Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[manxman]

aye buy a copy of the shooting times, its weekly, see how many times people out for a walk rough shooting, get a full armed response unit out too them, in the uk.

 

[trainedobserver]

I have seen and heard reports....Perhaps anecdotal, because I wasn't there to personally witness them...of military copters being reported surveying some formations. I don't think they would be there to keep tabs on a bunch of artists. Now if any of these circle makers intruded on or near military land or if the military was in a high stage of Alert "we are dealing with eco-terroists" then that would be a different matter.

The "why does the government seem interested in crop circles" is a separate question from "how they are made" and we shouldn't confuse the two. I think it is safe to assume that MI6 or whoever figured it out long ago. The tools at their disposal certainly exceed buzzing circles with helicopters. Why they would maintain an interest might have to do with the intelligence community's interest in the UFO subculture. Spies, lies, and counterintelligence concerning subjects that have nothing to do with UFOs, the circles themselves, or the paranormal in any form.

 

[Wade]

aye buy a copy of the shooting times, its weekly, see how many times people out for a walk rough shooting, get a full armed response unit out too them, in the uk.

Not to derail, but as far as this type response, is it military or police (or both) that are responsible for this ? Do you guys have any organization like the oathkeepers in the u.k. ?

 

[manxman]

im not in the UK wade, it doesnt happen here, google my name, but it does across the water regular, police, helicopter, the whole works.

 

[Wade]

im not in the UK wade, it doesnt happen here, google my name, but it does across the water regular, police, helicopter, the whole works.

Gotcha, I see where you're coming from.

 

[BlackDogGrimm]

I'm coming late to (after?) the party and sadly haven't the time to read through the entire thread. (Yet.)

I love this topic, and I'd love to "believe" that there are some that are not man-made.

I also have to laugh at myself and shake my head when a researcher/cc maker comes on the air and admits to having made several of the circles, and of finding more people who may only have made one or two circles themselves, etc. When the evidence of some or even the majority of cc's being man-made is right in front of us -- why would we deny that? I admit to finding it kind of hilarious, and admire the circle makers' trickster nature & ingenuity to a certain extent even though what they are doing is illegal, trespassing, potentially upsetting, etc.

I can really only say that there is one thing I know for sure, and that is: I don't know. This topic, like most (if not all) others in the paranormal field, appears to be multi-faceted, and capable of holding multiple truths that aren't likely to be well-served through black and white thinking. Science doesn't have all the answers -- any reputable, well-trained scientist will tell you that their job is not to find answers, but to test a hypothesis. To dismiss or stubbornly adhere to any kind of spiritual/mental/psychological aspect of a situation is equally unhelpful. It's possible for them to co-exist, but only if we're willing to take a detached view of both.

The next question to ask about man-made crop circles and their makers seems to be about the entire field of consciousness. The very idea that a circle maker could be at home going about their business and suddenly feel compelled to trespass on a farmer's field to create a complex design in the middle of the night -- only to find out later that it was the pattern being meditated on by an individual or group -- is pretty earth-shattering. Why not look more in depth at that?

 

[enzo]

It is not surprising to me that the 'paranormal' is involved with the crop makers art. I have paranormal experiences every day. My wife thinks I live 12 hours into the future as things we talk about out of the blue soon arrive on the 'normal' mundane plane of existence. If you buy a new car, you will see them everywhere. If you start a new hobby, the right books and teachers and helpers will appear out of thin air. You don't have to visit a haunted house or buy an ouija board to experience some weirdness. If you really watch closely, you will find that you are surrounded by and live in the paranormal all the time. Indeed, you will see that you are conjuring your own reality every day.

 

[ViperPilot]

Random blow down events are more intriguing to me than man-made glyphs in fields.
One thing that both Andrews and Williams agreed on was that the simpler the formation, the higher the probability it could be high-strange.
Here are some examples...

These were attributed to purely natural causes? They're truly amazing!

 

[Matthew Williams]

I thought it was interesting that he thought that part of the reason Matt lost his job had to do with his interest in UFOs. It would be great to get some confirmation of his suspicion.

On his 1991 UFO sighting in South Whales. A seemingly strange orange triangular light seen for a very short period of time at night at some distance "sitting upright on the side of a hill" at the location of a cairn mound doesn't qualify as a UFO sighting. For all we know, there were some people camped out up there, and what he was looking at was the glow through the translucent sides of an orange tent lit from the inside by lanterns. Imagine something like the triangular side of this tent seen from far away up on a hill at night:

​

How does that explain why it was suddenly gone after he stopped the car and went back to double check it? The answer is simple. All the tent's residents had to do was get a little paranoid at a car stopping down below to check them out and turn off the light in the tent. This fits the description so well that based on the information in the interview, it's reasonable to suggest that the report was probably caused by a misidentification of a known object.

​

Its South Wales btw... but no problem. Its part of England - which is a subsection of Scotland ;-)

Actually the light was very intense and at that distance didnt resemble any form of tent or fire. It was so large that it would have been the mother of all tents. I would have estimated it to be a few hundred feet high. I class it as a UFO type of wierd experience and correctly you point out it isnt a UFO as it was sat on the side of the mountain.

I think the amount of shimmering of light coming off this object and the distance would mean they were using a torch inside the tent so bright that it would have incinerated the tent...

Although this is one of many unusual events I have had in my life - it was one of the first to trigger my interest in the subjects of the paranormal so as to become an investigator as opposed to a casual reader of books etc.

 

[Matthew Williams]

I was wondering that too. I wonder if the camera was on auto white balance or something.

Its probably due to chroma smear and degradation due to being copied. Pal video is awful when you try to dub it.

 

[Matthew Williams]

Heres the thing, people try and force an explanation, its either real or a hoax 1 or zero.
If its real, then again we try and force it into a box, why would aliens come all this way and then communicate via pictures in crops.

I'll deal with the pictogram aspect first.

The oldest known cave paintings date back 40,000 years with some conjecture they may even have been done by neanderthals

Heres something to add to the mix. Has anyone seen documentaries on shamanic drug taking and art. The use of psychedelic drugs works on a few different levels of conciousness. At low doses during a trip one will see archetypal images based on ones usual surroundings. This means a person from New York may trip visuals of buildings etc and an African tribesman may trip and see Gazelles.

However when you trip with a lot more drugs you enter a visual state where it is reported that the symbology seen is universal and does not matter where you come from. We all se the same symbols. So we are hard wired to certain shapes and forms. Guess what they just happen to look like... crop circle glyphs.

This is why on some cave paintings you have for example a man holding a spear, some dogs, some buffalo and some shapes. Its usually the shapes which throw people who look for explanations. Perhaps we forget that ancient man was influenced by drugs very much as a lifestyle choice as much as a spiritual and hunting tool. I wonder if the crop designs speak to a subconcious inner part of ourselves.

http://www.desertusa.com/mag07/jan/images12_07/rock7.jpg
http://w0sd.com/mexico5/P3203813.JPG

 

[Matthew Williams]

I have been reading your spin on how the 'evil greedy' farmers have polluted the soil and have given you hay fever. I had to pipe in. Give us all a break, okay? My take on what you do is hooliganism, pure and simple. Sorry Mr. Williams, but the system we live in is based on people owning property. If you don't like it, get a meaningful job and purchase some land of your own. From what you said on the webcast, it is always the other person who is the bad guy, never yourself. It's Whitley Streiber, the farmers, those crop circle people who write books and print calendars on your hard work. Funny how you never take any blame onto yourself. Maybe it is time to grow up and take some responsibility for your actions and quit blaming others.

You make fair points. However I have been a circlemaker and experienced weird stuff and as a researcher first and foremost wanted to share this with others. When I became exposed as a circlemaker I stopped damaging farmers and went on to try to inform people about the paranormal stuff instead. I will still say I justify peoples right to their bit of land because it isn't all about who owns stuff and who is a peasant who must be ordered around by those who own everything.

I do think I have taken responsibility by owning up to being a maker when the Whitley thing went AWOL and the police turned up at my house. Seems as if the magistrate sided with me though as what circlemakers do is very good for local business.

 

[Randall]

Its South Wales btw... but no problem. Its part of England - which is a subsection of Scotland ;-)

Oops .. Whales and Wales are quite different aren't they.

Actually the light was very intense and at that distance didnt resemble any form of tent or fire. It was so large that it would have been the mother of all tents. I would have estimated it to be a few hundred feet high. I class it as a UFO type of wierd experience and correctly you point out it isnt a UFO as it was sat on the side of the mountain. I think the amount of shimmering of light coming off this object and the distance would mean they were using a torch inside the tent so bright that it would have incinerated the tent ... Although this is one of many unusual events I have had in my life - it was one of the first to trigger my interest in the subjects of the paranormal so as to become an investigator as opposed to a casual reader of books etc.

Although I suppose it's still possible for it to have been something manmade, that clarification does add a an air of mystery to the incident, that's for sure. Thanks for adding those details .

 

[Matthew Williams]

For me the big aha moment was hearing Matthew explain the plant anomalies sequence and the mysterious, genetically altered node mutations. It took me back 15 years to previous debates about the supposed xtraterrestrial agency responsible for these anomalies. BLT hung their hat on this scienctific upchucking the way Leir claims similar orgies of "science" over the alien implant mythology. This thread's range of belief systems is a wonderful spectrum of what the paranormal is all about from believer to curiosity seeker to skep-dick.

And speaking about @Muadib, my fellow enthusiast, I like the way you had no dog in the fight but persisted to cheer for the critical vantage point - a good place to truly see crop circles for what they are: human constructions engaged in commentary about ccbelievers. You could easily academicize this position the way @Jimi H. accurately did with the big smooth strokes of his electrified tune. Artists never really get to define themselves - that's the job of the critic/historian.

I think this was a pretty astute comment, as was trainedobserver's later comment:

I would really like to hear @Matthew Williams respond to these points as Matthew speaks well of Colin, but identifies trying to make points to other ccresearchers is like walking through treacle. So do you, Matthew, take any responsibility for the cult like experiences and altering of human personalities that have resulted from your late night field graffiti? Forget the researchers deaf to your grainy taunts - what about all the believers you have helped spawn?

But back to the aha moment: if the ccphenomnon, including all the BLT legitimization of cc as genuine xtraterrestrial artifacts, is totally bogus, then how many other paranormal pursuits are based on out of context woodcuts, or begin in layers of myths (stories invented to explain wild phenomenon that we now know to be prosaic events) and today are relaquered by the researchers' claims, who in their garbles, give the people, as M. Williams says, exactly what they want?

And then does that make The Paracast just another Waystation where we are all sitting around the digital glow together in the cave, speculating on the value of pictographs while chewing on that finger hash (dangerous stuff - best to stay away)? The 16 different ccpuns that cropped up in this episode suggests a kind of repetition. But then anything circular is bound to provide the odd synchronicity here and there.

Re the have I helped spawn believers... Yes certainly as the work of humans out in the fields is interpreted by many as impossible for humans to create. So by the very nature of human belief, wanting to believe and an apparent looking the other way for explainations which may dissuade ones belief, people choosing mostly the former then flock to circles looking for answers. The point is that circlemakers dont decide what people will believe or what they experience, people decide that all by themselves. If they see a UFO on their trip to circle land, that isnt our UFO as we havent developed well enough to levitate whilst emitting light yet... Althiough I have played with balloons to see what people would think. I once sent one up with a strobe light in it. Linda Moulton Howe wrote it up in her book as the best UFO she had ever seen. All it was, was a few balloons tied together with a strobe light set to fast flash rate in the centre of the bunch. It just goes to show what happens when you set out to meddle in these ways. However peoples experiences are usually nothing to do with circlemakers, they are generated or experienced by people all on their own, perhaps helped by a little opening of ones mind by the circles and energies which may be present in some form. Circlemakers are not responsible for these energies- because we dont know what we are doing - but much like dowsing - if it feels right and its detectable perhaps you hit the mark.

So if one then asks do I do it for a cult like status. Certainly not. If you see the abrasive way I try to come across on my videos I do it for a reason... because I **do not** want people to follow me like that. I figure that showing myself in a semi-foolish light will keep the cult like followers at bay and keep things sensible. It seems to work out for me and gives me license to act the fool - which I do like.

I do think people take things far too seriously when it comes to the paranormal and extra terrestrials. I have seen a side range of people when investigating over the years and I realise that people use these experiences as a way to intensify their own lives. I reached a point where I had make so many circles and had so many weird experiences that it seemed to me like being involved in that much oddity and paranormality and not getting paid had only one benefit - proving to me that s**t happens. I am very comfortable now with that concept and try to tell others to experience it also and to try and do it in a happy and playful way and not in a sombre and serious way. I think this approach is what circlemaking should be about. Some circlemaker teams are far too ordered in the way they work... and stomping and no chatting, no time to rest etc etc... Now that to me is boring. Circlemaking should be about trying to connect with the paranormal and also make something with attunement to a nice vibration which is only possible if the team members are in a happy focused state and all good friends. If you work too hard all you end up is having a tired vibe energy in the circle you are trying to make. So keep positive, keep happy, make it a social experience not just an art endeavour.

I never got around to saying that I always do an oration in each circle we make and dedicate the circle to love and peace and ask for guidance from any universal intelligences out there to make the circle something which is good for people to visit. Some people may see that a a cult or religious type behaviour but I don't pertain to know what it is we are actually doing so we as circlemakers for we are simply unconscious channels for whatever is out there. I do believe like any cult if people start to get big heads and start to try and declare the magic of the circles as their own this will have negative results. I am a believer in Karma. I take examples from what happens to Contactee cults where its all centred around a main figure and that figure tries to get money and power from followers and promises great things which all turn out to be a total crock. I even think the ETs may lead those ego-headed cult leaders on to leave them stranded with no UFO sightings on the given channelled dates and locations etc. This is all proof that if you do not act with humility towards what you try to achieve within spirituality or the paranormal you will end up burned out or "shat on" by our unknown ethereal friends. (thats a technical term btw)

So you will see with most circlemakers - they are anonymous so cannot be accused of ego or power trips. They dont earn money out of making circles so are quite humble. Yes they do enjoy seeing what others make of their work. Most are respectful of the power of the circles so their own messages would tend to be benign symbols or even math representations which is a form of universal language all of its own. I think that is very humble. I have seen negative stuff to those who are not humble, myself included - so I learned my lesson.

Yes its criminal... and some people would say misleading but I would argue to mislead someone to a nice wheatfield so they can have a positive and sometimes paranormal experience is criminal not to do!

 

[Matthew Williams]

when you are hearing the counter information directly from the horses mouth... me.

some would say it just looks like a horse, when really it's an ass.

just avin a laugh matty lad, you never answered before about that vid posted a couple of pages back.

Just an aside - stop staring at Asses - unless they are on people.

 

[Matthew Williams]

Julian Richardson has moved onto sand...

Cheers Chris

another one you may all like which I filmed.. Might be best to click on youtube bit and watch at 1080p as in this little window it might hurt your eyes.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

aye buy a copy of the shooting times, its weekly, see how many times people out for a walk rough shooting, get a full armed response unit out too them, in the uk.

Quite a few people have been shot here by armed response units for things like carrying a table leg in a plastic bag and other ridiculous decisions, made, admittedly, in the heat of a situation.

Actually though, the statistics for Police shootings in the UK are staggeringly good. Recently, in one 12-month period, the combined number of rounds actually discharged in the whole of England & Wales during 19,000 incidents involving armed police was something like 5. Thats 5 shots fired out of 19,000 separate armed response unit call-outs. I don't think the shots fired killed anyone either!
I have to admit, those kind of statistics do prove it's not the wild west here anyway.

 

[manxman]

These were attributed to purely natural causes? They're truly amazing!

yes thats wind blown barley, and i have decoyed crow/pigeon over just that 100s of times, see how the weight of the seed head makes it hang, thats why it swirls, and goes down, you wont see wheat go down flat like that, it is a sturdier plant, and the seed head stays bolt-upright, i will bet the house - keeping money that matt prefered to work with wheat.

 

[manxman]

Quite a few people have been shot here by armed response units for things like carrying a table leg in a plastic bag and other ridiculous decisions, made, admittedly, in the heat of a situation.

Actually though, the statistics for Police shootings in the UK are staggeringly good. Recently, in one 12-month period, the combined number of rounds actually discharged in the whole of England & Wales during 19,000 incidents involving armed police was something like 5. Thats 5 shots fired out of 19,000 separate armed response unit call-outs. I don't think the shots fired killed anyone either!
I have to admit, those kind of statistics do prove it's not the wild west here anyway.

it is not about shooting people, its about intimidation en-masse, the police quite simply do not want firearms in public ownership.
hence the increasing legal obstacles, ever increasing police objections and fees, it all started 25 years ago and has steadily gotten tighter and tighter, like i said i lost mine for drinking and driving, i know it was dumb, but there ya go, only excuse they needed to confiscate my guns and not to be forgetting i represented the island at english skeet many a time..

 

[Goggs Mackay]

it is not about shooting people, its about intimidation en-masse, the police quite simply do not want firearms in public ownership.
hence the increasing legal obstacles, ever increasing police objections and fees, it all started 25 years ago and has steadily gotten tighter and tighter, like i said i lost mine for drinking and driving, i know it was dumb, but there ya go, only excuse they needed to confiscate my guns and not to be forgetting i represented the island at english skeet many a time..

I agree. Yes we had Hungerford and Dunblane but I think we went way too far in a knee-jerk response to admittedly very traumatic events. I don't think anyone in the UK needs a handgun at home but I think we should be able to use them on licensed ranges. There are many topics that come under the nanny state I dislike.
Although I do consume alcohol, your own experience illustrates that it is probably the single biggest cause of lots of bad things happening, not hard drugs or violent movies. To be honest I'd rather have drugs legal and alcohol banned, cos the older I get the more sad I am at how pathetic we Brits are at responsibly drinking. So many of us just should stay away from the stuff cos it really is the old 'instant asshole - just add alcohol' thing going on.