Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[Jimi H.]

Before I call for help from a third party, maybe you can correct me, maybe I got it wrong? Is this not a snarky way of trying to make it appear as if I have personal interests or even a hand in making crop circles? If so, I'm ready to apologize.

I would like you to tell the farmers that the reason you destroyed his crops was for 'academic study on the paranormal scene.' Tell us the reply you get back from him.

.. I think I understand you just fine.

What did you understand just fine?

 

[Constance]

I actually didn't state what I thought about the topic. I personally don't believe ET and friends(if they actually exist) flew through time and space and then only to try and communicate with us via a wheat field.

I don't know what crop circles are 100%...you don't either for that matter. Are many of them created by humans..yes it's been well documented. What I just can't stomach is Mr Williams all too convenient story telling without ANY evidence of the crop making.

I'm not questioning the fact that crop circles are created by aliens, I'm questioning why Mr Williams after the year 2000. as he says by his own admission, stopped making circles, has continued to vehemently deny the existence of the alien connection between CC creation? He says in his video to the people in the audience, I've waited so long to reveal the truth about crop circles and I think 10 years is long enough for me to do so....but in 2oo2 he hosted the media and anyone else that wantéd to listen to him to a "live" show divulging the "secrets" of the CC community?

what about this little tidbit he got wrong...



Read the whole article here


I take a stab at it for you...he has made a business out of doing the rounds and riding the "skeptic" wave presenting his "truths" to people who have drunk the same cool aid as he has. He is no different to any of the nutjobs doing the same on the other side of the "believers" camp.

dr.abbadon, do you have a link to that article by Mary Bennett reviewing MW's presentation at Devizes town hall? Thanks for the information you provided there.

 

[mike]

I don't think aliens who travelled across the universe would be that miserable at communicating, how would they ever get anything done, even building a spaceship?

I'd like to explore this aspect for a moment

Why shouldnt the means of communicating be subtle, why shouldnt the medium be unconventional

If we consider for a moment that some of these were "messages" then the cryptic aspect might be part and parcel of its purpose.

Now im not going to get into the did ET do it debate again, its been done here already

But ive often played with the idea that some crop circles and some cattle mutes are coming from the same source and are part of a single message
Something that doesnt occur to most people.

The alleged data is this, seeds from real crop circles show increased yeilds in the next sowing, mutilated animals are left untouched even by scavengers.

Might it simply be subtle comentary about our dietry habits ?

Its not inconceivable that a space faring species would have moved beyond the eating of meat for practical and even moral purposes

NASA has been conducting experiments since 2001, producing in vitro meat from turkey cells.[

Its simply not practical to take livestock on long space journeys, thus its not unlikely any species visting earth would have moved beyond using animals as a food source.

So i dont see any flaw in ability to communicate in the idea, if its just a form of political graffiti, then its entirely consistant with our own model.
The artist doesnt want to be known, but they do want to send a message.

The means and the medium may be part of the message itself

Just for the fun

 

[Constance]

I don't get it Constance. What is the "disinformation" exactly? You sound like you are in the Richard Hall camp on this.

The facts seem pretty straight forward.

Very little is 'straightforward' in the insular world of crop circles in Wiltshire, the cchoaxing capital of the planet, where crop circles became a site of ideological struggle decades ago.

Like all things that people are involved in there are factions that want to exploit the mystery of "Who makes the circles?" to their own ends. The latest exploit is, "Although they are made by people, the paranormal influences them." I just have a good belly laugh at this last ditch effort to save the crop circle cottage industry of selling calendars, books, charging fees to walk circles, remain reliant, and so forth.

The question of paranormal influence in crop circles was raised decades ago by cc researchers at the point when it became obvious, in the increasingly complex circles, that intelligence of some kind was involved in the designs, leaving Meaden's purely physical meterological hypothesis behind. It's not serious cc researchers that are currently pushing the theme of 'paranormal influence' on cchoaxers; it's the hoaxers themselves who are doing that. What is their motivation for doing so now? It appears to be a desire to reinspire public interest in crop circles (interest that widespread hoaxing itself destroyed). The question is 'why', for what purpose? Is it civic interest on the part of cchoaxers, given that the local economy depends heavily on tourism centered around the cc? Is it the difficulty of finding something new to occupy the hoaxers' lives and minds after all these years? Is it force of habit? Is it the desire to perpetuate the ideological battles between researchers and hoaxers that have long since transcended the circles themselves in Wiltshire's local 'ccworld'? Maybe all of the above. Maybe more. Jimi H observed in this thread that Wiltshire's ccworld is ripe for sociological analysis and I think he's right about that. But to accomplish such an analysis will be difficult even for a team of sociologists since some of the information needed to understand what happened in Wiltshire over the last four decades is unavailable to the public.

ps: Richard Hall's documentary concerning cchoaxing and hoaxers is only the latest expression of the perception (decades old) that government interest and activities concerning the cc phenomenon have manipulated pubic perceptions concerning the possible origin(s) of crop circles.

 

[Constance]

A 'trickster' may damage stuff while bringing enlightenment to the genteel citizens . . . .

A trickster might also damage stuff in attempting to prevent enlightenment to the genteel citizens.

In point of fact, one of the original CCmakers.org members, Robert Irving, has attempted to employ the 'trickster' in some of his hyper-rhetorical representations defending cchoaxing and seeking to undermine his readers' confidence in collective analysis of and reasoning about all phenomenal appearances encountered in the world. Sorting all this out will be a task for the more philosophically oriented sociologists.

 

[Constance]

Probably true and it plays into the inconsistencies present in many of these beliefs when it comes to "spirit" or whatever you want to call it. It just doesn't make sense to me that if you believe in things like channeling and automatic writing, which are more direct forms of communication from "spirit" (supposedly) then why do they have to resort to placing cryptic messages in wheat fields?

Whoever 'they' are, it's a good question you ask about public presentations of apparently mysterious phenomena. Crop circles are, of course, far from the first example in human history of the appearance of phenomena that challenge the interpretive capabilities of those who witness them. (see Jacques Vallee)

Yet it seems to me that most of the people who advocate crop circles as potential messages from "higher" intelligences also buy into the whole channeling thing.

That might be true of many crop circle followers (often referred to as 'croppies'), but in my experience it's not true of most cc researchers.

Why the need for two radically different kinds of communication to get your point across, and why if the point of crop circles is to convey a message to the world at large, would they continue to do so when it's obvious that 95% of the world couldn't care less?

That's a good question. It may be the case that by now 'they' have stopped trying to communicate this way, at least in Wiltshire. [/quote]

Wouldn't they figure out a new and more effective way to communicate? Why does supposed "higher" intelligence seem so... dim?

Again, whoever 'they' are in the case of crop circles {whether responsible for the laying down of some cc in the past or, as we're told now by the hoaxers' spokesmen, responsible only for inspiring cchoaxers to lay down the formations}, we have no idea how many different kinds of intelligence might operate on and around earth and what sorts of messages they might want to communicate to us.

 

[Constance]

I am currently listening to the latest episode, and I confess that I am very uneasy about the bio details he has just given.As a former employee of the same branch and also others, I can tell you that to be fired so easily is literally impossible in the U.K Civil Service.Matthew Williams is in my opinion, spinning you a line.I would also comment that there are many people in similar jobs (very low level, from the description given of Mr Williams' duties) who actively participate in paranormal related activities and whom, do so openly, even organising UFO watches and ghost hunts with colleagues.

I speak from personal experience.I have also never known an icon on a screen be an issue, and all works stations should be locked if you leave for even 10 seconds.

I understand that it is not easy to know how an overseas government body works, but as a fellow 'Brit' and an avid listener to your show, my B.S meter has just sounded loudly enough to make me put finger to keyboard.

I appreciate that he claimed that the icon on his screen was an excuse, but again, the union representation of Civil Servants is one of the most militant in any sector (as I can testify) of business, and would eat the Civil Service management alive over something like that. And breach of security is not handled lightly with a quick handshake and accompaniment to the door.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not doubting the veracity of the interviewee in terms of his 'paranormal experience', but I do have an issue when 'former government employees' pump themselves up to be far more important than they were.

Even 'front line' officers are only 2-4 points from the bottom of the pay scale for the most part. At grade 2 and 3 (A.O and E.O in standard parlance), I was dealing with fraud, immigration, home visits and case work, and I was openly a 'Pagan', and very open about my interests and appeared on T.V and radio on a matter of subjects.

As long as I did not directly break the law or bring the service into disrepute, I was in one of the safest jobs possible.

Unless you work in Whitehall or one of the security based 'commands' you are really no different to someone who works in any other office environment. A wage slave, is a wage slave.

That's very interesting information which I will share with some cc researchers that are currently critiqueing MW's pronouncements and tactics in the continuing ideological battle over cc origins. One of those researchers theorizes that MW was 'busted' after he had accessed secret facilities (housing ufo watchers, analysts) in tunnels beneath Rudloe Manor in or near Wiltshire county, and that he was offered a deal to avoid prosecution and jail time -- i.e., that he become an MI5 agent. He would be useful to MI5, it's theorized, given his skills in computer hacking and other stealth activities (such as his penetration of underground facilities at the well-guarded Rudloe Manor). Nick Redfern has published a book in recent years that concerns Williams's and a few others' ufo 'spying' activities closely followed by security agents decades ago in the UK (including the penetration of the area beneath Rudloe Manor). The book has been described as disinformation for its representation that the SAS were not seriously attempting to prevent discovery of the UK's actual concern with and vigilance re: ufos, that they actually didn't take Williams' and his colleagues spying activities seriously because they had surmised that there was no reality behind the ufo phenomenon. I think the book is disinformation. Btw, MW comes off very well in Redfern's book, not surprising since Redfern himself has stated that he is a good friend of Matt.

Crop circle noir . . . even deeper than the maize crops in Wiltshire in late summer (in which some daunting crop circles have appeared, though not recently).

 

[Jimi H.]

..

Nice

..

Might it simply be subtle comentary about our dietry habits ?

Its not inconceivable that a space faring species would have moved beyond the eating of meat for practical and even moral purposes

I hear you, I definitly consider that very likely, for both reasons. On the other hand, I guess it depends how a species evolved, and whether the life of other planets can be seperated into plants and animals. I would imagine that's likely, because the first lifeforms would always be simple, and perhaps good at surviving harsh conditions through evolutionary time.

I saw the movie 'Snowwhite and the huntsman' the other day, and there's a scene in a fairy-land where everything seemed to have eyes and intelligence. I loved the scene, but wondered, what the heck did the fairies gonna eat to maintain the holier-than-thou attribute? They'd have to kill something cute and intelligent! Or eat grass.

Yea, I guess I see artificially grown stem-cell meat in the future, it doesn't wet my appetite, but it does appear like a logical step.

..
So i dont see any flaw in ability to communicate in the idea, if its just a form of political graffiti, then its entirely consistant with our own model.
The artist doesnt want to be known, but they do want to send a message.

This is really outside the box thinking! It's not a bad hypothesis, graffitti is an anonymous way of disseminating a message, something which might indeed appeal to a hidden being - and coincidentally my personal affinity for the green cause always makes me susceptible to cases involving the green message, e.g. the case with the school children in Zimbabwe (I'm really looking forward to the coming documentary!).

But are there any crop circles with a green message, or any similar message which might be relevant in a practical political/lifestyle context?

..
The means and the medium may be part of the message itself

Just for the fun

Nah, they can't be that bored, do you think? There is certainly a teasing trickster aspect to that interpretation, but it just seems so pointless to me.

 

[Muadib]

we have no idea how many different kinds of intelligence might operate on and around earth and what sorts of messages they might want to communicate to us.

I guess if you're intent in finding a paranormal aspect to these circles then that would make sense. It just strikes me as odd that a higher intelligence with a supposed important message to convey to mankind would be worse at communicating than we are. I've heard a lot of theories for the circles and I don't pretend to know what your personal interpretation is, but what I get from most circle enthusiasts is kind of the same thing that you tend to get from some believers in UFO's, ie crop circles are here to convey a message or make us think. If that's the case, it just seems to me that there are so many more effective ways to go about it, ways that will get people's attention and actually lead to something positive. Instead, they seem content just to screw with us, it doesn't strikes me as the way an actual higher intelligence would attempt to communicate, it's ineffective at grabbing the vast majority of people's attention and the messages are never anything beyond what we already know.

I think your idea about whatever the intelligence that may have been behind this phenomenon at one time having moved on is an extremely interesting one. Perhaps that's why we seem to be continually spinning our wheels when it comes to these types of phenomenon and yet we seem to get nowhere. They start the trend and we perpetuate it, and by the time most people are aware of it the real phenomenon is long gone, leaving us frustrated and confused. I can't really see why the intelligence would want to communicate in such a hit and run fashion, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

This could get very heated so I'm asking all our very reasonable Paracast Forum members to keep things on the topic and arguments and away from the people making them. Please!

 

[mike]

What if there is an aspect to this thats skirting the rules?
In the same way a political graffiti artist doesnt add his name and home address to his/her message.

It may be that landing on the white house lawn or motherships over london and new york are simply not allowed.

OR

They may not be trying to communicate with us, just coax us down a path to a point when they can

It may not be a black and white issue, communication or not, zero or one, on/off.

Perhaps the process must by necessity include a prelude

PRELUDE 1 : an introductory performance, action, or event preceding and preparing for the principal or a more important matter

In that context it makes perfect sense for the message to be to a degree ephemeral and ambiguous.
It gives those who are not ready for such a reality a way out, and those who are subtle confirmation.
A quantum telegram, whose contents must be resolved by the individual observer

 

[Constance]

"Wade Ridsdale, post: 176362, member: 4766"]I Haven't listened to the episode yet, but I got to say this is some impassioned response. I am hoping you guys touched on the logistics that these circles must have involved. As one who does find it hard to comprehend that, given the various logistics and equipment needed and lighting...assuming that not all crop circles were done by the light of a full moon and/or flashlights, the time involved be it just a few people or if it was a group of people and the number of them over the years how is it that matt was the only one nabbed...

Excellent and important point you make. Most of the hundreds and hundreds of cc that have appeared in and around Wiltshire for the last 40+ years have done so within an astonishingly small geographical area. Re available light, the hoaxers say they work in total darkness (no cc made by the light of the full moon) to avoid discovery by either local police or the many researchers and croppies who have mounted all-night watches on the hills in the area overlooking fields in which crop circles appear year after year. And yes, those working conditions in the average 4.5 hours of darkness in southern England during the summer months, combined with the size and intricate detail seen up-close in many formations, led on-the-ground researchers to question the manmade hypothesis for many years.

I admit I pretty much fast forwarded through the Colin Andrews episode but if he claimed that he created a crop circle with his mind . . .

Colin must not have made himself very clear in that interview (I haven't listened to it yet). Elsewhere he refers to that event as his having appealed mentally (at a point of perplexity when the single circles were being complicated by the addition of geometrically placed satellite circles) to whatever was producing the crop circles to demonstrate its existence by producing a formation in the geometric form of a Celtic cross, and the next day he found that representation in the field outside his house. A number of individuals and groups have reported the appearance of crop circles matching a design they had 'asked for', appearing not weeks or months later but the next day. MW himself, in his current attempt to prop up the paranormal connection with/channel to cchoaxers themselves, related a number of similar anecdotes involving hoaxers in his Paracast interview.

you don't hear of many circles that are created in more remote hard to get to areas

Actually there have been and continue to be many such cases, often discovered in the Canadian wilderness and remote crop fields. (See ICCRA's website for research reports on those and on crop circles in the US, both historical and recent.)[/quote]

if someone wanted to communicate with us but only at altitude the skys the limit there are planes crisscrossing this globe everywhere so that things should be all over the place not just farmers fields

A number of cc have been discovered in wild grasses (the interesting one in Gray, Tennessee, in May of this year was an example; so were the two formations discovered in a very remote region of Australia a few years ago, researched by Greg Jefferys). The reed circles discovered in Australia during the 1960s and/or 70s effectively instituted the association of cc with ufos (which has been supported by physical trace research in the ufo field over decades and in many locations on the planet).

 

[Muadib]

What if there is an aspect to this thats skirting the rules?
In the same way a political graffiti artist doesnt add his name and home address to his/her message.

It may be that landing on the white house lawn or motherships over london and new york are simply not allowed.

OR

They may not be trying to communicate with us, just coax us down a path to a point when they can

It may not be a black and white issue, communication or not, zero or one, on/off.

Perhaps the process must by necessity include a prelude

Interesting idea, but who's making these rules? A higher intelligence that's even higher than the higher intelligence supposedly responsible for the crop circles? How far up does this thing go? It strikes me as a circular type of argument, perhaps I'm just too literal minded to see the nuance. Political graffiti is an interesting idea but how many political graffiti artists and enthusiasts do you actually know? I can't name a single artist and I don't know many people who are into graffiti, just like I don't know many people who are into crop circles. Again if they're trying to coax us down a path, it seems like there are better ways to go about it, because the way they're doing things now just clearly isn't working. We always end up in the same place, debating whether these things are real or not while the vast majority of society moves along as if nothing is happening. Why can't they do better? All it would take is one crop circle with information that was previously unknown and leads to something tangible and we'd be dealing with a totally different reaction from the vast majority of reasonable people.

 

[mike]

Interesting idea, but who's making these rules? A higher intelligence that's even higher than the higher intelligence supposedly responsible for the crop circles? How far up does this thing go? It strikes me as a circular type of argument, perhaps I'm just too literal minded to see the nuance. Political graffiti is an interesting idea but how many political graffiti artists and enthusiasts do you actually know? I can't name a single artist and I don't know many people who are into graffiti, just like I don't know many people who are into crop circles. Again if they're trying to coax us down a path, it seems like there are better ways to go about it, because the way they're doing things now just clearly isn't working. We always end up in the same place, debating whether these things are real or not while the vast majority of society moves along as if nothing is happening. Why can't they do better? All it would take is one crop circle with information that was previously unknown and leads to something tangible and we'd be dealing with a totally different reaction from the vast majority of reasonable people.

Well the obvious example that might be at play is the StarTrek prime directive rule.
A federation of ET's might decide (perhaps by learning from experience) that landing on the tribal leaders lawn always leads to disaster.
We know within our own experince when an advanced culture meets a less advanced one the less advanced one gets sublimated.

So there are social and moral reasons why either an individual ET species or a collective of species might formulate such rules
There are also practical ones, If they give us their FTL technology, then we need not develop our own. It may be better to encourage us to reach for the stars and see if we develop a new and novel way of doing so.
And then there is the time travel aspect, If what we see as linear time is in fact shortsighted, an artifact of being emersed in it, then it may be good policy not to directly interact with us while we are still in this state

If they are harvesting conciousness as ive expounded on in other threads, then they need only tweak the product itself, not deal directly with the biovessels that produce it.

The list goes on and on, but my point is we cant look at the nature of the alleged message itself and assume its form implys incompetence or lack of intellegence.

 

[Muadib]

It may be better to encourage us to reach for the stars and see if we develop a new and novel way of doing so.

I see what you're saying and while speculative, it's still very interesting, what in this whole morass isn't speculation anyway at this point? Still, again I just have to say, it seems to me that there are better ways to encourage us than the way they've gone about it, there are better ways to influence people and I think these could possibly be accomplished without violating the prime directive. For example, while not providing us with the formula for FTL flight, how about some unknown mathematical concepts that would gently lead us in that direction.

I guess that's one of my biggest beefs with this whole thing, if something supposedly paranormal presents us with nothing but things that we already know, it just seems much more likely that it came from human beings and not from any higher intelligence. It's the same beef I have with the majority of religious texts, nothing in them suggests outside influence and they contain no verifiable information that wasn't already known by mankind. I can't really see anything in the crop circle phenomenon that does either, but it's always possible that I'm missing something.

 

[mike]

And it seems perfectly logical to me that any contact scenario must include a prelude phase

PRELUDE 1 : an introductory performance, action, or event preceding and preparing for the principal or a more important matter

This is imo entirely consistant with many other aspects of the phenomena

 

[Constance]

I also thought it was a great interview, but I wouldn't have minded hearing more about two things:
1) His paranormal experiences, which I thought he glossed over. Now, if I had actually experienced weird stuff, like balls hovering over a field, it would not be something I'd just mention in passing. Is he serious about it?

BOLs (balls of light hovering, moving at speed, and giving indications of intentional activity) have been associated with crop circles in Wiltshire throughout the last four decades. They've been observed by researchers and croppies as well as by hoaxers. Many might be earthlights of the type observed at Hessdalen and other locations on the planet {'Golden Ball Hill' in Wiltshire is in the midst of the crop fields in which many cc have appeared and it's been called by that name since well before the apparent beginnings of the modern cc phenomenon}. Steve Alexander who has captured an enormous number of aerial photographs of cc over the last three decades has also filmed/videotaped BOLs moving at great speed over the crop fields, and over some crop circles. Light phenomena of other sorts (tubes of light, intense flashes of light) have been reported in association with crop circles in England and Holland and probably elsewhere). Re the earthlights explanation, Massimo Teodorani, a scientist who has done considerable research at Hessdalen, has identified some of the light spheres observed and scientifically measured there as not explicable as earthlights. Spherical lights (aka orbs) are increasingly observed and photographed near earth and also pacing (and even examining) aircraft in flight. Something is going on there.

And the other thing, to get to my point:
2) Why does he do it?

The thing is, in art, or 'artistic' hapenings, there is an intention. And the intention seperates the situationist (someone who intervenes in a situation, for instance the crop circle situation, on the sly) from the hooligan.

(EDIT: Here is an EXAMPLE of vandalism which is excuseable, I'm not comparing art and civil disobedience, as such): Likewise, civil disobedience may be apologized, in fact seen as beneficiary, if it can be made clear that the civil intervention was made on moral grounds, for a greater cause than seeking personal benefits. ..

So, here's the kicker, he kept doing crop circles in large part because the woo-woo crowd would not listen to reason, did not want to know the truth! If people had come to reason sooner, he wouldn't have any grounds to keep up the situationist comedy. And still, after numerous 'how-to' videos etc, many still choose to blame the messenger.

Yes, indeed, why does the hoaxing continue decade after decade, with a new PR program being wheeled out to identify the hoaxers as the special conduit of paranormal forces seeking expression? This makes no rational sense to me, sounds like obsessive behavior. Who cares if some people don't accept the 'all-manmade' claim? Why do these folks care?

I think this whole situation is a goldmine of material for an academic study on the paranormal scene, and I think there's much more to it than hooliganism. There's clearly a lot to learn.

Indeed.

 

[Muadib]

And it seems perfectly logical to me that any contact scenario must include a prelude phase



This is imo entirely consistant with many other aspects of the phenomena

Sure, but in that case, this is one hell of a long prelude as its been going on for multiple decades. I guess maybe for something that would so thoroughly shatter our current paradigms, such a period of preparation may be not only possible but necessary.

I just have to say, I hope I'm still around when they move to phase 2.

 

[Muadib]

. Steve Alexander who has captured an enormous number of aerial photographs of cc over the last three decades has also filmed/videotaped BOLs moving at great speed over the crop fields, and over some crop circles.

Are these videos available online and if so, can you link them here? The only video of that type I've seen was clearly CGI and was later claimed by an aspiring CGI artist, it was of balls of light hovering over a field and creating a crop circle.

 

[Muadib]

Ok I just have to say, I'm listening to the beginning of the interview now and this guy already strikes me as full of shit, you cannot get high from marijuana just sitting in the back of a car, no matter how strongly it smells, it has to be smoked or ingested for it to become active. Strike one and I'm barely over 15 minutes in.