More Serious UFO Reporting

[Randall]

Re: Phil Plait Video More Serious UFO Reporting | Page 8 | The Paracast Community Forums

Excellent video Angelo. I wish the JREF forum people would actually pay attention to him. Unfortunately what Phil is forgetting to mention, perhaps strategically, or perhaps out of idealism for his belief, is that his plea assumes that the offenders of whom he speaks are all noble intention at heart, and that their poor behavior is a result of any number of problems that are of course the fault of all the idiots in the world who don't think the same way he and other skeptics do, and that if the offenders could just learn to bite their tongues and count to 100 before reacting, then perhaps they'll be more effective at winning over their audience. Why is this an unfortunate assumption? Because it's been my experience, particularly with the cabal over on the JREF forum, that the offenders don't care about skepticism nor do they have any noble cause. In fact I've made the same appeal as Phil to them and it simply elicited more abuse. One was even so bold as to announce, to quote: "I aint to steenkin skeptic!"

So the reality is that there are certain types of people who don't care about skepticism or the paranormal or human rights or politics or whatever the theme of the forum is. They're only there to throw sand in the faces of those in the sandbox and then laugh at them. They get satisfaction not from participating in a conversation or making any point, but in evoking anger and chaos and ruining the fun of others. That is the purpose of the troll. They are the bullies of the beach ( any beach will do ) and they often pose as advocates of some position in order to gain sympathy, but in truth they're just using those people to advance their agenda. So trying to convince them of the noble efforts of your cause is a vain effort that only feeds them further. IMO they're people with serious personality disorders, or are perhaps even psychological warfare agents.

 

[Atticus11]

I have posted my account in detail with maps and diagrams. Get off your lazy ass and find them.

If your tall-tale actually contains the verifiable components I requested, it would take you 5-seconds to post a link. I've checked the search function and the closest I could find from you was a wild-eyed string of posts declaring your belief that a global conspiracy of the Illuminati and Freemasons were involved in destroying the World Trade Center from an underground volcano base or something like that.

You made an outrageous claim, you were asked for backup, and you have flatly refused to provide it, yelling that you have no time to copy/paste a URL (yet still finding time to pound out a number of invectives and insults). This same sequence of events is repeated 10,000 times each day in the wonderful world of ufology.

Next?

 

[Atticus11]

Atticus,
While you dismiss this entire phenom with a broad stroke of a brush, the fact remains that you are here and obviously plugged into all things ongoing in the land of ufology. You claim your interest is purely for comedic relief, and the hope of pulling one from the depts of darkness and fantasy- a place you claim to have once occupied. We may never know what avenues or outlets you found yourself in, before your own realization- perhaps it was one of Greer's expensive flashlight tours..but I believe you still have more than a passive interest. Jaded with a bit of a grudge, but here you are.

First, my interest is not purely one of "comedic relief." I certainly admit that there is a lot of comedy - particularly with several of the characters in this thread - when you press, ever so slightly, anyone to provide a shard of evidence for this self-destructive fetishist belief system, however, that is not my primary point of interest.

Second, I absolutely have much more than a passive interest. I would describe my interest as keen and intense, frankly. I believe ufology consists of two types of people: the gullible and the guileful. The first type prey on the superstitions and fears of the second. I have absolutely zero respect for the guileful - people like Stanton Friedman or Nick Pope - and consider them different than L. Ron Hubbard only in the much more marginal level of success they've managed to achieve.

If it seems like I'm a dick I hope my dickishness will be perceived as limited in direction toward professional ufologists like Hastings, Friedman, Pope, Molton-Howe, Greer, Bassett, Davenport, et. al. I won't treat these people seriously or civilly anymore than someone would treat a roadside preacher who gives healing potions to cancer patients with seriousness or civility. (The only exception I would be willing to make to this is in the case of George Knapp who I think is wrong, but, probably in a well-intentioned and non-manipulative way. With the exception of the Bob Lazar delusion, he's generally exercised admirable self-control in propagating the most wildly unsubstantiated claims.)

Finally, ufology is not a harmless distraction. It is a dangerous, cultish, belief system that has served as the gateway to violent, extremist thought (see: William Cooper, Ernst Zündel, Shoko Asahara, etc.). While people should enjoy absolute freedom to make whatever wild claims they want about UFOs, that same freedom should simultaneously be used by the sober-minded to aggressively challenge this socially destructive scam.

(ufologist + follower) - skeptics =

 

[Goggs Mackay]

You are being a dick - you can make your point without for instance insinuation that Ufology (Randall) does not contribute to society, as if he is some drop-out on welfare. Neither you nor I nor anyone can claim who, if anyone, has been 'programmed' and is in need of 'de-programming'.

There is no need for such comments, can you please stick to actual arguments please. Arguments with or without supporting evidence are welcome in the forum but needless personal attacks are not.

Also to blame Ufology as a field for the nut that was William Cooper is ridiculous. He was a charlatan that hijacked the work of anyone he came in contact with. Just to prove that the UFO field is in no way responsible for Bill Cooper, you should check out our very own Don Ecker's 'De-constructing Bill Cooper' - a fascinating insight into this drunken, paranoid man, who in no-way represents the rest of society that is 'into' UFOs.

The subject of UFOs is not at all stupid, it is undeniable that there are objects in the sky that no-one can account for, and that point of view is shared by many official bodies in many modern countries. Going as far as ET occupants may indeed be beyond the pale until proved otherwise but not everyone who is interested in UFOs goes around proclaiming that the earth is being visited by beings from another planet. Unknown objects in our skies are a fact and that is not up for debate. What they are and where they might be from absolutely is.

 

[Atticus11]

Arguments with or without supporting evidence are welcome in the forum but needless personal attacks are not.

I see ...

atticus is a perfect example of why some mothers eat their young.

... a fascinating insight into this drunken, paranoid man, who in no-way represents the rest of society that is 'into' UFOs.

You don't get it. Sorry, not sure what else to say here.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

If you think Pixels comment is too much then you should say so specifically. I don't know what your point about Cooper is though, it's known that he drank too much and would be nasty when so. My point about Cooper though, is that you seemed to have held him up as an example of what people interested in UFOs are like, my contention is that Bill Cooper was Bill Cooper, he was what he was regardless of whether he was interested in UFOs, he certainly does not represent the average person in Ufology.

I don't have a problem with you saying things about people like Greer, as I think he has a messiah complex and is knowingly conning people out of money and making promises he cannot possibly keep - there is indeed people like him in the field, but there are such people in all walks of life. You can't just paint all people interested in UFOs as the same as it is just not true. The skeptical view is as welcome in the forum as any other, I am not against posts that are anti-ufology or anything, I was pointing out that you were making sweeping statements.

 

[Wade]

given how Cooper met his demise I'd say goggs nailed it. as far as pixel's statement I will not comment on it. it does seem this thread has become a war of attrition maybe all concetened should go back to our respective corners. we are ALL above this .

atticus11 even if you don't see yourself being a dick your current signature is a dickish one.

**the statement about Hastings I won't fight**

 

[pixelsmith]

given how Cooper met his demise I'd say goggs nailed it. as far as pixel's statement I will not comment on it. it does seem this thread has become a war of attrition maybe all concetened should go back to our respective corners. we are ALL above this .

atticus11 even if you don't see yourself being a dick your current signature is a dickish one.

I am headed off to 2 days of blues music, have fun with adickus, at this rate he will be banned within days.

 

[Atticus11]

for efficiency, I'm replying to the Triumvirate in a single post:

If you think Pixels comment is too much then you should say so specifically.

I don't. I also don't think I've said anything worse - or even approaching the same level of vitriol - than another poster should be eaten alive by his mother. However, I was singled out to be publicly chastised for some unspecified transgression.

My point about Cooper though, is that you seemed to have held him up as an example of what people interested in UFOs are like

You should accept words for what they say, not what you want them to say. In my previous post I said:

It is a dangerous, cultish, belief system that has served as the gateway to violent, extremist thought (see: William Cooper, Ernst Zündel, Shoko Asahara, etc.).

I don't have a problem with you saying things about people like Greer

I know this is the principal thought process in ufology; that is "person X and person Z are sober intellectuals ... person A and person B are crazies" as though there are different strata of respectability. I can assure you, once you've been de-programmed, the differences between "person X" and "person A" are a lot less dramatic than you'd believe and their claims every bit as wild-eyed. I stand by everything I said.

atticus11 even if you don't see yourself being a dick your current signature is a dickish one

You should accept words for what they say, not what you want them to say. In my previous post I said:

I hope my dickishness will be perceived as limited in direction toward professional ufologists like Hastings, Friedman, Pope, Molton-Howe, Greer, Bassett, Davenport, et. al. I won't treat these people seriously or civilly anymore than someone would treat a roadside preacher who gives healing potions to cancer patients with seriousness or civility.

Frankly, anything I post about these people is about 10% as bad as what I actually think of them ... but, this is a sue-happy crowd and I am always conscious to make sure I don't say something that takes me in the vicinity of the D word (defamation). Even SLAP suits are still a nuisance.

the statement about Hastings I won't fight

Click the link and read the thread. There was no fight. There was a string of exactly two posts. Hastings - speaking through an interlocuteur (which was a bit bizarre in itself) - made a wild claim, I calmly and politely requested proof - proof that should have been easily providable with no more 30-90 seconds effort - and he responded by shouting "I'M DONE HERE" and leaving the thread.

This is the M.O. in ufology (see Pixelsmith or a thousand other examples). The minute proof is requested for an acutely wild claim, one of a few things occurs: (1) the person screams they don't have time and storms off, (2) the person yells "JUST GOOGLE IT!" and storms off, (3) the person accuses you of being an undercover CIA agent and/or reptilian shapeshifter and storms off. Hastings did Option 1 this time. Don't make it sound like he is this wise, elder scientist who - in dignified tones - demurely withdrew in the interest of avoiding a tête-à-tête. It was nothing so illustrious. It was the same kind of mad, fist-shaking, charge-and-retreat that he used with Carlson in their wild melees spanning the dusty corners of the blogosphere.

I am headed off to 2 days of blues music, have fun with adickus, at this rate he will be banned within days.

In the time it took you to pound out - with barely contained glee - your hope that contravening or diverse viewpoints that challenge your belief system would soon be stamped out, you could have posted a link to the thing you said offers unimpeachable proof of your previous claim of having been accosted by flying saucers ... the link you keep saying you can't post because you don't have time.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I understand your what you said about Ufology being a gateway, I just think it's no more a gateway to outlandish behaviour than many other pursuits or interesting. Let's go to religion if you really want to explore that line of thinking.

I totally agree there are nuts in ufology but there are nuts everywhere. I say again that if you forget the space-brother-ET is telling us to look after the planet stuff, some of us are simply interested in objects in the sky that are unidentified. That is totally serious without need to bring in all the other crap.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

Atticus11 - you are not a good skeptic... You're just making yourself look like a dick.

You need to watch this:

This was beautiful, Angel, thanks. I have noticed a push within the skeptical community to be 'nicer' and more 'gentle' when it comes to engaging the true believers and what-no. You get more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar.

 

[dyingsun]

All this gets so old so fast. Some self proclaimed skeptic storms in, 'schools' us 'believers' on it all and rides away. 'As a true believer, I..'..yeah, no dice. If one digs a little deeper into the forum..but, alas(oh, hey), no.

 

[Randall]

You get more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar.

But ... Why would anyone want more flies?

 

[Atticus11]

All this gets so old so fast. Some self proclaimed skeptic storms in, 'schools' us 'believers' on it all and rides away. 'As a true believer, I..'..yeah, no dice. If one digs a little deeper into the forum..but, alas(oh, hey), no.

I'm sorry, what language is this?

 

[Bulk]

Um..stream of consciousness
scream of consciousness?

Atticus11 has left the building.

Bulk