May 28, 2017 — Chris Rutkowski with J. Randall Murphy

[Randall]

Well, to the matter at hand.

I haven't read the book - still working my way through Reframing the Debate - but I have looked at every image I can get my hands on regarding the burns on the shirt and the body.

They don't match. They just don't.

My reasons for this assertion:

1. The gradient of the burns on the shirt goes the opposite way of the marks on the body - the shirt marks are darker on the top and the marks on the body are darker on the bottom.
2. They are also placed higher on the shirt than the body.
3. They are also larger on the body than the shirt.
4. The bottom row which is clearly visible as having a smaller number of dots on the shirt is not visible on the body.
5. Additionally, there is a clear edge around the marks on the shirt - what looks to be edging around a grate - that isn't on the body.

In short, I don't think what caused the marks on the body are what caused the marks on the shirt. I just cannot envision a scenario whereby the two are causally linked.

And yet, he says they are. Which means that he is likely lying.

Which kind of makes the whole case DOA, doesn't it?

Hopefully someone can chime in here and tell me how I'm wrong, because this is one of my favourite cases that I had high hopes for.

Yup. Careful observation and critical thinking can be a powerful thing.

 

[Randall]

He does say he was knocked down to the ground during the blast so perhaps if we discount the notion that he was standing upright for the entire duration of the burning you may find your answer their for the discrepancies. He does also get seriously ill in a manner that is not entirely explained including the many strange flareups over the years.

Actually, as I mentioned before, virtually all his symptoms are common symptoms of hitting the bottle and as anyone with a few years in AA can probably tell you, people are very good at hiding their habits, even from their closest friends and family. So once in a while if he fell off the wagon it would explain a lot. I'm quite serious. There are guys who have hidden whole other families from each other and lived dual lives for years. Keeping an alcohol habit hidden would be a cakewalk by comparison. I like Rutkowski but this case still doesn't pass the smell test for me.

 

[marduk]

I think he said it was wood ash on the back of his head. So was he lying down when that happened? Perhaps from his night of drinking before?

I'm really giving the illogical benefit of the doubt to the greater authority as he's one of the few working Ufologists in operation.

He appears the officer genuinely afraid and concerned he may hurt the officer.

I don't think the two are missing. We see one just above his waistband. The shirt must have been in such a position hanging low on him and the nature of the emissions must have been what they were to produce the effect they did. I just don't see Rutkowski hanging his hat on this case if he's not convinced this is a unique case. The pure silver bar embedded with radiation and radiation levels being so high they were going to close the park suggests sonething very anomalous did take place.

But I understand that your critique stands. Let's get Rutkowski to weigh in on your analysis.

I'll also read the book. He could have answered all this for all I know...

 

[marduk]

Actually, as I mentioned before, virtually all his symptoms are common symptoms of hitting the bottle and as anyone with a few years in AA can probably tell you, people are very good at hiding their habits, even from their closest friends and family. So once in a while if he fell off the wagon it would explain a lot. I'm quite serious. There are guys who have hidden whole other families from each other and lived dual lives for years. Keeping an alcohol habit hidden would be a cakewalk by comparison. I like Rutkowski but this case still doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Possible - I was specifically trying to put everything aside except the two physical things he said were linked that were also photographed.

The one question I started to ask myself was "were these made by the same thing at the same time?"

And increasingly that seemed unlikely.

 

[marduk]

Stupid question... where can I ask this question of Chris?
Went to Ufology Research and don't see a spot to post.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

You can try on Facebook.

 

[wwkirk]

Actually, as I mentioned before, virtually all his symptoms are common symptoms of hitting the bottle and as anyone with a few years in AA can probably tell you, people are very good at hiding their habits, even from their closest friends and family. So once in a while if he fell off the wagon it would explain a lot. I'm quite serious. There are guys who have hidden whole other families from each other and lived dual lives for years. Keeping an alcohol habit hidden would be a cakewalk by comparison. I like Rutkowski but this case still doesn't pass the smell test for me.

You seem very skeptical for a UFO researcher. Could you give an example of one or two cases you do regard as legitimate?

 

[Randall]

Stupid question... where can I ask this question of Chris?
Went to Ufology Research and don't see a spot to post.

You can find his email here.

 

[Randall]

You seem very skeptical for a UFO researcher.

I should hope so. It's something that's underrepresented in a positive way within the field.

Could you give an example of one or two cases you do regard as legitimate?

As I've explained in other posts, although I do believe the phenomenon is real, I wouldn't stake my reputation on any single case. Some are just better explained than others. One of the single best case studies I can think of is the 1952 Washington DC flap. I say this because in that case we have a variety of factors contributing to both sides of the debate. On one hand there are temperature inversions, lens flares and misinterpreted radar signals. On the other there are multiple radar contacts observed by multiple operators at different locations that were witnessed by both civilian and military observers.

There was also direct line of sight observation, and in one case, a radar/visual by a USAF pilot who was vectored in by ground radar and was able to visually confirm real objects that took-up positions around his jet before streaking off into the distance. There are too many highly trained people involved in this incident over too long a period to offhandedly dismiss it, but it still takes a fair bit of sifting to separate the signal from the noise. It's too much to go into detail here on the forum in a single post.

The RAF Bentwaters case sans The Rendlesham Incident also has a lot of similar characteristics, and with all that's gone on with the sensationalization of the Rendlesham Incident, I'm tempted to think it's been used as a smoke screen. Basically, UFO reports were once taken very seriously by the military, and within that body of case studies there are a few gems. Apart from those I go on my own experience and intuition. The Zimbabwe and Westhall school incidents also stand out in my mind. Sometimes I get the feeling that I just believe seemingly regular people like this nice little ole' UK lady ...

 

[Burnt State]

Stupid question... where can I ask this question of Chris?
Went to Ufology Research and don't see a spot to post.

You can post comments right under the Falcon Lake article but not on the main page. He's usually pretty good at responding back to discussion points there.

 

[marduk]

I've emailed him.

 

[archivist13]

While I may not agree with everything Randall says, it is nice to hear another thoughtful skeptical person on the Paracast. I had mixed feelings after the Bosley interview, probably simply because it was somebody different. Chris and all the other cohosts that have been helping out the last year or so have been doing a great job and I enjoy getting other perspectives when they are on. Also, great job Gene on letting your cohosts have a voice and not simply having them on as filler while you dominate the conversations.

 

[marduk]

Any idea when this book comes out as an e-book? Can't find it anywhere.

 

[Randall]

While I may not agree with everything Randall says, it is nice to hear another thoughtful skeptical person on the Paracast. I had mixed feelings after the Bosley interview, probably simply because it was somebody different. Chris and all the other cohosts that have been helping out the last year or so have been doing a great job and I enjoy getting other perspectives when they are on. Also, great job Gene on letting your cohosts have a voice and not simply having them on as filler while you dominate the conversations.

Thanks for the comment. Mixed feeling are often a good thing because it means there's some food for thought in there someplace. I tend to learn more from disagreements because they force me to examine my beliefs, and when we do that, sometimes new and unexpected things can come out of it. That is, so long as it's all constructive. Sometimes that can be a challenge, especially with the really hard-core skeptics.

 

[marduk]

Thanks for the comment. Mixed feeling are often a good thing because it means there's some food for thought in there someplace. I tend to learn more from disagreements because they force me to examine my beliefs, and when we do that, sometimes new and unexpected things can come out of it. That is, so long as it's all constructive. Sometimes that can be a challenge, especially with the really hard-core skeptics.

I'd be one myself, if pesky life experiences wouldn't have gotten in the way.

 

[wwkirk]

Chris (on Facebook) says he has the shirt and has compared them to to the burns. He implies they match.

 

[marduk]

Chris (on Facebook) says he has the shirt and has compared them to to the burns. He implies they match.

Do you know if he goes into that in the book? Still haven't found it on amazon or iBooks so I haven't read it yet.

 

[wwkirk]

Here is the exchange:

Kirk Walker: The dots on his body are bigger than the dots on the shirt.

Chris Rutkowski : Yes. What would expected from a point source of gas discharging and spreading

Chris Rutkowski: And the skin reaction to the chemical burns

 

[wwkirk]

Do you know if he goes into that in the book? Still haven't found it on amazon or iBooks so I haven't read it yet.

I don't know. I don't have the book either.

 

[marduk]

Here is the exchange:

Kirk Walker: The dots on his body are bigger than the dots on the shirt.

Chris Rutkowski : Yes. What would expected from a point source of gas discharging and spreading

Chris Rutkowski: And the skin reaction to the chemical burns

But that's not really what we see, is it?

We don't see the dots get bigger within the same size grid - meaning the spaces between them get smaller.

We see a totally different sized grid to begin with, with a different number of dots on the bottom row, and the gradient is opposite.