March 6th show

[mike]

Another good show , Thanks for taking the time and i imagine, extra effort to record it on the bounce.
Mr Dolans book sounds right up my alley, will have to keep an eye out for a copy.

As usual talk about Djinns demons and angels always leaves me cold, and while i can see where these descriptions have a place in the genre, i personally dont find them significant as "descriptions/labels"

To me the comparrison is a bit like a child 4000 years ago looking up into the stary sky and asking what they are to be told they are the campfires of the dead ancestors, where today we use terms like Suns, and red giants, blue and red supergiants, blue and red hypergiants

Yes both examples describe the same phenomena, but one is so much better a description than the other.
Im always frustrated when researchers fall back on outdated labels.
Mr Streiber sums it up in his latest journal

that mankind had a chance at contact, the single greatest event in the history of the planet and the species, and they somehow ruined it? They could have done. At the time of the Roswell Incident, as now, many US Air Force personnel are conservative Christians, and believe that their can be no life in the universe except human beings, angels and demons, and that only demons travel the universe in conveyances. Angels don't need them.​

This fiction is taken very seriously, so it could be one of the motivations for coverup. The fear would be that revealing the truth would destroy cherished beliefs​

Read the original source: http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/proof-coverup-strongest-evidence-yet#ixzz1FxzVPkx9​

As always im happy to concede that these labels might be describing the same phenomena, just as campfires of the dead was used to label the stars, i just dont think they are useful as labels.

I also find this "extra dimensional" fad a bit sad too, again i can envisage methods of travel that might make it look like they come from another dimension, just as passengers at an airport arrival lounge look like they come from an aeroplane or the sky (instead of just another country).
But our galaxy alone has over a hundred billion stars. We know that this planet has life and that it orbits a star, we know other stars have planets, we know for a fact we can visit other planets as we have sent probes to those closest to us.we dont know for a fact that extra dimensions are habitable. So on the balance of probability the ETH seems more likely than the EDH.

starting here
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/12lys.html

And using the zoom out feature, i fail to understand why anyone would think the EDH was more likely than the ETH
Of course i do believe there are twists to the ETH that most people dont consider, defining the ETH from within the model of biological existance we see here.
But to me the ETH is the most likely of the two scenarios

 

[Terjarv]

I also find this "extra dimensional" fad a bit sad too, again i can envisage methods of travel that might make it look like they come from another dimension, just as passengers at an airport arrival lounge look like they come from an aeroplane or the sky (instead of just another country).
But our galaxy alone has over a hundred billion stars. We know that this planet has life and that it orbits a star, we know other stars have planets, we know for a fact we can visit other planets as we have sent probes to those closest to us.we dont know for a fact that extra dimensions are habitable. So on the balance of probability the ETH seems more likely than the EDH.

Because there is the same amount of concrete irrefutable evidence for both theories...and that amount is ZERO.

 

[CapnG]

GREAT show this week, guys. Good guests, smart questions, nice follow-through and yet neither soft pitches nor sound beatings ensued.

Balanced, insightful, informative, perfect. Vintage Paracast.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Another good show , Thanks for taking the time and i imagine, extra effort to record it on the bounce.... As usual talk about Djinns demons and angels always leaves me cold.... i personally dont find them significant as "descriptions/labels." To me the comparrison is a bit like a child 4000 years ago looking up into the stary sky and asking what they are to be told they are the campfires of the dead ancestors, where today we use terms like Suns, and red giants, blue and red supergiants, blue and red hypergiants...Yes both examples describe the same phenomena, but one is so much better a description than the other....Im always frustrated when researchers fall back on outdated labels....I fail to understand why anyone would think the EDH was more likely than the ETH. Of course i do believe there are twists to the ETH that most people dont consider, defining the ETH from within the model of biological existance [sic] we see here.
But to me the ETH is the most likely of the two scenarios

It was a good show. And fun. And yes you are rite--it hastaBalienz, right? As to your analogy: YES, the ETH is by far the easiest, most "slam-dunk" explanation--that's why we should look at every other possibility before jumping toward the obvious. See Occam: Factor out all close-system explanations before jumping off-planet. *cue circus music* See that hand w/ the alien-headed puppet? Uhh...
*smile*

 

[mike]

Because there is the same amount of concrete irrefutable evidence for both theories...and that amount is ZERO.

I disagree, there is concrete evidence that other planets exist, that the milky way is chock full of them, and that the universe is chock full of galaxys and superclusters, solid concrete irrefutable evidence these systems exist.

Outside quantum theory ive seen no evidence for extra dimensions, that those dimensions contain sentient flying craft building entitys, or that those dimensions can interface with our own.

In my view the balance of probability is for the ETH being more likely than the EDH

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------

It was a good show. And fun. And yes you are rite--it hastaBalienz, right? As to your analogy: YES, the ETH is by far the easiest, most "slam-dunk" explanation--that's why we should look at every other possibility before jumping toward the obvious. See Occam: Factor out all close-system explanations before jumping off-planet. *cue circus music* See that hand w/ the alien-headed puppet? Uhh...
*smile*

Im well familiar with Occams razor, its why i say the ETH is more likely.
Ive always entertained close system explanations however, time travellers, cryptos and nazi bell etc.

But our galaxy (let alone our solar system)doesnt even show up as a single pixel in this pic

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html

The idea that we would be alone inside this system is to me an absurd notion.

There are of course many possible explanations, but this universe given its magnitude of size and relative consistancy.
(ie: suns/stars, planetary systems/ Galactic systems) ranks top of the list in my view.
Put simply they have to be there, the alternative is that in all that matter,organised in relatively consistent models, we alone are a single oasis of life...... not a premise i find plausible at all.
IMO its the simplest and most likely of answers.
As i said earlier suggesting they are extra dimensional because of the way they appear, is like suggesting passengers at the arrivals terminal at an airport are "from the sky".........

The big metal bird comes down from out of the sky and these people come out, ergo the people must come from the sky, they must live up there in the clouds.....

Personally i think in terms of the ETH with a twist, that any sufficiently advanced species becomes post biological, that the vistors for want of a better term are most likely "dead" aliens to use our own biological model terms, and that some of them are our own "dead", using technology given to us by other post biological species.
So i can hardly be labelled a boring old ETH supporter, but as a basis for the reality (as i see it) the ETH works just fine

*Smiles back*

 

[Terjarv]

I disagree, there is concrete evidence that other planets exist, that the milky way is chock full of them, and that the universe is chock full of galaxys and superclusters, solid concrete irrefutable evidence these systems exist.

Outside quantum theory ive seen no evidence for extra dimensions, that those dimensions contain sentient flying craft building entitys, or that those dimensions can interface with our own.

In my view the balance of probability is for the ETH being more likely than the EDH

Having an understanding about universe and how vast it is does not make ETH more probable. We have more of an understanding of our solar system and galaxy than we do for string theory, sure I'll give you that but this doesn't discount EDH. The ETH hypothesis is not something that was formed out of probability, it is formed from FAITH.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 PM ----------

Personally i think in terms of the ETH with a twist, that any sufficiently advanced species becomes post biological, that the vistors for want of a better term are most likely "dead" aliens to use our own biological model terms, and that some of them are our own "dead", using technology given to us by other post biological species.
So i can hardly be labelled a boring old ETH supporter, but as a basis for the reality (as i see it) the ETH works just fine
*Smiles back*

Write a sci fi novel about that, I'd read it!

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------

The idea that we would be alone inside this system is to me an absurd notion.

Agreed, and there is some real evidence to discount the idea that we are alone BUT it doesn't mean that ET comes here just to tool around our solar system and play with our nuclear launch controls.

 

[mike]

I disagree the ETH is born of faith, in my case its born of logic.
If we could not see other stars/galaxys and i posited there were sentient creatures "out there" that would be faith.
But we can see systems and models just like our own, its logic therefore not faith that suggests similar models would produce similar results ie life.

My personal theory is this:

The universe spawns biological life, some of it evolves to sentience.
That sentience in accordance with the survival drive we see in all terrestrial biological models uses technology to become post biological, reshaping its bioform, and even transfering the core of that sentience onto more stable support platforms than the original bioform, which typically has evolved to function within the specific biosphere of its inception.

That this post biological sentience is better suited to the vast distances and timescales that are the physical universe, and that this form of sentience is the most likely to travel and be visting us.
That the vast majority of space faring sentient beings are of this nature. That the greater percentage of galactic/universal populations are of this nature.

That unaltered native bioforms are only good for the biosphere they evolved in

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...girl-conceived-deep-space-say-scientists.html

That sucessful space faring species will have changed themselves to better suit the environment that is the vastness of time and space.

That these changes will include the transfer of conciousness from the original native bioform to engineered and even non biological platforms.

We see the universe thru the filter of our native bioforms, thus most see the ETH as being flesh and blood critters from another planet.
For me the ETH is a little more complex than that, but its the basic foundation of which my own view of whats happening is based.

Why would one post biological sentience help another bioplanetary species make this leap ?
well take a look at that atlas of the universe i posted, its all the same, galaxy after galaxy after galaxy. whats unique, truly unique is each individuals personal experience, conciousness is unique.
There are no two alike in the whole universe, even when talking about twins.

Imo if you look at the UFO enigma through the filter of this idea....... it all falls into place

 

[CapnG]

The ETH hypothesis is not something that was formed out of probability, it is formed from FAITH.

Faith by definition is born purely from wishful thinking. The ETH actually has a foundation in reality in-so-much-as there are other planets. Last month we found SIX extra-solar planets around ONE star. That's added to an existing catalogue of hundreds and that's just in the tiny sliver of the sky we've searched. I'd say that's extra weight on the probability side of the scale over the faith side.

Personally, I think people just like dumpnig on the ETH because it's not sexy anymore, it's old hat and frankly a little boring. That doesn't suddenly rule it out however.

 

[Ezechiel]

Personally, I think people just like dumpnig on the ETH because it's not sexy anymore, it's old hat and frankly a little boring. That doesn't suddenly rule it out however.

The more 'goldylocks zone' planets we discover, the more credibility ETH gets. I'd love to see fusion energy propulsion systems tested in my lifetime .

Getting telemetry back from an accelerating craft testing Einsteins speed of light limitation while it orbits our solar system would be spectacular !

Mastering fusion (star power) is the first key to interstellar space travel and should enable migrations to other planets... Why there are no fast development 'Manhattan project' type initiatives for this is mind boggling ?!?!

There are 2 major high profile projects concentrating on fusion: ITER (Cadarache France) and NIF (national ignition facility Laurence Livermore US). Have you heard of them? Probably not... Barely any publicity ?!?? WTF lol

Sorry for the rant but this is 2011 and we're still doped on polluting fossil fuels when we could be exploring mars right now

 

[Terjarv]

Faith by definition is born purely from wishful thinking. The ETH actually has a foundation in reality in-so-much-as there are other planets. Last month we found SIX extra-solar planets around ONE star. That's added to an existing catalogue of hundreds and that's just in the tiny sliver of the sky we've searched. I'd say that's extra weight on the probability side of the scale over the faith side.

Personally, I think people just like dumpnig on the ETH because it's not sexy anymore, it's old hat and frankly a little boring. That doesn't suddenly rule it out however.

Boring? I don't find ETH boring at all... Finding distant planets that may support life does not mean these planets have intelligent life and certainly does not mean they come here in nuts and bolts flying saucers. We simply have ZERO evidence that any UFO has arrived here from another planet and until we do all of the theories are just as viable. A real "hypothesis" is supported by evidence...we don't have any!

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

I disagree the ETH is born of faith, in my case its born of logic.
If we could not see other stars/galaxys and i posited there were sentient creatures "out there" that would be faith.
But we can see systems and models just like our own, its logic therefore not faith that suggests similar models would produce similar results ie life.

My personal theory is this:

The universe spawns biological life, some of it evolves to sentience.
That sentience in accordance with the survival drive we see in all terrestrial biological models uses technology to become post biological, reshaping its bioform, and even transfering the core of that sentience onto more stable support platforms than the original bioform, which typically has evolved to function within the specific biosphere of its inception.

That this post biological sentience is better suited to the vast distances and timescales that are the physical universe, and that this form of sentience is the most likely to travel and be visting us.
That the vast majority of space faring sentient beings are of this nature. That the greater percentage of galactic/universal populations are of this nature.

That unaltered native bioforms are only good for the biosphere they evolved in

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...girl-conceived-deep-space-say-scientists.html

That sucessful space faring species will have changed themselves to better suit the environment that is the vastness of time and space.

That these changes will include the transfer of conciousness from the original native bioform to engineered and even non biological platforms.

We see the universe thru the filter of our native bioforms, thus most see the ETH as being flesh and blood critters from another planet.
For me the ETH is a little more complex than that, but its the basic foundation of which my own view of whats happening is based.

Why would one post biological sentience help another bioplanetary species make this leap ?
well take a look at that atlas of the universe i posted, its all the same, galaxy after galaxy after galaxy. whats unique, truly unique is each individuals personal experience, conciousness is unique.
There are no two alike in the whole universe, even when talking about twins.

Imo if you look at the UFO enigma through the filter of this idea....... it all falls into place

Like I said, very interesting idea that would make a terrific sci fi novel...

 

[Will Penguin]

I thoroughly enjoyed the show, Gene and Chris! Any episode with Richard Dolan is a good one in my book.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I thoroughly enjoyed the show, Gene and Chris! Any episode with Richard Dolan is a good one in my book.

It's funny. There's some wacky people in a forum who are ranting how we are defaming Dolan here. Now I know one of our previous forum moderators wrote a review trashing one of Dolan's books, but we get along well with Dolan; we ran his rebuttal too here I might add. I don't agree with everything he says, but he's a gentleman, and totally sincere in his beliefs. And, no, Dolan didn't walk the other way when Chris and I approached him at the UFO convention.

But I do wonder about people who are so jealous of what we do that they have to constantly fabricate controversies where none exist. Well, so long as our names are spelled correctly.

 

[Will Penguin]

It's funny. There's some wacky people in a forum who are ranting how we are defaming Dolan here. Now I know one of our previous forum moderators wrote a review trashing one of Dolan's books, but we get along well with Dolan; we ran his rebuttal too here I might add. I don't agree with everything he says, but he's a gentleman, and totally sincere in his beliefs. And, no, Dolan didn't walk the other way when Chris and I approached him at the UFO convention.

But I do wonder about people who are so jealous of what we do that they have to constantly fabricate controversies where none exist. Well, so long as our names are spelled correctly.

Well, what would be the point if we all agreed on everything?

I've never heard The Paracast be anything but polite with Dolan, and as for Dolan; he consistently comes off as engaging, personable, and diligent. Fabricating controversy is par for the course, I guess.

 

[Ezechiel]

Boring? I don't find ETH boring at all... Finding distant planets that may support life does not mean these planets have intelligent life and certainly does not mean they come here in nuts and bolts flying saucers. We simply have ZERO evidence that any UFO has arrived here from another planet and until we do all of the theories are just as viable. A real "hypothesis" is supported by evidence...we don't have any!
Like I said, very interesting idea that would make a terrific sci fi novel...

Considering the trouble UFO's gave hundreds aviators from WWII onwards as well as the testimony of very qualified astronauts (Cooper, Mitchell... etc.), suppressed radar tracking logs... documented events (Rendlesham) who's documentation magically disappeared and fetid investigation efforts (ie. Blue book) that affirmed that these phenomenon posed no security threat (ie. Malmstrom missile shutdowns). .... I think its a fair assessment to propose that something real is going on here, unless you'd like to postulate that the sum of all these observations and courageous disclosures equals zero.

I want to see the Cooper film and Jesse Marcel's hieroglyphic plate don't you ? Fess up US air force lol.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Well, what would be the point if we all agreed on everything?

I've never heard The Paracast be anything but polite with Dolan, and as for Dolan; he consistently comes off as engaging, personable, and diligent. Fabricating controversy is par for the course, I guess.

I don't dwell much on the Paracast Hater Brigade. But I catch that nonsense every so often in my online wanderings.

 

[Terjarv]

Considering the trouble UFO's gave hundreds aviators from WWII onwards as well as the testimony of very qualified astronauts (Cooper, Mitchell... etc.), suppressed radar tracking logs... documented events (Rendlesham) who's documentation magically disappeared and fetid investigation efforts (ie. Blue book) that affirmed that these phenomenon posed no security threat (ie. Malmstrom missile shutdowns). .... I think its a fair assessment to propose that something real is going on here, unless you'd like to postulate that the sum of all these observations and courageous disclosures equals zero.

I want to see the Cooper film and Jesse Marcel's hieroglyphic plate don't you ? Fess up US air force lol.

I'm referring to the simple fact that we have no evidence that UFOs are extraterrestrials. I certainly agree that UFOs are real but UFOs are unidentified flying objects...UFO doesn't mean little green men from a distant galaxy. There is a myriad of evidence to support that UFO observations are a real phenomena, but not to support the ETH hypothesis. I'm simply challenging the ETH horn-blowing going on.

---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------

I don't dwell much on the Paracast Hater Brigade. But I catch that nonsense every so often in my online wanderings.

Gene this is easily and without a doubt the best paranormal radio show I've come across. Some episodes are a little woo woo (Schroom and LSD guy who sees UFOs comes to mind) but you guys take a far better approach than anyone else. I can listen to this show without feeling like a complete crazy!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Thank you. But we're not an educational institution, so we will sometimes bring on guests who have interesting stories to tell. Just pass the salt and have fun. Sometimes these people may be on target, but suspending your disbelief for a few hours never hurts.

 

[CapnG]

Finding distant planets that may support life does not mean these planets have intelligent life and certainly does not mean they come here in nuts and bolts flying saucers.

It increases it's odds of likelyhood as an explanation versus say discovering a vast underground city full of magical fairies.

We simply have ZERO evidence that any UFO has arrived here from another planet and until we do all of the theories are just as viable.

If you think all theories are equally viable you're either dedicated to an imposed false neutrality or biased against some theories (ETH most prominantly) and less biased against others.

Now don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying the ETH is the ONLY viable theory nor am I saying ALL UFOs must be ET. All theories are to be considered but there's a distinct difference between consideration and likelyhood and it is my opinion that compared to more exotic theories like time travellers and extra-dimensional entities, the ETH is simply more realistic in the majority of cases.

 

[Ezechiel]

I'm referring to the simple fact that we have no evidence that UFOs are extraterrestrials. I certainly agree that UFOs are real but UFOs are unidentified flying objects...UFO doesn't mean little green men from a distant galaxy. There is a myriad of evidence to support that UFO observations are a real phenomena, but not to support the ETH hypothesis. I'm simply challenging the ETH horn-blowing going on.

I understand your point of view. I would replace the earth-centric ETH with a more generic OCCH (Off our Civilization Chart Hypothesis) in a nano-second lol. In my twisted mind, where these entities come from or what color they are is irrelevant (once you've kicked Einstein limitations)

Some of the observed objects in the sky, displaying behaviors inconsistent with current known physical laws, indicate that some civilization has found space/time shortcuts where distance becomes a non-issue. These assumed 'galactic' citizens should be able to go where they want, when they want, with a relative snap of their fingers. Once you break Einstein, you can potentially live anywhere.. (Andromeda galaxy and under Iceland's ice cap having some tea the next day)

Also, the extremely 'stealthy' behavior of this phenomenon is consistent with current earthly military technology goals: zero signature, visual, radar, heat... etc. and it would be very dishonest not to extend this cloaky-dokey reflex to alien races keeping a tab on us. When we start investigating these so-called 'goldylock zone' planets with inter-stellar probes, its a safe bet in Vegas that they'll also be very stealthy and rigged with self-destruction features. (Bye Bye evidence)

As for ETH... If the phenomena is not originating from outside the atmosphere of earth, then the only possibility left is that a parallel civilization is operating under our noses. A homo-sapien breakaway civilization ? (Neanderthals ?).... Here comes ATS...
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread668411/pg1

However, if you're not religiously challenged you might embrace the idea of angels and demons... GASP !

IMHO, If we didn`t build these things then OCCH kicks in (Off our Civilization Chart), thus requiring more investigation

 

[tyder001]

I'm referring to the simple fact that we have no evidence that UFOs are extraterrestrials. I certainly agree that UFOs are real but UFOs are unidentified flying objects...UFO doesn't mean little green men from a distant galaxy. There is a myriad of evidence to support that UFO observations are a real phenomena, but not to support the ETH hypothesis. I'm simply challenging the ETH horn-blowing going on.

Totally agree!