Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[Jimi H.]

Right now you are being deliberately obtuse (at least i hope so)

What part of the following did you not comprehend ?..

It looked to me like challenge, that you'd like bet 20K that he couldn't reproduce a circle. So I was scratching my head, because I have no doubt that humans are capable of making cc's.

 

[mike]

I fear that it opens the door to a fundamentally inhumane treatment of humans.

Well we havent done a great job as it is have we. Just look at how inhumane we treat each other and the other bioforms here right now.
Will the substrate we sit on make a difference........ perhaps it might

Synthetic intellect wont need to eat the flesh of animals, or otherwise treat them in an inhumane manner.
Killing each other will be pointless impossible since our core essence will be in the cloud as they say

 

[mike]

It looked to me like challenge, that you'd like bet 20K that he couldn't reproduce a circle. So I was scratching my head, because I have no doubt that humans are capable of making cc's.

Again i wonder about your reading and comprehension skills Jimi, it wasnt me that offered the 20K, it wasnt even a bet.

It was a challenge though, recreate these circles and get 20k...... no one took him up though

Odd given it was south america, thats a lot of money in a country with a reputation for poverty where the average citizen is concerned

Maybe the CC creators were bored rich kids who didnt need that sort of money

 

[Burnt State]

From Steve Alexander's description of the event and follow up:

The Milk Hill UFO Footage

This would be a classic example of how something as mundane as a bird flapping its wings about a field looking for a tasty treat to eat gets suddenly extrapolated into an orb. But then the story gets magnified further in the claims of stopping engines - now it's a UFO. This is what I'm talking about when I say that things called "paranormal events" are invented by people who distort mundane reality in the name of collecting anecdotes to prove an unfounded view. I don't believe in setting out to find a needle in a hay stack and then claiming an old nail left in the field is the holy grail of needles.

 

[Burnt State]

But the paper isn't about ST and is not at all related to her role in crop circles. She posted the paper on her site because he asked her to in order to enlarge his audience for what he writes there. Why not read it and comment on it, Matt? I wish you would and that others here also would. This conversation is still swimming around in the shallow end.

Here's the link to the Vigoda paper again -- well worth reading:

http://theconversation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Crop-Circles-Legitimacy.pdf

The basic points of this paper hold little in the way of any scientific legitimacy as we know that the claimed plant anomalies are not anomalous but natural. What is most significant in the paper is its tone that desires to find cosmic significance, spiritual awakening and to find some personal meaning in a symbol to cure some existential angst. These are deep seated human drives and should not be used to leverage a paranormal conclusion. When you do that then suddenly Easter Islands' statues, the pyramids and every other ancient structure or circle of stones becomes something that aliens invented - an insult to human desires and skill IMHO.

The only thing legitimate here is the human desire to imagine things outside ourselves because our species is enamored with the spiritual other. We long to touch the face of god or at least feel that alien presence unfold inside of us like moonflower unfurling at night. What is constant in this discussion is our desire for that which is always beyond our grasp and simply a product of our imagination and longings.

 

[Burnt State]

Most readers of ufo research in this forum will probably know who Bob Pratt is and recognize the quality of his work in that field. Here is his website on crop circles, fyi:

Crop circles and their message (2)

This is the real paranormal Pratt clap trap unfolding. When we wrote the bible we also claimed it was god's hand guiding us. No matter how many wonderful truths and conclusions that we draw from it, it simply does not make it so. Yet, unchallenged it stays as 'proof' spawning religious fervour in its wake.

 

[Matthew Williams]

Are you sure you're not exaggerating things when you use the word "vitriol". Perhaps there are some farmers who might feel vitriolic toward those people who are trespassing and trampling down their crops, but "extreme bitterness and hatred" ( the definition of vitriol ) seems rather unsubstantiated. Are there any examples you or @Matthew Williams can provide to illustrate what you mean with respect to cooperating toward a common investigative goal?

I know where Constance is coming from and its more on the anger represented by the crop circle challenge 2013 organisers and their buddies. The farmers really dont et involved in comment most of the time. No we are talking about a few researchers who tried to get clever by running a challenge with a £100k prize and ended up showing their true colours in attacking the very same circlemakers they were asking to be part of the challenge. Hmmm... how does that work...

So Matthew whats your take on the reports of equipment malfunction sometimes reported

I forgot to mention re magnets and compasses etc. Someone did spread iron filings in one circle. This was found by researchers who sent it off to levengood because it had "magnetic" properties. Iron filing being magnetic... go figure. Anyhow Levengood managed to say that this was meteroric dust which by its blah blah give me some more money for my research factor was tested to be from another star system... yes indeed simple iron filings could be from other star systems. This chap really could reel it out.

As far as compasses going wild in other circles. Well going back to the experiments we did where an electrostatic meter was brought in by researcher Ron Russell. His readings in the circle we created by daylight were the highest he had measured on his equipment.

Im not a physicist but would I be correct in saying that a static charge will attract a metal leaf in simple tests we may have done as kids at school. Will it also attract a magnet? If so then any human made circle could make magnets in compasses go off? I read that compasses do not deflect in the build up to a lightning strike but do so at the strike. To answer this might require a real expert, not of the levengood calibre. So is the static on a large area such as a crop circle - over a very wide area enough of an accumulation to cause magnetic fluctuations?

I think even the BBC had equipment issues once inside a circle

 

[Jimi H.]

.. it wasnt me that offered the 20K, it wasnt even a bet.

Sorry, I was too fast there.

 

[manxman]

matty, just to be clear, i dont class you as a crank with a plank, you are quite a well written, and spoken man, my ' made with planks, by planks, for planks ' is directed to the CC'ers who made them to trick the soft lads into believing they were 'alien' in construction, they are the same type of jerk that makes youtube fakes.

 

[trainedobserver]

As im sure youve noticed already, our debate isnt about crop circles per se.
Its about absolute claims of fact and standards of evidence.

Well, I'm talking about crop circles and the fact that the overwhelming evidence that the complex crop circle "phenomena" is nothing more than humans with simple tools.

If every complex crop circle I look at is man-made, and people are telling me they are making them, at some point unless I just have some religious conviction that precludes it, it is reasonable to conclude that complex crop circles are being made by people. Could there be some crop circle somewhere I haven't seen that wasn't made by a person? I highly doubt it, because I have no evidence for it, but I would be more than willing to consider the new crop circle anyway, should one present itself.

I realize this is a religion for many folks and even though they are shown how they are made and by whom, some will still contend that "some" crop circles "might" be made by some "paranormal" means. Sheesh. Thus the facepalm.

 

[Constance]

I know where Constance is coming from and its more on the anger represented by the crop circle challenge 2013 organisers and their buddies.

Not where I'm coming from, Matt. Anger has been endemic on both sides of the cc origins issue for decades in Wiltshire, bitterly expressed in the forums (especially after AP established his cc page on facebook). Janez Ferjancic's CC Challenge -- with a $100 K prize for a team that would recreate the Milk Hill Galaxy of 2001 -- was effectively a 'put up or shut up' challenge to circlemakers. There were no takers; instead there was a tidal wave of angry rhetoric in several forums (you know which ones), escalating to outrageous levels of character assassination coming from both sides. It's all gone too far for too long for me to see any cooperative effort involving both sides at this point. I do see why Wiltshire ccmakers refused to take the challenge; the Milk Hill Galaxy was such an immense formation the chances for failure to reproduce it were considerable. Janez's expressed contempt for ccmakers (he could never refer to them as anything but 'hoaxers') didn't help. The games played by Irving, Swale, Thomas Anderson, and others didn't help. Anderson, who is widely regarded as one of the most skilled circlemakers these days, ranted and raved at researchers in the Challenge forum for months over the summer, first claiming to have been part of the team that produced the East Hill 7/7/7 formation and then admitting several weeks later that he had 'lied about that'. It's a zoo over there, Matt. The subject is too complex, the history is too long (many younger ccmakers are in fact completely unaware of it), and emotions run too high to expect anything to change. There's no basis of mutual trust to enable the overcoming of disinformation, misinformation, confusion, and long-embedded antagonisms.

The farmers really dont [g]et involved in comment most of the time. No we are talking about a few researchers who tried to get clever by running a challenge with a £100k prize and ended up showing their true colours in attacking the very same circlemakers they were asking to be part of the challenge. Hmmm... how does that work...

You're oversimplifying what happened this summer and the last fifty summers in Wiltshire to your own advantage, Matt. If crop circle research is ever regenerated -- in a situation where it is not obstructed and extensively misrepresented -- it will have to be in another time and probably in another place.

 

[Constance]

Well, I'm talking about crop circles and the fact that the overwhelming evidence that the complex crop circle "phenomena" is nothing more than humans with simple tools. . . . I realize this is a religion for many folks and even though they are shown how they are made and by whom, some will still contend that "some" crop circles "might" be made by some "paranormal" means. Sheesh. Thus the facepalm.

Trained observer, you don't seem to have taken onboard yet the currently foregrounded statements of human circlemakers in Wiltshire concerning their paranormal experiences in the fields. The crop circle subject is becoming more complex again given the ccmakers' recent public focus on their paranormal experiences -- on websites including Matt's and in video lectures by newcomer Rob Buckle, who claims that ccmakers have special, indeed unique, access to the paranormal. Sounds like crop circle 'priests' in spades.

 

[mike]

Well, I'm talking about crop circles and the fact that the overwhelming evidence that the complex crop circle "phenomena" is nothing more than humans with simple tools.

If every complex crop circle I look at is man-made, and people are telling me they are making them, at some point unless I just have some religious conviction that precludes it, it is reasonable to conclude that complex crop circles are being made by people. Could there be some crop circle somewhere I haven't seen that wasn't made by a person? I highly doubt it, because I have no evidence for it, but I would be more than willing to consider the new crop circle anyway, should one present itself.

I realize this is a religion for many folks and even though they are shown how they are made and by whom, some will still contend that "some" crop circles "might" be made by some "paranormal" means. Sheesh. Thus the facepalm.

And all i'm saying is the statistical probability of zero is not the same as zero, they are indeed contradictory vales.
I'm not wedded to the idea CC's are made by aliens, its the false logic of claiming they nothing more aka ALL man made, where no such evidence for such an absolute value exists that concerns me. You are claiming a zero, from a statistical probability of zero. And it may well be a moot point. but its still a tiny leap too far imo.

Moving on,
How do you reconcile the claims by Matthew, John and Rod and Rods claim

What about reports of strange energies and paranormal events in the crop formations. Have you ever seen lights or felt anything strange while you're out there?" RD: "Yes, I have," Rod said. "And so have most of the other circle makers

That most of the other circlemakers have experienced paranormal events ?

Are they all telling porkie pies (cant resist some Cockney Rhyming Slang here)
Are they all mistaken

Or are these events happening as they claim

 

[trainedobserver]

How do you reconcile the claims by Matthew, John and Rod and Rods claim

That most of the other circlemakers have experienced paranormal events ?

Are they all telling porkie pies (cant resist some Cockney Rhyming Slang here)
Are they all mistaken

Or are these events happening as they claim

The question of whether circlemakers have experienced paranormal events is a completely different story from the question of who makes them. Apparently they do experience strange things. I don't find it too surprising that people committing crimes in the English countryside under the cover of darkness would experience strange things now and again. That there would be some "psychic" or "psychological" component seems as logical for this as it does for the UFO phenomenon.

The overarching theme and behavior within the crop circle scene seems to have always been deception. It's enough to give you pause when considering any claim associated with the things. If there are paranormal events associated with crop circles I would be more prone to believe it has to do more with the people involved than the activity or the symbols they are making by trampling plants.

Once you realize that the complex crop circle business is a human one full of the usual human motivators it becomes a lot less interesting from any "paranormal" aspect, at least it did for me personally.

 

[Constance]

Moving on,
How do you reconcile the claims by Matthew, John and Rod and Rods claim

That most of the other circlemakers have experienced paranormal events ?

Are they all telling porkie pies (cant resist some Cockney Rhyming Slang here)
Are they all mistaken

Or are these events happening as they claim

Good question. Apparently not all of them have had these experiences. Here's a recent statement by an old school ccmaker, a member of CCmakers.org, whose summary of what's involved in human ccmaking shows no sign of awareness of the paranormal phenomena his colleagues increasingly refer to publicly:

Wil Russell: i stand by what I have always said, it is a game

and as long as everyone plays by the rules (like them or not)

nobody gets hurt. The circle makers keep their mouths shut,

and the researchers promote the work and keep the uninformed

interested. the moment humans start claiming authorship,

lo and behold it all starts to implode – the researchers

become paranoid and defensive, the media lose interest,

the farmers see it as vandalism, the circle makers become

less interested and slowly but surely the whole subject dies

apart from a few stragglers clinging onto their nugget.

 

[Constance]

Trained observer wrote: "The overarching theme and behavior within the crop circle scene seems to have always been deception."

That is correct. Occasional references to ccmaker's paranormal experiences in the fields have been made only rarely and usually anonymously in the past, not foregrounded with claimants' names attached as we are seeing now. As I suggested earlier, I think this is an effort to maintain interest in the crop circles in Wiltshire. And I continue to wonder why this effort is being made.

 

[manxman]

money constance, the number 1 motivator for those who do not have enough of it.

 

[Constance]

Burnt State wrote: "The basic points of this paper hold little in the way of any scientific legitimacy as we know that the claimed plant anomalies are not anomalous but natural."

I think you're talking about surface signs (extended apical nodes and blown nodes) which are, in fact, not visible in many known-manmade crop circles. The more significant anomalies Vigoda discusses (none yet explained) occur deep inside the plants in their cellular walls visible only through electron scanning microscopy; in the changes in cc seeds and the dramatic differences in growth rate and vitality of plants grown from those seeds; and in mineralogical evidence (anomalous mineral crystallization in some crop circle soils; the presence of magnetized iron particles found in many formations {notably thicker at the center and thinning out toward the perimeter}; and the presence of iron spherules similar to those found at the sites of cattle mutilations.

 

[Constance]

money constance, the number 1 motivator for those who do not have enough of it.

That's my guess too, manxman.

 

[Randall]

Burnt State wrote: "The basic points of this paper hold little in the way of any scientific legitimacy as we know that the claimed plant anomalies are not anomalous but natural."

I think you're talking about surface signs (extended apical nodes and blown nodes) which are, in fact, not visible in many known-manmade crop circles. The more significant anomalies Vigoda discusses (none yet explained) occur deep inside the plants in their cellular walls visible only through electron scanning microscopy; in the changes in cc seeds and the dramatic differences in growth rate and vitality of plants grown from those seeds; and in mineralogical evidence (anomalous mineral crystallization in some crop circle soils; the presence of magnetized iron particles found in many formations {notably thicker at the center and thinning out toward the perimeter}; and the presence of iron spherules similar to those found at the sites of cattle mutilations.

I'm no expert cereologist, but I've looked at videos where some of the claims you mention are made, and I'm not convinced that they are necessarily of any special significance. Before we can be sure that the crop circle makers are responsible for any of the reported effects, we would need to have set a baseline by taking a sample of the same plant immediately before the circle event for comparison, otherwise seemingly anomalous cellular observations may have been there before the event, in which case the crop circle has nothing to do with it. Same goes for the other trace evidence. Mineral crystallization and magnetic iron filings aren't something that can't be attributed to human involvement. All that being said, there is something odd about the phenomenon as a whole. I tend to lean in favor of disinformation as the root cause, resulting in copycats and commercialization, while the real thing ( if there is such a thing ) is actually the non-reported boring saucer nest or burn circle over the hill that they don't want people looking into.