qualities and uprooted it, crushing the leaves, roots and berries in his hands. Moreover, if he was unaware of the plant’s toxic nature he may have naively consumed one or more of the berries before continuing with his check of the wood. Each scenario would introduce atropine into his system either by oral ingestion or transdermally. Though one would expect a forester to be familiar with dangerous plants as part of the work remit, the sheer rarity of a species may bring about ignorance. Further, when asked if the Forestry Commission have a policy towards the identification of poisonous plants they responded, “we do not need to specifically train our staff to identify them simply because they don't have to eat them as part of their job.”

But the case was well publicized and many years ago. Some doctor should've long ago pointed to belladonna as a likely cause.

i don't know how many doctors are familiar with various toxic effects or who read UFO literature and feel like they need to comment on them publicly, but Slater recognized this and his research is sound, and he makes a very strong case as the symptoms are highly parallel, including the after effects. FWIW at the recent GEIPAN conference Vallée asked the audience how many medical doctors were in the room - only one put up their hand.

I don't think so. Astronauts walking on the moon would've seemed lunacy down to at least 1940.

this is true but then traversing the stars is really a whole other scientific endeavor is it not? And this then brings us into the ETH debate which I've argued ad nauseum elsewhere so I won't get into it here except to say I think sending nano-probes or self-replicating probes to collect information makes good sense. Trying to haul in a human specimen to transport across the galaxy does not make much sense. But that's just me.

I doubt it. Granted some people may be accidently afflicted. But why hallucinations involving ALIENS?? As far as I know, neither Taylor, Michalak nor Shrum were UFO fans. (Michalak for example, spoke to the strange craft in earthly languages thinking it was an earthly space craft.) Even had they been prone to hallucinate if poisoned, why not have hallucinations relating to, say, a wartime experience or a childhood incident? There are a million other things they were more likely to have hallucinated about.

who said anything about aliens? Because it looks like a spaceship, or because they are small little creatures that makes the whole thing alien? These could be local inhabitants or could come out of one's mind. Someone drew direct correlations between a Dr. Who episode that was the only thing on the tube at the time to watch as an influencer of Taylor's sighting. In Slater's argument he makes a strong case for Taylor's story as a prime example of the typical nefarious hallucinations that come with belladonna. And I did separate Michalak from the belladonna angle. We also have no idea what's rolling around in the subconscious of a witness or what will get pulled out into their consciousness during a heightened state or in a dream. Entheogens change everything, even dogs-see below.

Re: evidence continuity

The witnesses clearly indicated they resulted from the phenomenon itself, so I don't think that's parsimonious.

Earlier I pointed out how the nearby water dome with its fence could easily be transformed into the sphere with propellers under the influence of a hallucinogen. Slater proposes that the man's dog could have been transformed into sea mines in a hallucinatory state. The dog could also have been pulling at him while he was on the ground in an effort to assist and could also be a possible cause for the tears.

With hgh strange cases what is most compelling about them can be how the evidence chain works in its favor but, as with both Shrum and Taylor we are to believe a highly advanced species that can traverse the stars is then incapacitated when it comes to getting their bio sample on board - we must apply logic at some point in these two cases as given the farcical nature of these two failed capture attempts and wonder if there are other, more earth bound possibilities.

Slater's arguments regarding the evidence on the ground range from the obvious to rather detailed and elaborate causes for what was seen on the ground which include tampering by the men who set up the fence that enclosed the area of the attack, to traditional wooden post structures that are built in the area. But I think the two pieces of evidence on the ground that are of interest are that the parallel tracks had water in them suggesting they were made prior to the event as there had been no rain during or following the investigation of the tracks and that the other odd tracks do not conform in any way to the description of the two rolling mines. They just don't match.

So as with many of these cases without a corroborating witness we have a highly strange experience and we have these various physical effects. These could be joined together to create a story, in some cases you have to put a square peg through a round hole to do it but it does not necessarily make it so. Something tore his pants: but was it the dog? was it from crawling in the ground? was it from his disturbed physical state while trying to get in and out of the truck? Or was it these sea mines trying to haul him into to the ship? Again, I consider what are plausible chains in the narrative vs. which are irregular, make no sense, or are highly improbable. These are choices the UFO aficionado will make for themselves. It appears we will have to agree to disagree on our divergent, 'plausible' interpretations.

 

[Wade]

Regarding Atropa Belladonna it is rather rare in Scotland, the incident also took place in November. The berries and leaves would be gone by this month especially in Scotland where Autumn sets in sooner compared to England for example

Could there have been an unusual weather patterns that year (warmer extended autumn) that would have allowed the plant to survive a bit longer?

Does Scotland have any micro climates allowing for local variations?

 

[Wade]

In answer to my own question I found this which doesn't really prove anything but:

"...The longest warm spell was fromNovember 25 to December 14, constituting 20 consecutive days with warmer than average high temperatures. The month of Decemberhad the largest fraction of warmer than average days with 55% days with higher than average high temperatures..."

"...In relative terms the warmest month was October, with an average high temperature of 56°F, compared to an typical value of 55°F...."

Source:

Historical Weather For 1979 in Glasgow, United Kingdom - WeatherSpark

 

[Spectre73]

This is something that I was thinking about Wade. It is possible that that year had an extended autumn

 

[Spectre73]

If it was down to a hallucination it is possible the shape of the craft and mines were a throw back to Taylor's days in WW2?

He was involved in D Day. Could the mines be a deep rooted fear from that monumental day?

 

[Wade]

Here's another thought IF Mr. Taylor wasn't necessarily aware of what the plant was, it's conceivable that the plant could have hung in there a little bit longer and perhaps this aspect would not have gone by unnoticed "Hey, that's odd I don't usually see this around here this time of year" without really knowing what "it" is and may have examined a little too closely.

 

[Sand]

Atropa Belladonna intoxication: a case report

It’s a fascinating case. And the Belladonna explanation is intriguing. It intrigued me to the point where I ended up reading through quite a few accounts of people describing their experiences on Belladonna (many listed here, some in combination with other substances: Erowid Experience Vaults: Belladonna (also Nightshade) Main Index). The case study posted by Spectre73 is very much in line with what I read.

Here are some observations based on the cases I read. Some are in line with the Belladonna explanation, some not.

• Many of the symptoms that Bob Taylor described, particularly from the time of his blackout to his walk home do strikingly resemble Belladonna exposure. The initial inability to walk, the dizziness, and the thirst are all symptoms I saw repeated in the cases I read.

• One statement I read over and over was individuals saying how real the Belladonna hallucinations seemed, not in the sense of the hallucination being rational but in the sense that the subjects never questioned the hallucinations’ reality. This certainly supports the Belladonna explanation (though "seeming real" also supports a real event).

• Individuals do report blackout periods, periods where they had no idea what happened. These would typically occur after the individual had been experiencing very significant and increasing effects of the drug for at least an hour.

• The timeline is problematic for it being Belladonna. It does not allow sufficient time for the drug to take effect, and it requires the psychotropic and other symptoms of the drug to disappear too quickly. In every case that I read, whether the Belladonna was consumed orally or absorbed transdermally, the individuals described a period of no shorter than 30-40 minutes for the first effect of the drug to become apparent. Burnt cited a reference stating the effects could become apparent in as short as 15 minutes. I did not see that, but even 15 minutes is a difficult fit. In using the coordinates provided by David Slater on the map in his write up (55’54’57.49”N 3’32’41.11”W) and Google maps, I estimated the walk from Taylor’s truck to the clearing to be 175-200 meters (575 – 650 feet). This is assuming Taylor parked along M8 and did not drive a distance into the woods, which would have resulted in a shorter walk. To make the 15 minute period fit we would have to say that Taylor had a substantial exposure to Belladonna immediately after exiting his truck, then progressed along at ½ mph to the clearing, which is 1/6 the average walking speed. It all seems like quite a reach to say Taylor was exposed to Belladonna in the woods, and was then experiencing significant hallucinations by the end of his 200 meter walk.

• It has been estimated that Taylor reached the clearing about 10:30a, though David Slater has said it could have been as late as 10:45a (and in the video Bob Taylor says that he did not reach the woods until about 11:00a). At about 11:45a Taylor had arrived home and was talking with his wife. I have not seen a time estimate for Dr. Adams’ visit, but Adams said he was on call in the “morning”. I would say that it is reasonable to say Taylor was being examined by the doctor no later than 12:45 – 1:00.

• When individuals have a Belladonna reaction on the scale Taylor is said to have had, substantial symptoms continue for hours and often across multiple days. This was universal in the cases I read as well as in the case study Spectre73 posted. The individuals in those cases would have been hallucinating and incoherent at the point Taylor was talking to his wife, Dr. Adams and the police. It is difficult to believe Dr Adams would not have detected any signs of the Belladonna exposure less than 2 hours after Taylor’s severe reaction to the plant, particularly elevated body temperature, rapid pulse and the dilated pupils (which are central to David Slater’s explanation). Dr. Adams would not have needed a familiarity with Belladonna to detect the symptoms that should have been present. Slater does not address the doctor examination in his write up. I think it is good to note, in Spectre73’s posted case study, the substantial symptoms that were being recorded by doctors a day after the girl was exposed to Belladonna.

• Among the cases I read I can’t think of a case where someone said they experienced just one concise hallucination as it is said Taylor did. As would be expected from a hallucinogen, subjects described a continual flow of wide ranging hallucinations, the most common being talking to people who weren’t there. As noted above, these hallucinations continued for hours if not multiple days. In the case study that Spectre73 posted, the girl is still hallucinating on the second day. This was not uncommon in the cases I read. It is strange that Taylor did not experience a single hallucination after the sighting of the UFO.

• Burnt posted the photo of the water dome, which was an enticing idea as the source of the hallucination. I would like to point out, though, that the water dome is north of M8, and Taylor was in the clearing south of M8 where the dome could not be seen. It also appears that, at least today, the dome cannot be seen from a drive along M8 because of the berms and trees along the roadway.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

How long did he work for horticultural board in the location ? Also plant poisoning doubt it unless he eat some magic mushrooms which doubt that as WW2 Veteran he would have done some survival training not some green eye a combat Veteran. More like he telling the truth back then folks did not get the doctor out unless extremely ill.

 

[Burnt State]

Sand, that was a great summary of the points of contention. In listening to his doctor talk about the examination he felt that there were no immediate troubling signs/symptoms that concerned him greatly, but obviously did send him to a hospital for a more detailed check. Unfortunately, this was not completed. There was an alternate suggestion that his symptoms also correspond with an epileptic seizure, though his doctor again felt that if this was due to his meningitis that there would be greater frequency of fits. I've an uncle who has had only two epileptic fits in his lifetime, spaced over a decade apart, but these are controlled through medication. Taylor had been hospitalized that summer prior to the event for headaches, something he complained of greatly following this incident. He was also on heart medication at the time of the incident. The possibility of a medically induced hallucination hangs on along these lines and does not have to deal with any of the other troubling aspects of the belladonna angle in terms of rapidity of onset, though this does vary from person to person, or with the types of prolonged symptoms of belladonna poisoning, though these also are inconsistent. Could it all have been a one off hallucination, as we know that the medical literature supports (re: Oliver Sacks)?

I know that the water tower's distance makes it troubling, but it really is damn enticing as the gate around the tower really does match his description and if there was an hallucinatory event; then, disorientation would be quite likely and who knows how his mind may have reordered the events of the morning. After all, he did go unconscious for a period and how anyone can estimate how long they've been unconscious for is beyond me. And in his statement he keeps referring to the object as a large dome hovering and not a sphere, so there are some gray areas there. If he was under the influence of a chemical agent or medically induced event then his retelling of the tale only has limited validity.

What does make his case quite fascinating is who he is as a person, a mostly no-nonsense war vet who drove tanks and who was really into gardening and being in the woods - even if rare, imho a good gardener will learn about Deadly Nightshade, but this can't be assumed. I've been pointing it out to my kids during dog walks all this past week. There was no profit nor deviation (except for whether or not the main craft had legs) in his story, and there were no other epileptic fits at any point after this incident. His description of what happened, which Slater captures and is found in many film interviews, is that he is quite clear about where he parked the vehicle to gain access to this fire road, which was not directly near the highway; he walked in the dark woods and then came out to the clearing where his eyes got a blast of sunlight and this hovering object that was camouflaged against the background suddenly appeared. This is followed by the ejected sea mines that ramble towards him, the strange gas, the attaching of the spikes to his legs and then unconsciousness. The upwards tears in his clothing at the sides are consistent with an attempt to yank him up and secure him and these penetrated through his longjohns and scraped his legs . His narrative is very clear about this order of events and the clearing where it all happened and there is no talk of disorientation as he is walking down the path. There is a great deal of physical and mental disorientation following the incident. Something physical happened to this man. The contusions on his head speak to this as well.

The timelines are not accurate from anyone and there does not appear to be a specific recording of those timelines anywhere that I can find. Perhaps Malcolm Robinson, the ufologist with the pants, has that specific information as part of his travelling pants speaking tour? This makes nailing down the specifics very difficult.

However, I do feel that robotics makes much more sense as an information gathering approach to exploring the galaxy by advanced life forms, and in such possibly crude means there may not be much concern about what life form is approached or attempted to be secured or even examined. Perhaps securing him was not the primary objective, but just to knock him out, take some quick readings and move on. Does this add more credibility then to Pascagoula and Cisco Grove? Does the camouflage also speak to why Michalak's craft and the Pascagoula craft were not seen by other people nearby? The camouflage in Taylor's case is a really great detail that splits two ways - hallucination or advanced technology?

The evidence in the clearing can be seen as compelling or as discontinuous. Who knows how alien sea mine robots on spikes will in fact move across a landscape, so maybe their lack of even marks is just how 'their' tech works? Would there not be more serious indentations near the point of struggle with the victim? Why are they all uniform in depth and was this reflective of some other structure that had been built and removed prior to the event? The marks are specific to that area and do not move off from the clearing. The marks appeared fresh according to Police but also contained water which suggested the marks were not there that morning. I remain hesitant about adding all these things up to say UFO, but the whole thing certainly spells High Strange and it speaks to how complex good UFO cases are that involve a single witness. I think that wraps it up for me unless the epileptic or mini-stroke angle can be developed.

 

[Trajanus]

Something physical happened to this man. The contusions on his head speak to this as well.

So it wasn't all just in his head.

However, I do feel that robotics makes much more sense as an information gathering approach to exploring the galaxy

Depends on how easy space travel might someday be, with far better technology.

Does the camouflage also speak to why Michalak's craft and the Pascagoula craft were not seen by other people nearby?

I heard of people not far from the latter, but the former? Michalak had to walk some distance to get help.

 

[Spectre73]

Superb summery Sand.

I contacted Malcolm Robinson and he supplied me with the following report regarding the Belladonna angle.

 

[Burnt State]

So it wasn't all just in his head.

hmmm...did I ever say it was all in his head? I was just exploring the atropine angle as what appears to be the most likely earthbound explanation that I favor. Robinson does not really dismiss Slater's theory in his report. I could have picked the epileptic angle to explore in a similar fashion. Either way, something physical did happen to him biologically which may or may not have been responsible for the physical wounds that followed. Without question either a chemical agent was introduced into his system or there was a bio-chemical process that took place in his system.

Was there an external agent involved - hard to tell? With all individual witness cases determining how much was in their heads vs. how much was the result of an external agent is almost impossible to tell. i.e. did an alien reconnaissance probe create these images in his head, did it all happen in physical reality as described or was it all in his head? How can we know the difference? I stumble on those issues all the time.

Depends on how easy space travel might someday be, with far better technology.

for many anti-ETH reasons I find it difficult to comprehend why an advanced life form would bother to collect data in person or risk life and limb in space travel, regardless of their advanced tech. The best anti-anti-ETH proposal comes from Eric Wargo where he postulates self-replicating probes sent on a total information gathering quest. This is mathematically possible and seems more of a reasonable undertaking for advanced societies IMHO. It also makes plausible a lot of what we call the UFO phenomenon and satisfies Vallée's thermostat/control theory and even his most recent information theory. I also take issue with the circus show aspect of the phenomenon where something appears to be stressing their collecting of soil,water, sperm, eggs and other bio data as if they have come from outer space. I'm not saying it's crypto or IDH but that this is a very problematic feature of the phenomenon.

I heard of people not far from the latter, but the former? Michalak had to walk some distance to get help.

that's what I thought too but Rutkowski informs us that there were Park Rangers manning towers in the vicinity on fire lookout that should definitely have seen the ship. Rutkowski probably knows the most about this case than anyone - I really wish he would produce a book on this favorite. Michalak, more than anyone, totally captured my childhood brain with proof of aliens. The exhaust burns remain a scintillating feature but are still just anomalous.

 

[Burnt State]

P.S. @Spectre73 , this has been a very worthwhile thread and wish there were more of these relaxed, but detailed examinations of key cases like this one. This multilateral probing tends to demonstrate just how truly complex Ufological investigation is and how indeterminate it can remain even after squeezing the facts of these old cases. A Zeitetic approach yields a lot more of an open ended approach that tends to explore more related disciplines and demonstrates that certainty is very hard to come by in this area. In these three pages most of the very relevant investigation and best theories have been explored and nitpicked. It provides the reader with other avenues of pursuit as well, and may even discover new roads to travel indirectly. This demonstrates the value of a collaborative model for investigation.

 

[Spectre73]

P.S. @Spectre73 , this has been a very worthwhile thread and wish there were more of these relaxed, but detailed examinations of key cases like this one. This multilateral probing tends to demonstrate just how truly complex Ufological investigation is and how indeterminate it can remain even after squeezing the facts of these old cases. A Zeitetic approach yields a lot more of an open ended approach that tends to explore more related disciplines and demonstrates that certainty is very hard to come by in this area. In these three pages most of the very relevant investigation and best theories have been explored and nitpicked. It provides the reader with other avenues of pursuit as well, and may even discover new roads to travel indirectly. This demonstrates the value of a collaborative model for investigation.

I agree Burnt State. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and looking into the information shared on these pages.

Very pleased my first post opened up detailed debate

 

[Trajanus]

for many anti-ETH reasons I find it difficult to comprehend why an advanced life form would bother to collect data in person or risk life and limb in space travel, regardless of their advanced tech.

But many of the reported entities could be just expendable cyborgs or something. And data collection may not be the purpose in all or most cases. Maybe they're familiarizing themselves with a world they plan to takeover before long.

The best anti-anti-ETH proposal comes from Eric Wargo where he postulates self-replicating probes sent on a total information gathering quest. This is mathematically possible and seems more of a reasonable undertaking for advanced societies IMHO.

It's been some time since von Neuman proposed this. Self replicating machines may be mathematically possible but I doubt we'll see them anytime soon if ever. A craft is supposed to land on an alien world and built a duplicate of itself, by itself, from scratch using local, unrefined materials....

that's what I thought too but Rutkowski informs us that there were Park Rangers manning towers in the vicinity on fire lookout that should definitely have seen the ship.

Why didn't Michalak go to them and ask them to get help, if they were near?