Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[Jimi H.]

Suit yourself, I still think I got the gist of what you were saying, here's how you started assessing him:

..He is by all intents and purposes a criminal trying to make out that he's the good guy.

So, it seems to me you're mad, and you're calling 'our' guest a bonafide criminal. Why not point out Striebers cowardly behaviour instead?

From my perspective, Williams is a bonafide real-life non-paranormal trickster, and some people swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

 

[dr.abbadon]

Suit yourself, I still think I got the gist of what you were saying, here's how you started assessing him:

Why are you so upset? You're calling 'our' guest a bonafide criminal? Why not point out Striebers cowardly behaviour instead?

From my perspective, he is a bonafide real-life non-paranormal trickster, and some people swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

You really are a beauty as we say here in OZ...the guy destroys peoples crops and then says after being asked by gene and chris, why is the number of crops diminishing?...and he says "because it costs alot of money to be involved in this past time...insert facepalm...so the poor farmers who are living on the bread line because multinational corporations are raping them should foot the bill for this guys illegal activities? During the interview he was asked why they couldn't ask the farmers if they could use the fields with their knowledge and he replies..we couldn't afford the cost to create the circles..again it's ok for the farmers to foot the bill? Is he a criminal? you tell me?

 

[Jimi H.]

I did notice that, he didn't seem to consider the loss of crop, at all. No, I don't think that is morally sound, but on the other hand, no, I don't consider him a real criminal, and I don't feel the need to call him that, likewise I don't consider graffiti-artists 'criminals'. They do damage stuff, and should be fined, but I wouldn't use the word 'criminal'.

A 'trickster' may damage stuff while bringing enlightenment to the genteel citizens, I don't condone it, but that can be a part of it. I'd never accept bodily harm though.

I consider Strieber the bigger douche in the Williams/Strieber debacle tbh.

 

[Muadib]

I find it strange that these objections to criminality weren't raised in the Colin Andrews thread, if as he claims he made a crop circle with the spooky power of his mind, isn't he just as much of a criminal as Williams? Or is that somehow OK? I have to be honest, I find the passions raised on both sides of this debate a lot more interesting than I find the crop circles themselves. If these circles truly are made by so called "higher" intelligences, why can't they figure out a better way to communicate with us? Why does it always have to be indirect and cryptic rather than direct communication? If they're trying to get a message across to the world, obviously it has largely been a failed operation because besides new age and paranormal believers, nobody really cares. Just some food for thought and since I don't have a dog in this fight, I'll just sit back and watch.

 

[dr.abbadon]

I did notice that, he didn't seem to consider the loss of crop, at all. No, I don't think that is morally sound, but on the other hand, no, I don't consider him a real criminal, and I don't feel the need to call him that, likewise I don't consider graffiti-artists 'criminals'. They do damage stuff, and should be fined, but I wouldn't use the word 'criminal'.

I consider Strieber the bigger douche in the Williams/Strieber debacle tbh.

How can you compare graffiti to
CC is beyond me! Art it it yes but usually with a can of paint you can fix the graffiti problem and it's usually on public property, the farmers and their families just can't fix the crop damage in a day of two?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jimi H.]

How can you compare graffiti to CC is beyond me! ..

A lot of graffitti is made on private property, if that's the problem for you in that comparison.

 

[trainedobserver]

I just listened to the interview with MW. It was a well-laundered version of the history of crop circles and of the organized hoaxing program in Wiltshire centered at Circlemakers.org. MW hardly mentions that core group, and indeed he's never been part of their 'inner circle', though he might be employed by the same people who have employed the core group (not only to hoax crop circles but to produce disinformation concerning crop circles and cc research and to add to existing disinformation concerning ufo history).

I don't get it Constance. What is the "disinformation" exactly? You sound like you are in the Richard Hall camp on this.

The facts seem pretty straight forward. Complex Crop Circles are made by people. If you know what to look for, it's easy enough to tell.

Like all things that people are involved in there are factions that want to exploit the mystery of "Who makes the circles?" to their own ends. The latest exploit is, "Although they are made by people, the paranormal influences them." I just have a good belly laugh at this last ditch effort to save the crop circle cottage industry of selling calendars, books, charging fees to walk circles, remain reliant, and so forth.

 

[Jimi H.]

I find it strange that these objections to criminality weren't raised in the Colin Andrews thread, if as he claims he made a crop circle with the spooky power of his mind, isn't he just as much of a criminal as Williams?

Good point! Of course, to answer your question from my perspective, it's a matter of bias.

 

[Muadib]

Good point! Of course, to answer your question from my perspective, it's a matter of bias.

Probably true and it plays into the inconsistencies present in many of these beliefs when it comes to "spirit" or whatever you want to call it. It just doesn't make sense to me that if you believe in things like channeling and automatic writing, which are more direct forms of communication from "spirit" (supposedly) then why do they have to resort to placing cryptic messages in wheat fields? Yet it seems to me that most of the people who advocate crop circles as potential messages from "higher" intelligences also buy into the whole channeling thing. Why the need for two radically different kinds of communication to get your point across, and why if the point of crop circles is to convey a message to the world at large, would they continue to do so when it's obvious that 95% of the world couldn't care less? Wouldn't they figure out a new and more effective way to communicate? Why does supposed "higher" intelligence seem so... dim?

 

[dr.abbadon]

Probably true and it plays into the inconsistencies present in many of these beliefs when it comes to "spirit" or whatever you want to call it. It just doesn't make sense to me that if you believe in things like channeling and automatic writing, which are more direct forms of communication from "spirit" (supposedly) then why do they have to resort to placing cryptic messages in wheat fields? Yet it seems to me that most of the people who advocate crop circles as potential messages from "higher" intelligences also buy into the whole channeling thing. Why the need for two radically different kinds of communication to get your point across, and why if the point of crop circles is to convey a message to the world at large, would they continue to do so when it's obvious that 95% of the world couldn't care less? Wouldn't they figure out a new and more effective way to communicate? Why does supposed "higher" intelligence seem so... dim?

I couldn't agree more. I can't believe the whole channeling mumbo jumbo. Again why would an intelligent life form choose to crush a wheat crop to communicate.

 

[Jimi H.]

Yea, like in the case of Colin Andrews who claimed that the aliens gave him proof that the world is going under from pollution. Yet, the proof was so cryptic it didn't help at all. I don't think aliens who travelled across the universe would be that miserable at communicating, how would they ever get anything done, even building a spaceship?

 

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

Suit yourself, I still think I got the gist of what you were saying, here's how you started assessing him:

So, it seems to me you're mad, and you're calling 'our' guest a bonafide criminal. Why not point out Striebers cowardly behaviour instead?

From my perspective, Williams is a bonafide real-life non-paranormal trickster, and some people swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

He was arrested and convicted of a crime..i.e. destruction of private property, and had to pay a fine. Luckily for him the sentence was light. I'm not going to get into a debate over whether or not it should be an offence or not, but surely you wouldn't argue that damaging/destroying someone's private property (in this case a farm) is acceptable? He committed a crime, was found guilty of said crime, and therefore to all intents and purposes, is a criminal. Fairly obvious, right?

Oh go on, I'll bite. How does a "trickster" such as Williams enlighten genteel citizens? That's a good one.

 

[Muadib]

Yea, like in the case of Colin Andrews who claimed that the aliens gave him proof that the world is going under from pollution. Yet, the proof was so cryptic it didn't help at all. I don't think aliens who travelled across the universe would be that miserable at communicating, how would they ever get anything done, even building a spaceship?

Yes, it makes even less sense if you identify the circle makers as aliens from another planet or galaxy, I prefer to remain vague and call it "higher" intelligences because that deals with both the idea of aliens and communication from the spirit world and it helps in illuminating some of the silliness of the whole idea. For example, why is it that crop formations that do contain information always contain information that we already know? It strikes me as odd that a "higher" intelligence would have nothing else to illuminate for us besides that which is already well known, why not give us the answer to the mystery of dark matter or at least point us in the correct direction? Why not usable, specific tips for bringing about world peace? How about hints at a propulsion system that would make interplanetary travel possible? I can't think of anything that would be better for the global consciousness than further removing us from our earth centric view of the world, and yet to my knowledge there have been no messages with useable information that is beyond what is currently known.

Crop circles may be complex, but since none of the concepts that they present are outside of the range of current human knowledge, I personally don't see any reason to believe that they are made by anything but regular human beings. Of course, that's just my opinion and as David used to say, I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[Jimi H.]

..

Oh go on, I'll bite. How does a "trickster" such as Williams enlighten genteel citizens? That's a good one.

By revealing their own fantasies or lies to themselves. That is also one of the typical roles of the trickster, or joker, or jester, namely revealing the truth. A court jester is someone who can speak the truth, teasingly, or provocatively, while others are sent to the gallows for speaking the same truth. The jester can get away with it because the jester allows that he is at the same time laughing stock.

Indeed, I see Williams' video about the LMH umbrella-gate as a court jester's message to the paranormal populace: The queen of paranormal is not to be trusted.

I found a fine description here (Collective Genius!: We Need More Court Jesters)
"The Court Jester was the one who could challenge traditional, conventional wisdom by doing one thing: making fun of it. He might highlight the seemingly trivial elements of an idea, or he might downplay what everyone else was ooo-ing and ah-ing over. He might parody the players connected with an idea so the king could see the idea in a new light. He might reverse everything - logistically, chronologically, philosophically - allowing those in his audience to see it from different angles. Regardless of how he accomplished it, the Court Jester was the one person whose perspective could rise above the knowledge of the King's advisors (translated: yes men)."

 

[UKCurmudgeon]

I am currently listening to the latest episode, and I confess that I am very uneasy about the bio details he has just given.As a former employee of the same branch and also others, I can tell you that to be fired so easily is literally impossible in the U.K Civil Service.Matthew Williams is in my opinion, spinning you a line.I would also comment that there are many people in similar jobs (very low level, from the description given of Mr Williams' duties) who actively participate in paranormal related activities and whom, do so openly, even organising UFO watches and ghost hunts with colleagues.

I speak from personal experience.I have also never known an icon on a screen be an issue, and all works stations should be locked if you leave for even 10 seconds.

I understand that it is not easy to know how an overseas government body works, but as a fellow 'Brit' and an avid listener to your show, my B.S meter has just sounded loudly enough to make me put finger to keyboard.

I appreciate that he claimed that the icon on his screen was an excuse, but again, the union representation of Civil Servants is one of the most militant in any sector (as I can testify) of business, and would eat the Civil Service management alive over something like that. And breach of security is not handled lightly with a quick handshake and accompaniment to the door.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not doubting the veracity of the interviewee in terms of his 'paranormal experience', but I do have an issue when 'former government employees' pump themselves up to be far more important than they were.

Even 'front line' officers are only 2-4 points from the bottom of the pay scale for the most part. At grade 2 and 3 (A.O and E.O in standard parlance), I was dealing with fraud, immigration, home visits and case work, and I was openly a 'Pagan', and very open about my interests and appeared on T.V and radio on a matter of subjects.

As long as I did not directly break the law or bring the service into disrepute, I was in one of the safest jobs possible.

Unless you work in Whitehall or one of the security based 'commands' you are really no different to someone who works in any other office environment. A wage slave, is a wage slave.

 

[Muadib]

I am currently listening to the latest episode, and I confess that I am very uneasy about the bio details he has just given.As a former employee of the same branch and also others, I can tell you that to be fired so easily is literally impossible in the U.K Civil Service.Matthew Williams is in my opinion, spinning you a line.I would also comment that there are many people in similar jobs (very low level, from the description given of Mr Williams' duties) who actively participate in paranormal related activities and whom, do so openly, even organising UFO watches and ghost hunts with colleagues.

I speak from personal experience.I have also never known an icon on a screen be an issue, and all works stations should be locked if you leave for even 10 seconds.

I understand that it is not easy to know how an overseas government body works, but as a fellow 'Brit' and an avid listener to your show, my B.S meter has just sounded loudly enough to make me put finger to keyboard.

I appreciate that he claimed that the icon on his screen was an excuse, but again, the union representation of Civil Servants is one of the most militant in any sector (as I can testify) of business, and would eat the Civil Service management alive over something like that. And breach of security is not handled lightly with a quick handshake and accompaniment to the door.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not doubting the veracity of the interviewee in terms of his 'paranormal experience', but I do have an issue when 'former government employees' pump themselves up to be far more important than they were.

Even 'front line' officers are only 2-4 points from the bottom of the pay scale for the most part. At grade 2 and 3 (A.O and E.O in standard parlance), I was dealing with fraud, immigration, home visits and case work, and I was openly a 'Pagan', and very open about my interests and appeared on T.V and radio on a matter of subjects.

As long as I did not directly break the law or bring the service into disrepute, I was in one of the safest jobs possible.

Unless you work in Whitehall or one of the security based 'commands' you are really no different to someone who works in any other office environment. A wage slave, is a wage slave.

Very interesting and informative post, thanks for taking the time to make it. It seems that we have a skeptic who's guilty of embellishing his credentials a bit, which isn't unheard of, but it usually happens (at least from my experience and reading) the other way around ie a researcher or believer inflating their credentials in order to bolster his or her own information and/or importance. Still, I have to ask the question, does this invalidate what he's saying? If we're going to be honest with ourselves and the way we conduct our research, I think it's a major, major problem. I really wish this would've come up prior to the interview so we could've heard his explanation or lack thereof. Perhaps he'll come to the forum and offer us some clarification, if it was my reputation on the line that's the least I would do to clear my name.

Consistency in the way we treat dishonest researchers on either side is extremely important, imo. If the guy is lying about aspects of his background, then we need to take that into consideration, even though he may share our opinions on the human origin of the so called crop circle mystery.

 

[UKCurmudgeon]

As I said previously, I am not questioning his veracity (I am still listening as I work) but if someone starts my B.S alarm ringing, that early on, I'll naturally get suspicious.

 

[Jimi H.]

I am currently listening to the latest episode, and I confess that I am very uneasy about the bio details he has just given.As a former employee of the same branch and also others, I can tell you that to be fired so easily is literally impossible in the U.K Civil Service.Matthew Williams is in my opinion, spinning you a line.I would also comment that there are many people in similar jobs (very low level, from the description given of Mr Williams' duties) who actively participate in paranormal related activities and whom, do so openly, even organising UFO watches and ghost hunts with colleagues....

Good point, I was also surprised that interest in UFOs would be grounds for getting fired. I imagine there may be more to the story, possibly some bad blood between him and his manager? I must admit, it didn't really affect my perception of other things he said, as he didn't try to make it out like his job had any relevance to the crop circles, and he wasn't trying to claim authority on behalf of his former employment.

 

[Muadib]

As I said previously, I am not questioning his veracity (I am still listening as I work) but if someone starts my B.S alarm ringing, that early on, I'll naturally get suspicious.

As you should, and though you yourself may not question his veracity, inevitably others will do so. This is why I'm hoping he takes the time to provide some clarification. I can't be an honest person and maintain that we should throw out the research of other liars like say, Phil Imbrogno, and then give this guy a pass just because he shares my POV, a lie is a lie and if he'll lie about that what else is he lying about? Unless there was some kind of legal issue involved that inhibited his giving us a full disclosure, perhaps some kind of NDA or lawsuit, then I could understand his stretching of the truth.

 

[UKCurmudgeon]

Noted, on both counts.

Rest assured, when I have a strong opinion, I'll voice it. We don't have to agree, but discussion is always healthy.