Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[manxman]

once you flatten a crop, it starts to die, and dry out and wither very quickly, the seeds are immature, and i doubt any would germinate.
The nodes popping happens in all barley stems as it contract's, and dries out, thats my personal experience with oats barley and wheat.

 

[Burnt State]

Burnt State wrote: "The basic points of this paper hold little in the way of any scientific legitimacy as we know that the claimed plant anomalies are not anomalous but natural."

I think you're talking about surface signs (extended apical nodes and blown nodes) which are, in fact, not visible in many known-manmade crop circles. The more significant anomalies Vigoda discusses (none yet explained) occur deep inside the plants in their cellular walls visible only through electron scanning microscopy; in the changes in cc seeds and the dramatic differences in growth rate and vitality of plants grown from those seeds; and in mineralogical evidence (anomalous mineral crystallization in some crop circle soils; the presence of magnetized iron particles found in many formations {notably thicker at the center and thinning out toward the perimeter}; and the presence of iron spherules similar to those found at the sites of cattle mutilations.

Constance, your name is well suited. Your patience with most everyone's disbelief, scoffing and dismay is really something to witness. You have stuck to this thread, unabashed and persistent and very gracious with all us skeptical folk. However, those bits of science that you refer to have not proven much for me as when i first explored those same points over a decade ago with i'm not sure which blt representative or supporter i was not satisfied that any real science had taken place. At the time the iron spherules you mention i had not heard of, especially not with regards to cattle mutilation, but i'm very convinced that those are also human in origin. The discussion around other mineralogical evidence would require some very extensive sampling of more than just circle soil, as would the magnetized particles to defeat any naturally occurring event and we all know how tainted some of the proclamations in that area have been.

But of greater concern is how each piece of supposed evidence that is thrown up, be it video or a crop circle picture all appear to be grasping at threads, vain hope etc. and this strategy, along with the tone of the article needs to be looked at from a more pragmatic perspective. Say there were real anomalies taking place, and there was really something unique taking place do you not think that there would be a lot more action delving directly into the phenomenon from all manner of sources as opposed to what you have at its core: circlemakers vs. circle researchers & believers. The acts of repetition involved between these two bodies is what really needs to be studied as they have invented their own religious exchange both in deed and reporting. Their relationship is the only paranormal thing i see at work here.

 

[Constance]

I'm no expert cereologist, but I've looked at videos where some of the claims you mention are made, and I'm not convinced that they are necessarily of any special significance. Before we can be sure that the crop circle makers are responsible for any of the reported effects, we would need to have set a baseline by taking a sample of the same plant immediately before the circle event for comparison, otherwise seemingly anomalous cellular observations may have been there before the event, in which case the crop circle has nothing to do with it. Same goes for the other trace evidence. Mineral crystallization and magnetic iron filings aren't something that can't be attributed to human involvement. All that being said, there is something odd about the phenomenon as a whole. I tend to lean in favor of disinformation as the root cause, resulting in copycats and commercialization, while the real thing ( if there is such a thing ) is actually the non-reported boring saucer nest or burn circle over the hill that they don't want people looking into.

Crop circle researchers would be delighted to see the local ccmakers cooperate in the experiments you suggest. I'll suggest them to Charles Mallett as a proposal he might want to propose on his crop circle website.

Re the soil crystallization, it's already been established that several thousand years beneath heavy layers of rock are required to produce the type of crystallization discovered by Levengood in some crop circle soils (indeed in the top layer of the soil).

Re Matt's riff on 'iron filings', I was just about to quote and comment on it:

mike said: ↑
So Matthew whats your take on the reports of equipment malfunction sometimes reported

I forgot to mention re magnets and compasses etc. Someone did spread iron filings in one circle. This was found by researchers who sent it off to levengood because it had "magnetic" properties. Iron filing being magnetic... go figure. Anyhow Levengood managed to say that this was meteroric dust which by its blah blah give me some more money for my research factor was tested to be from another star system... yes indeed simple iron filings could be from other star systems. This chap really could reel it out.

You've got most of that wrong, Matt, especially concerning Levengood. You're referring to the CCmaker-trickster Rob Irving's iron filings hoax, followed by extensive written exchanges between Levengood/Burke and a chemistry teacher employed by Irving to defend his claims (notably involving a retraction and rewrite by chemistry teacher in midstream). Also involving an article in the Journal of Scientific Exploration rehearsing this episode as I recall.

I've also been meaning to get back to your gross misrepresentation earlier in the thread of the history of Levengood's papers in Physiologica Plantarum. I don't think you intentionally re-wrote that history; I think you just don't know the history and are talking on the basis of misrepresentations of it that you read long ago in some crop circle forum. Suffice it to say that Physiologica Plantarum did not later withdraw the two L papers that the journal had published in 1995 and 1999, and indeed refused to publish Grassi's attempted refutation of L's research when Grassi offered it to them in 2001. Had they wanted to distance themselves in some way from the decision to publish the two L papers, they would likely have taken the opportunity to publish Grassi's critique of them, but they didn't. The fact is that Grassi argued with L on an issue of methodology in his paper. Grassi did not refute Levengood's research {note that to do so would require extensive replication of L's research with resulting falsification of it based on obtaining different results}. Also, your statement that the scientists involved in the journal's editorial board 'will freely discuss with anyone' their rejection of L's research is a wild imagining. What happened was that the journal's managing editor (who's job is to receive submitted manuscripts, pass them along to the editorial board for initial evaluation, send them out to expert readers for formal review, and correspond with authors concerning the board's decision to publish or not to publish their papers) corresponded with Grassi about how much he himself enjoyed Grassi's attack on L and on the crop circle subject in general, and Grassi published those remarks to the Italian skeptics organization of which he was president). I'm not sure whether that managing editor still has his job after the embarrassment he caused the journal. I do doubt that he was himself a scientist. One thing I've learned for sure about Wiltshire from this and similar episodes is the extent to which local ccmakers there rely on gossip rather than facts in their often slanderous claims about researchers.

 

[flipper]

I was struck by one attitude on the part of Matthew Williams. He believes that the cost to the farmer is not his responsibility. Perhaps he would change is mind if he talked to the farmer about how much it cost the farmer and the mental strain that was caused by the traversing of the farmers land.It seemed it did not matter to Mr Williams. It was for the greater good. The end justifying the means. Mr Mathews might feel different when a group of people trampled his work on his work desk. He could give the farmer at least some money, if not before making the circle then afterward.

 

[trainedobserver]

And I continue to wonder why this effort is being made.

I think you answered your own question, "To maintain interest in the crop circles in Wiltshire."

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I was struck by one attitude on the part of Matthew Williams. He believes that the cost to the farmer is not his responsibility. Perhaps he would change is mind if he talked to the farmer about how much it cost the farmer and the mental strain that was caused by the traversing of the farmers land.It seemed it did not matter to Mr Williams. It was for the greater good. The end justifying the means. Mr Mathews might feel different when a group of people trampled his work on his work desk. He could give the farmer at least some money, if not before making the circle then afterward.

Having not spent major time on this subject and only listening to two interviews of him and Colin's, all I came away with was game playing and attention seeking. Mr. Williams states at the beginning of his interview that he became a believer in UFO's when he had his own personal sighting and then proceeds to take all the steps possible in muddying the waters of the subject. He states that he wanted to prove that cc's were man-made and then makes a hobby out of it. On every point, farmers, researchers, police , it was always their fault, Mr. Williams was the victim. The only laugh I had was when the police returned his computer to him in pieces, kinda like how he returned a crop after a night's work! To me, he's equal to those Third phase of the moon guys that put out fake video's of ufos knowing their fake. I'm disappointed that Nick Redfern is a friend of his. Really makes me wonder what's legit.

 

[Constance]

Constance, your name is well suited. Your patience with most everyone's disbelief, scoffing and dismay is really something to witness. You have stuck to this thread, unabashed and persistent and very gracious with all us skeptical folk.

Thanks, Burnt State. Even I am sometimes impressed with my patience , but it's long learned from debating these issues with grievously overbearing and merciless members of CCmakers.org in the Crop Circle Connector forum (now defunct). Also, those people operated in a pack, which I characterized as a full court press. It's downright civilized here, and I'm enjoying it.

However, those bits of science that you refer to have not proven much for me as when i first explored those same points over a decade ago with i'm not sure which blt representative or supporter i was not satisfied that any real science had taken place. At the time the iron spherules you mention i had not heard of, especially not with regards to cattle mutilation, but i'm very convinced that those are also human in origin. The discussion around other mineralogical evidence would require some very extensive sampling of more than just circle soil, as would the magnetized particles to defeat any naturally occurring event and we all know how tainted some of the proclamations in that area have been.

If you're interested and have not yet read them, I could link you to Levengood's paper on the clay crystallization paper in JSE and the summary of the Rockefeller-funded research involving other scientists in that inquiry. I've long been sympathetic to Levengood because of the extent and viciousness of the ridicule campaign conducted against him in Wiltshire and the lack there of an effort by any of the critics to read his papers and attempt to understand why his research evolved in the directions it did. I've read the descriptive bibliography of his 50 published papers, have read some of them in their entirety, and have recognized that his second Master's Degree, in Biophysics, indicated a curious mind pursuing challenging subjects and a consequent early interest in interdisciplinary science, which has proved to be the necessary path toward understanding the complexity of nature. I don't know why he didn't stay at Michigan to complete a dissertation after his doctoral work there, but I suspect he might have had a problem with his diss. director or a member of his committee (I've seen that kind of thing happen). I've also admired his ability to just continue on with his work rather than getting embroiled in defending himself against the attempts to undermine his reputation.

Say there were real anomalies taking place, and there was really something unique taking place do you not think that there would be a lot more action delving directly into the phenomenon from all manner of sources as opposed to what you have at its core: circlemakers vs. circle researchers & believers.

It's possible that military- or government-sponsored research into crop circle anomalies might have been and still be carried on in the UK, but the widespread ridicule of crop circles since the Doug and Dave announcement has made it very difficult, perhaps impossible, for academic scientists to obtain funding for cc research. Levengood's biophysical hypothesis, locating the origin of crop circle energies in interacting fields and phenomena in the ionosphere and their interaction with EM fields near earth, might have played a role in explorations by plasma physicists and others, but I doubt that they'd identify crop circle anomalies as the inspiration for their research.

The acts of repetition involved between these two bodies is what really needs to be studied as they have invented their own religious exchange both in deed and reporting. Their relationship is the only paranormal thing i see at work here.

I'm still intrigued by the several dozen reported incidents of crop circles forming in front of people (the accounts of those who were very nearby are pretty amazing). I'm not convinced that there is what I'd call a 'paranormal' connection in crop circles, but there certainly seems to be something anomalous involved physically. The remoteness of some discovered crop circles also intrigues me and leads me to doubt the allmanmade claim. By now the whole thing for me is like any mystery you become entangled in: one wants to learn the answer. I've never had 'religious' feelings about crop circles; mainly aesthetic and somewhat spiritual ones and a sense that geometry and quantum entanglement are at the core of all that happens in nature. I don't know any researchers whose ideas about cc I'd call religious, btw..

 

[Constance]

I think you answered your own question, "To maintain interest in the crop circles in Wiltshire."

But why do that? Why not move on and do something different with the rest of one's life?

 

[Constance]

once you flatten a crop, it starts to die, and dry out and wither very quickly, the seeds are immature, and i doubt any would germinate.
The nodes popping happens in all barley stems as it contract's, and dries out, thats my personal experience with oats barley and wheat.

It depends on the maturity of the plants at the time the crop circle is produced. Levengood found that young cc plants had dessicated seeds and that seeds of plants that were mature at the time of the formation were larger and more fertile, generating new plants with markedly increased vigor and growth.

 

[DaveM]

Having not spent major time on this subject and only listening to two interviews of him and Colin's, all I came away with was game playing and attention seeking. Mr. Williams states at the beginning of his interview that he became a believer in UFO's when he had his own personal sighting and then proceeds to take all the steps possible in muddying the waters of the subject. He states that he wanted to prove that cc's were man-made and then makes a hobby out of it. On every point, farmers, researchers, police , it was always their fault, Mr. Williams was the victim. The only laugh I had was when the police returned his computer to him in pieces, kinda like how he returned a crop after a night's work! To me, he's equal to those Third phase of the moon guys that put out fake video's of ufos knowing their fake. I'm disappointed that Nick Redfern is a friend of his. Really makes me wonder what's legit.

I liken Mr. Williams attitude to this. Let's say I drove my pickup truck onto your property and did a series of spins on your grass. As you came running out of your house and started to yell at me I calmly reply that you should have some understanding... it was all for my art!

 

[DaveM]

But why do that? Why not move on and do something different with the rest of one's life?

It's what hooligans do, Constance. There is no moving on. It's a few beers at the pub and then onto the farmer's property to destroy some crops.

 

[manxman]

It depends on the maturity of the plants at the time the crop circle is produced. Levengood found that young cc plants had dessicated seeds and that seeds of plants that were mature at the time of the formation were larger and more fertile, generating new plants with markedly increased vigor and growth.

constance he was talking shyte, think about it, why would anyone make a circle in a field of standing grain, thats a week or 2 from combining, you do realise that the combining of a grain crop depends on moisture content in the seedhead, dont you, thats why circle makers choose spring sown barley and wheat, mainly wheat, because a circle made in july, will not be cut until september.
yoy make a circle in winter sown barley in july, too watch it combined last week july first week august depending on the weather [moisture content] or contractor, contracted to cut that week regardless.

 

[Constance]

Well, manxman, it could be me that's talking shyte. It's a long time since I've read Levengood's seed studies and I have only a general idea left that some crop circles in young plants are associated with dessicated seeds (sometimes whole seed heads being dessicated), and that later on in the growing period seeds from certain crop circles turn up larger than average and generate more vigorous plants. I wouldn't want to argue with your encyclopedic knowledge of the crop fields and whether local ccmakers would set down a formation close to harvest time, but as I recall crop circles have indeed appeared in late August, year after year {maybe made by nonlocals?}.

 

[manxman]

Well, manxman, it could be me that's talking shyte. It's a long time since I've read Levengood's seed studies and I have only a general idea left that some crop circles in young plants are associated with dessicated seeds (sometimes whole seed heads being dessicated), and that later on in the growing period seeds from certain crop circles turn up larger than average and generate more vigorous plants. I wouldn't want to argue with your encyclopedic knowledge of the crop fields and whether local ccmakers would set down a formation close to harvest time, but as I recall crop circles have indeed appeared in late August, year after year {maybe made by nonlocals?}.

i know because i spent my teenage years hand hauling bales [straw] for pocket money for my uncles, when they were square [ the bales not my uncles ], and decoying/crop protection, for the next 20 years, right up to 14 years ago, until i got nicked for drink driving, and they then refused to renew my firearms certificate because of it, its why ive had a 9 year break between labradores.

constance i am not getting at you, it just doesnt make sense for an experienced team to make circles in combinable crop, it would be a case of now you see it, now you dont, and seed crops on hillsides rippen/mature quicker than low land crop, due to limited rain in summer plus drainage of the slope, means a shorter stem, as growth goes into the reproduction end [seed], and the CC makers do like their hillside locations, honestly a dry spring will mean a barley crop no more than a foot high..

The most valuable seed is next years sowing seed, near zero moister content and weight makes that primo, milling wheat/grain includes everything from piss wet thru to bone dry, and the price reflects how much treatment it needs before storing and processing, in truth alot will get rolled and used as feed for live-stock as drying costs for a poor yield just aint worth it..or atleast then it wasnt worth it [30yrs ago].

back when i was in my 20s the ratio to achieve was around 2.5 ton to 1 ton sown, to make it worthwhile, be better now i would think, combines were pretty wasteful then, and now there are more productive varieties, so to give an idea of what .5 [half]of a ton of standing barley covers, is about the size of a penalty box goalmouth on a football field, and seed grain was £120 a ton.

So a decent sized circle, probably cost's the farmer now £200/£300 in lost grain.

 

[flipper]

Reading this debate gives me the same feeling that I get when I watch most movies. We are tricked into believing that people are dead and it turns out they are not dead. Things happen in the movie that later are shown not to have happen in the same way. Here we have Colin Andrews et al as duped believers, and Mathew Williams as a disinformation agent. They both agree that something besides normal is happening to make crop circles. Who ever is writing and this directing this movie is tricking all of us.
Christopher O’Brien / interview | hidden experience audio

 

[Wade]

Good Post Flipper, although I would sooner think that the trickster in this case is still man.
Evidence ? I have none, Agenda ? I cannot say, if one even exists at all, but I'd sooner argue that crop circles are signals by us to tell ET that "hey, we're not ALL about war and hate and oppression" we have an imaginitive, creative, compassionate side as well"

the only blowback is the mutual bemused belittlement you see from some on both sides of the phenomenon.

 

[manxman]

Is it worth any time looking into it, is there any substance at all in paranormal activity claims, i have stared at clear diamond studded summer skies many times, been in rivers upto my waist on autumn salmon, and run a pair lurchers till they aint got a run left in them all winter, all under the stars,for many years all-in, enjoyed every minute of it thinking back, but i aint ever seen nowt in the least paranormal, ive bricked-it a time or 2, when taken by surprise by animals, but nowt paranormalish.

 

[trainedobserver]

But why do that? Why not move on and do something different with the rest of one's life?

Well, its not like its a 9 to 5 day job or something.

I think many have moved on which may account for the poorer quality circles being produced. The way this seems to work is that people become interested in circles, find out they are being made by people and they start making them. After a while I think these makers get replaced by others as boredom and other things take their interest.

 

[Constance]

Well, its not like its a 9 to 5 day job or something.

I think many have moved on which may account for the poorer quality circles being produced. The way this seems to work is that people become interested in circles, find out they are being made by people and they start making them. After a while I think these makers get replaced by others as boredom and other things take their interest.

I think that's all true, trained observer, for many people who have made crop circles. I was referring to those who have become spokespersons and opinion leaders in Wiltshire, who spend a great deal of time continuing the core argument about the origin of crop circles on their websites, facebook pages, and forums. A lot of energy in poured into this, which amounts to an ideological battle with no end in sight..

 

[flipper]

Good Post Flipper, although I would sooner think that the trickster in this case is still man.
Evidence ? I have none, Agenda ? I cannot say, if one even exists at all, but I'd sooner argue that crop circles are signals by us to tell ET that "hey, we're not ALL about war and hate and oppression" we have an imaginitive, creative, compassionate side as well"

the only blowback is the mutual bemused belittlement you see from some on both sides of the phenomenon.

I agree. This is all we can do is go with what we think make sense. The human spirit is about imagination, creativity and compassion. It cannot be kept down.