"Mutilated cow creepy, suspicious"

[SonofaSkunk]

From a cause and effect standpoint, one is left with the plausibility that the intended result is theater.

Hmmmm,, may be getting warm,,,,,,

This would mean that what is left behind is much more important than what is taken.

Warmer,,,,,,,

But it does look more like stage craft calculated to intimidate or mythologize than genuine scientific research.

Smokin hot now!!!!,,,,,,,,

Its the same old disinformation fun house !

Ding, ding, da, dingity, ding!!!!! I think we have another winnah!!!!!!

 

[trainedobserver]

Ok, SOS. Is it just a big show to scare people? Is that it? Why? It's a pretty limited group of people that even know about this business and even a much smaller number that it directly impacts in any way.

 

[SonofaSkunk]

Ok, SOS. Is it just a big show to scare people? Is that it? Why? It's a pretty limited group of people that even know about this business and even a much smaller number that it directly impacts in any way.

Oh, I don't think for one minute it's to scare or intimidate. More like a magician and "misdirection." Get the "audience" to look somewhere else while you sneak the rabbit into the hat. I also think it's far from the only example of misdirection by the government. But, that's a subject for a whole other thread isn't it?

 

[trainedobserver]

Oh, I don't think for one minute it's to scare or intimidate. More like a magician and "misdirection." Get the "audience" to look somewhere else while you sneak the rabbit into the hat. I also think it's far from the only example of misdirection by the government. But, that's a subject for a whole other thread isn't it?

Misdirection from what?

 

[boomerang]

Why we are being misdirected may be the "Sixty Four Thousand Dollar" question. Or more like 64 billion dollars, perhaps. Assuming we are on the correct fork in the big-mystery-flow-chart to start with.

 

[trainedobserver]

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." It could be that cattle mutilations are less true high strangeness and more earthy with the elements of theater, as has been suggested, functioning as an umbrella under which many different things could be achieved. I suspect it is a tactic being employed to achieve various goals at various times. Forgoing criticism of their inarguably criminal methods and whether we can think of a better way to achieve them, what could some of these goals be based on what we know about cattle mutilations?

• Environmental monitoring - taking biological samples of grazing animals tells you a lot about the local ecosystem.
  • Uranium mining, biological warfare, nuclear weapons tests
• Intimidation - making it an act of terrorismaimed at the rancher.
  • Displacing current residents, manipulation, discrediting or marginalizing individuals
• Distraction - look here at this while we do that over there.

If you read much Vallee, in particular Revelations and Messengers of Deception you get the idea that he came to believe that there are factions within various agencies and organizations around the world, both governmental and private, who are driven to perform unconstitutional and criminal acts in the support of unconventional belief systems and ideologies that many of us would find bizarre or even insane. Gabe Valdez seemed to be trying to tell us that one or more of these criminal or quasi-criminal organizations is employing cattle mutilations as a tactic. I might have it all wrong but when I shake it all it all out that is what I see.

 

[mike]

I am spartacus

Remember how that works ?

The real spartacus gets buried under the duplicates.

Lets say for a moment ET's are responsible for some of the original crop circles and cattle mutilations, what better way to hide that reality, than to make your own and let it be known you made them.

http://www.cropcircles.net/cia.htm

 

[trainedobserver]

I am spartacus

Remember how that works ?

The real spartacus gets buried under the duplicates.

Lets say for a moment ET's are responsible for some of the original crop circles and cattle mutilations, what better way to hide that reality, than to make your own and let it be known you made them.

http://www.cropcircles.net/cia.htm

The number of people who actually give a hoot about crop circles and cattle mutilations is pretty small. The number of people within that number that would actually believe they are the result of alien activity is smaller. The number of people within that group that have any power, influence, or control over anything whatsoever whose perception of an alien presence would have to managed must be nonexistent or in the lower single digits. So going through all the expense, trouble, and time to make decoy crop circles or mutilations to throw them off the scent appears to be totally unnecessary not even a remote possibility. In short, it is a non-issue for 99.9% of the planet.

 

[boomerang]

Great thread and insightful observations here.

Keep in mind that changing the subconscious mind of a culture or society may differ in method and scope than changing what is consciously believed and decided in public. Mythology operates at very powerful but unseen levels. This is also one of Vallee's key points. The majority of people may dismiss high strangeness events with a shrug and have their coffee on any given morning. But over years and decades, they may also be affected in ways they do not realize.

 

[trainedobserver]

Great thread and insightful observations here.

Keep in mind that changing the subconscious mind of a culture or society may differ in method and scope than changing what is consciously believed and decided in public. Mythology operates at very powerful but unseen levels. This is also one of Vallee's key points. The majority of people may dismiss high strangeness events with a shrug and have their coffee on any given morning. But over years and decades, they may also be affected in ways they do not realize.

I don't buy into any of it. Humans create crop circles with boards and rope, fly helicopters, use radar caff, and breath through gas-masks. There isn't any need for an alien element to explain any of that. Who are these genius social engineers who are stabbing at the public psyche with cattle mutilations in largely unpopulated and remote areas and self indulgent destructive graffiti in food crops? Crop circles are non-issue except for the victimized land owner. Cattle mutilations are similarly a non-issue except for the victimized rancher. The rest of the folks who care about it at all are paranormal fan-boys like us.

 

[mike]

The issue isnt so much crop circles or cattle mutilations but ET, For some reason the ET issue is being kept covered up.
The reality is UFO's do get reported in the media, polls suggest 50 percent ish of the population think they exist

Numerous public opinion polls from the last 50 years, and from multiple different countries, report very consistent and similar findings: 50% of the population believes in the reality of UFOs; and 5% of the population has seen a UFO.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/publicopinionpolls.htm.

So the real implication of ET created CC's or CM's isnt wether or not ET did them, its evidence for public consumption they exist.

If some of the CC's and CM's are physical trace evidence that ET exists, then the Spartacus gambit is perhaps the only way to bury that evidence.

Thanks to the internet the world has gone from a size medium to a size small, an event like a CM is no longer confined to a remote and unpopulated area, far from it.
The details of a case go global within hours of it hitting the datanets.

 

[trainedobserver]

If some of the CC's and CM's are physical trace evidence that ET exists, then the Spartacus gambit is perhaps the only way to bury that evidence.

It seems terribly unlikely to me that this is even a remote possibility. It is totally unnecessary. As far as my casual and haphazard appraisal of these things go, Crop Circles and Cattle Mutilations are wholly unrelated to UFO phenomena except in a peripheral manner where people actively seek to insert them into the mix for their own reasons.

 

[mike]

It seems terribly unlikely to me that this is even a remote possibility. It is totally unnecessary. As far as my casual and haphazard appraisal of these things go, Crop Circles and Cattle Mutilations are wholly unrelated to UFO phenomena except in a peripheral manner where people actively seek to insert them into the mix for their own reasons.

Well, we are each entitled to our own interpretation of the available data, for me there are aspects which go beyond the all man made scenario.

Even the human circle makers report UAP's

http://circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html

Whilst making what was at the time the most ambitious crop circle ever attempted Julian Richardson and his team were witness to a strange orange ball of light.

John Lundberg recalls several anomalies he and others witnessed whilst out making circles in Wiltshire.

Rod Dickinson describes how he inadvertently photographed a small white disk in 1991

or

CROP CIRCLE MAKER - Matthew Williams

Paranormal researcher Matthew Williams, was the first maker of crop circles in the world to be convicted for his art. Devizes, Wiltshire. (First published in Naked - Magazine of the Weird and Wonderful)
Full version of the article:
WILL THE REAL MARTIAN PLEASE STAND UP? - Or how to create a myth without really trying
Crop circles remain unexplained phenomena, continuing to baffle even the most dedicated of paranormal researchers. Conflicting accounts abound and the truth is unclear. Some maintain they are complex communications from extra terrestrials or messages sent by angels. Others insist they are merely elaborate hoaxes. Certainly, crop circles are not simply modern, or indeed post-modern occurrences. They have been documented in academic texts dating from the 17th Century and over two hundred accounts reported prior to 1970. Yet it is the period since Thatcher’s vicious reign that the circle phenomena has exploded with over ten thousand reported to date. With The X-Files, Dark Skies and more recently M Night Shyamalan's Signs, crop circles seem constantly focused in the media limelight like beams from a flying saucer.
Designs can vary widely. They range from simple circles, circles with rings or straight lines, to complex pictograms mimicking computer fractal and elements that relate to quantum physics. Despite the global furore of the headline-hitting ‘Doug and Dave’ case, where two sexagenarians admitted to making crop circles, researchers still insist that this is not a man-made phenomenon. Indeed, such ‘hoaxers’ are dismissed entirely by researchers, and net buzz quickly determined that Doug and Dave were British government and CIA stooges. Whilst admitting that certain circles are clearly terrestrial in origin, the ‘true’ circles present evidence that simply cannot be replicated by mere humans; complex designs in fields that are mathematically precise, strange magnetic interference, bent not broken stalks, huge formations covering up to 200,000 square feet and strange orbs of light that seen above the formation of a circle.
Crop circle researchers do not deny that some formations are man-made, but maintain the more complicated designs or those exhibiting paranormal activity are created by a non-human independent force. Williams realised that researchers were making ill-judged connections between paranormal events and the crop circles, but this still did not explain the unusual phenomena that the circle makers were beginning to experience themselves in the obviously man-made formations:
“When teams of people go out into the fields and make large talismanic magical symbols, somehow that does actually have some effect on physical reality and strange things happen. A couple of years down the line and a lot more weird experiences had happened to us. But I don’t know how they happen, I just know they happened. I’ve seen small balls of light which have entered the field and chased us out on one occasion. I’ve seen them passing over head. On two occasions we’ve also seen black, shadowy figures. Not as clear as a person, a little bit more rounded, but a human shape. They just disappeared. One night researchers had seen a fog bank come down where we were working, rise in the morning and reveal the crop circle. We didn’t see it and we were working very close to researchers that night and we wondered whether something else was helping us out. But there are so many things like that. People put together mathematical formulas together from the crop circle and say, "well this circle tells us something we didn’t know, something new to science." Researchers have also looked with microscopes into the soil and found globules of metal which don’t appear outside of the circle. The metal is so pure that they think that some of it comes from space. Apparently, this meteoric metal dust is what affects compasses in the crop circle. It’s like, why would we choose a place in the field where that happened to be in the ground to create a certain crop circle around it? Or did it come out of space? Did it happen while we were making the circle or just after we left? Or how did it get there? So what’s attracting us to special places that then turn out to have a synchronistic meaning to someone else?”

(having an issue with the link to this, you'll have to google some of the text to read entire article)

So we have circle makers themselves reporting UAP's and other paranormal aspects

Many witnesses say strange lights seem to hover over the fields, emitting a loud drone as the circles are created. This has been observed for at least 350 years, according to a pamphlet published in Civil War times,

Why dont scavengers bother CM's ?
Why do compass's play up inside some CC's ?
Why does electrical equipment fail inside some CC's

There are aspects of this including the observations of human CC makers that imo dont fit the all done by humans , totally mundane, nothing to see here, scenario.

If we accept this witness testimony, including that of human CC makers, then we have a rabbit hole to enter, and one in which the spartacus gambit fits perfectly as a means of burying the more bizzare aspects and its implications........

 

[trainedobserver]

Why dont scavengers bother CM's ?

Valdez indicated the animals had been exposed to something highly toxic by his admonition to avoid any contact with the carcasses.

About Crop Circles. Crop Circle researchers have made claims of magnetic and electrical anomalies occurring in crop circles that people like Williams have made. My reaction to these things is "So what?" It seems like nothing but an unnecessary distraction with graffiti art and the disingenuous crop circle research community. Your mileage may vary.

 

[mike]

About Crop Circles. Crop Circle researchers have made claims of magnetic and electrical anomalies occurring in crop circles that people like Williams have made. My reaction to these things is "So what?" It seems like nothing but an unnecessary distraction with graffiti art and the disingenuous crop circle research community. Your mileage may vary.

With respect, to say "so what?" is to cherry pick the data to suit your own theory.

The very data you discard may be the most important in explaining the enigma for example

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/871607.stm

Four years ago I began measuring the EarthÎs magnetic field in and around crop circles. The project was initiated by on-going reports of anomalous magnetic phenomena such as spinning compass needles inside crop circles (witnessed by me amongst others during the 1980Îs), unusual failures of electronic equipment and radio frequency interference. The project enlarged findings of a German-based study conducted in the early 1990Îs.

The magnetometer survey included complex crop patterns as well as simple circles. Results showed a descriptive magnetic signature in a hand full of simple circles and basic geometric patterns. This signature consists of an increased magnetic reading which replicates the actual design of the crop pattern being measured, but occurs out of sync with the design by 3-5 degrees in a clockwise direction.

These findings may prove to be the basis of a natural mechanism involved in the creation of the formations or it may be a residual magnetic effect resulting from the creation of the crop circle. The model I have been developing, and will be collaborating on with further scientific input, is that the magnetic flux involved creates an electric current which effects the plants. The question of what causes the magnetic flux still remains.

There are numerous reports of electronic and mechanical equipment breaking down in crop circles. Cameras frequently malfunction, and even when they do work, the results may be overexposed, streaked, smeared, or entirely black. Video equipment is also very vulnerable, and often picks up severe interference. Battery draining is quite common, and even fresh power packs can die. Cell phones often fail to operate within a formation but sometimes work perfectly again if taken outside it. Magnetic compasses frequently behave erratically both inside crop formations and when flying directly over them. Witnesses sometimes report TV, cell phone, smoke alarm and security device interference or malfunctions during nights when a crop circle forms nearby. The night before the appearance of the 1991 Barbury Castle tetrahedron, residents in the nearby village of Broughton experienced a power blackout and many residents reported balls of coloured light flying above the field where the formation later manifested, along with a low rumbling noise

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1752.htm

And its not just researchers who have documented strange things

In 1988 while the BBC was filming in a newly formed crop circle, a warbling sound like the one Bryce and Arthur described 16 years before was recorded. Strange humming and trilling noises had been recorded in several other crop circles. The BBC's recorded sound was sent to NASA for analysis. NASA found that the sound was at 5.2 kHz and was machine made .Nothing is known about the origin of the sound. All that people do know is that the sound is heard in a crop circle.

We cant simply discard this evidence because it doesnt fit the all man made scenario

 

[trainedobserver]

With respect, to say "so what?" is to cherry pick the data to suit your own theory.

The very data you discard may be the most important in explaining the enigma for example

There is no enigma associated with Crop Circles worth investigating, or should I say, worth investing further for me. Like I've said before in our previous discussions on Crop Circles Mike, I have spent an inordinate amount of time (months over years) consuming everything "Crop Circle." I reached my conclusions honestly. I've mentioned before how at least two major crop circle researchers now freely admit they have been had and there is no real mystery in "who is making crop circles." If you want to look for a mystery in this yard art you are welcome to it. There are mounds of anecdotal evidence, mysterious lab reports, and the testimony of known pretenders, frauds, and disingenuous researchers to consider, or so has been my experience. I just don't see that Crop Circles are worth any further expenditure of my time (other than to point out they are a waste of time apparently) or that it has any bearing on the Unidentified Flying Object riddle as I care to approach it. Have at it though. I have considered the evidence available and don't need to constantly reevaluate it. I am reasonably confident that Crop Circles are a man-made phenomena around which a pseudo-religion and accompanying cottage industry has formed that supports a community largely composed of disingenuous, highly gullible, and unscientific crop circle researchers. Present company excluded of course.

 

[mike]

If you are refering to collin andrews he does not say they are all man made, he puts the figure at 80 percent.

Colin Andrews - 18th August 2000



Summary: An estimated 20% of crop circles show no evidence of being made by people, while 80% do. On Wednesday the 9th of August, I announced on national television and radio the outcome of an ongoing investigation into aspects of the crop circle mystery.

A Formal Statement by
Colin Andrews

An estimated 20% of crop circles show no evidence of being made by people, while 80% do.

On Wednesday the 9th of August, I announced on national television and radio the outcome of an ongoing investigation into aspects of the crop circle mystery.

Four years ago I began measuring the EarthÎs magnetic field in and around crop circles. The project was initiated by on-going reports of anomalous magnetic phenomena such as spinning compass needles inside crop circles (witnessed by me amongst others during the 1980Îs), unusual failures of electronic equipment and radio frequency interference. The project enlarged findings of a German-based study conducted in the early 1990Îs.

The magnetometer survey included complex crop patterns as well as simple circles. Results showed a descriptive magnetic signature in a hand full of simple circles and basic geometric patterns. This signature consists of an increased magnetic reading which replicates the actual design of the crop pattern being measured, but occurs out of sync with the design by 3-5 degrees in a clockwise direction.

These findings may prove to be the basis of a natural mechanism involved in the creation of the formations or it may be a residual magnetic effect resulting from the creation of the crop circle. The model I have been developing, and will be collaborating on with further scientific input, is that the magnetic flux involved creates an electric current which effects the plants. The question of what causes the magnetic flux still remains.

And again magnetometer data doesnt fit the all man made scenario

Nor have you yet addressed the testimony of the CC makers themselves regarding strange phenomena they have seen
Whats the explanation for this stuff
http://circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html

Whilst making what was at the time the most ambitious crop circle ever attempted Julian Richardson and his team were witness to a strange orange ball of light.

John Lundberg recalls several anomalies he and others witnessed whilst out making circles in Wiltshire.

Rod Dickinson describes how he inadvertently photographed a small white disk in 1991

There is clearly more to this than people with planks, whats the explanation for what the circle makers themselves have reported ?

 

[mike]

Award winning film-maker Terje Toftenes who made the documentary "Crop Circles: Crossovers From Another Dimension" appeared unexpectedly via Skype on Circlemakers TV during the show this week (May 18th, 2011).
Terje told the show host Matthew Williams that he became interested and involved in crop circles in 2002 and had been convinced they were not made by people. His film received awards but now he felt foolish and embarrassed he said but went on the congratulate the people making them because they had made such a good job of them. He told Matthew that he thought it was time for the truth about all this to be told and went on to say that he was equally convinced now that there were also strange things happening around the circles.

By Colin Andrews
May 20, 2011


Circlemakers TV
Most people who have followed this subject know that I came to this conclusion myself eleven years ago and announced it on BBC television during 2000. I revealed the outcome of a two year investigation specifically into people making crop circles and rounded up the figures that showed then that around 80% of crop circles in England during 1999 and 2000 were man made. That announcement resulted in me being ostracized by numerous well known researchers and indeed media people like Terje and filmmaker Suzanne Taylor themselves. I received hate mail and public hanging by certain famous people. Im pleased to say since my findings have been born out to be accurate, many now acknowledge this, in fact I have since received awards myself for that landmark work. My research website is a top ranked site with thousands of visitors a day - hundreds from the past who did not like what I had to say back in 2000 but who now can see the value of
working with facts rather than preset beliefs.

What we all know is that when the social environment in any subject is established, in this case by a small group who closed ranks to convey that 'crop circles are real', breaking ranks marginalises you. Its all part of their plan.
These social engineers know that to allow this to change would weaken the myth that feeds sales of books, radio and TV programs etc, that they have an interest in. It takes courage to set out a new marker, a marker that isn't so good for business or those egos. To take on new ground you have to know your inner truth and have supportive friends and or family as I have and be focuses enough to keep at it - The search for truth is never going to be easy. I take my hat off to Terje for doing so and also to Matthew Williams at Circlemakers TV for
communicating this. Matthew was the first person who made circles to offer to me what was going on. Beyond the act of making them though, I knew there was something else less easily explained away, i.e. circles I had seen in distant lands and also in England, that were not made by 3 feet long boards and also many unexplained supernatural events directly associated with crop circles - that for another day.

I do not hold any bad feelings towards Terje Toftenes for going along with loudly vocal but small group who act as the social engineers for this subject. A group size you can now count on two hands but who try desperately to keep alive the idea that most crop circles are not man-made. At this stage in the research, anyone doing a reasonable job of investigating the circles knows the score. The hard core proponents of the myth that most crop circles are real are headed by researcher Michael Glickman, closely followed by Linda Moulton Howe,
Francine Blake and filmmaker Suzanne Taylor (*1 & *2 Below also her radio interview 2009). There are others and they know who they are, who are refusing to acknowledge the truth and are propping up an industry from which they receive healthy sales from products they produce.

As the coming weeks arrive and events unfold in the fields and more strange things happen to researchers and human circlemakers we will begin to see that out of the misty, murky past will be seen the true prize in it all. There will be though a small group who have knowingly fooled others for personal gain who will be seen for who and what they are but most importantly an extraordinary mystery, more intriguing and significant than we ever expected will consolidate itself - an intelligent process of which we are but part will become more clear. The crop circle phenomenon is not going away because more people are getting smart and seeing the truth, its about to take a new leap forward into the paranormal because that is what was there to be
seen from the beginning, but lost in the divisions of the time. This time we will ALL be players, and I believe some already know this.


As I said back in 2000, the crop circle study will finish up looking into consciousness - thats where its at.

This is where Colin andrews and Terje Toftenes are as at 2011, they acknowledge the vast bulk of the CC's are man made hoax's, but that there is also a smaller element of high strangeness/supernatural.

This is entirely consistent with the spartacus gambit hypothesis.
That human agents are trying to bury the paranormal reality with fluff

To use an analogy

Lets say 80 percent of cartier watches on the market are cheap chinese fakes, That does not then make the hypothesis that there are no genuine cartier watches in the world correct.
Both Andrews and Toftenes have admitted they bought fakes thinking they were real, they acknowledge the majority of these watches are fake, but they have not at any stage said there are no real cartier's, that they are ALL fakes.
On the contrary they have said the majority are fake, that they have "bought" some of them thinking they are real, but that there remains a small percentage of cases that are still unexplained by the prank with a plank hypothesis.
Like wise Valdez cannot claim all CM's are fakes, since he has not studied each and every case, nor has he found evidence of an obscure govt agency in each and every case.
The honest conclusion that can be drawn from his research is he has found some fake CM's, thats not empirically consistent with the all CM's are Man Made hypothesis.

So we have a large number of documented fake CC's, we have Valdez's documented fake CM's.
This data is in no way consistant with the ALL cases are man made scenario, but 100 percent consistant with the spartacus gambit scenario.

We have some evidence MI5 and the CIA are involved with the fake CC's, and Valdez's assertion an obscure govt agency is involved with fake CM's................

Why are Govt agencys faking CC's and CM's........

Again the answer that fits all the data is the spartacus gambit.

Why ?

Well i think Robert Hulses says it well

This message is at once wonderful and terrifying.The daunting reality which
genuine crop formations convey is the reason why so many of us have shied away
from the truth which has been staring us in the face for so long.This is the reason
why so many people have been happy to accept with open arms,the confusion,
brought about by hoaxed formations. It is one thing to stand in a crop circle, safe in
the feeling that there is a chance at least, that it was created by people with
boards and ropes. It is quite another,to stand alone in the circle, and know with
absolute certainty, that it was created by visitors to this world, using technology
which we have probably not even dreamed about yet.

The secret arms of governments have known these facts for many years. Perhaps
the main reason why they have striven to debunk the genuine crop circles is that if
they were accepted as having been created by an extraterrestrial civilisation, then
all the other aspects of ufology would automatically become acceptable. The ufo
sightings, the abductions and the animal mutilations would instantly become so
much more difficult to laugh off.

http://www.colinandrews.net/HiddenTruthDVD.html

 

[trainedobserver]

Well, what can I say Mike? "I came, I saw, I balked." Let me clarify. When I say Crop Circles I mean Complex Crop Circles vs. non-complex impressions, or saucer nests.

Your analogy betrays a certain prejudice my friend. Your use of the word fake to differentiate between known human created Crop Circles, suspected human Cattle Mutilations, and those you believe to created by beings from another planet indicates a definite predisposition which may be blinding you to the truth.

The truth behind Complex Crop Circles, as I have found it at least, is simply this: The modern Crop Circle fad was started by two artists mimicking what are known as saucer nests. It is the product of an artist's mentality rather than that of a hoaxer's. I think that is an important distinction and speaks to the dynamic between the research community and the makers themselves. But that is a whole other conversation. This new art form caught on and crop circles began being made by those very people who were drawn to them. Some who were drawn by the notion that they were other-worldly discovered that they were in fact man made and began making them themselves. A community of vocal researchers and silent makers developed. Many of these researchers consistently misrepresent the phenomena for their own reasons. Now we see the community undergoing some upheaval as makers and ex-makers like Williams and others come forward and present real evidence that the Complex Crop Circles that many of these researchers have claimed to be of extraterritorial origin to be in fact man-made.

Do weird things happen in fields at night while clandestinely making destructive graffiti on someone else's property? I have no doubt in mind. Do I want to wade through all the horse manure to figure out what might be real and what might not? While some accounts are entertaining and informative, just listen to Williams Crop Circle TV show for example, they do not present to me any real connection between Complex Crop Circles and UFOs except in a peripheral manner. I have seen absolutely nothing to make me believe that whatever is behind UFOs is destroying some poor working person's living in an attempt to communicate with the human race. I guess the message is, "Hey, we don't care if you eat or not, raise your consciousness by lookin at my pretty picture!"

To believe that the government runs around making yard art and butchering animals just to keep people from believing that real aliens are doing it is implausible for so many reasons. You have budget, personnel, and resource considerations that make such operations unlikely to say the least not to mean that the total failure of such a strategy could be easily foreseen. Having said that though, we must realize that psychological warfare is something that is practiced and the UFO/paranormal/conspiracy community has historically been both an asset pool and a proving ground for the Intelligence agencies of many nations. This still goes on believe it or not. The thing is this though, the alien thing is just something in their toolkit, it isn't a cause.

Also, is there any evidence that the Spartacus gambit as you put it, is anything more than the creation of Howard Fast and Stanley Kubrick?

 

[mike]

Actually the prejudice is in your approach imo

The correct way to research the subject is to look at ALL the data and formulate a hypothesis that encompases the totallity of that evidence.
You on the other hand have formulated an answer first, ie they are all man made, and have then selectively worked through the data, cherry picking and inflating the importance of that which supports your predisposition.
You discard with "so what ?" data that doesnt, you pass off as "horse manure" data that doesnt fit with your hypothesis.
Your conclusion is a round hole, the data a square peg, to make them fit you have to shave off and discard the data that is not consistant with your conclusion.
Youve selectively quoted out of context, researchers like Andrews and Toftenes

Yes they have changed their views
Yes they admit they have "been had"
Yes they now say the majority, rather than the minority are hoax's

But you convienently shave off the testimony that says they also believe a small fraction remain non man made and paranormal in nature.

To believe that the government runs around making yard art and butchering animals just to keep people from believing that real aliens are doing it is implausible for so many reasons. You have budget, personnel, and resource considerations that make such operations unlikely

And yet according to Valdez, an obscure govt agency has done just that................

Im sorry trained but the pattern is very clear, you are not attempting to reconcile the totality of the data with the modus operandi of an open minded researcher, rather you are doing it backwards formulating a hypothesis and then cherry picking the data that fits and discarding that which doesnt, thats the MO of a closed minded debunker.

The data does contain reference after reference to equipment malfunction in some circles
The BBC had equipment issues and recorded odd trilling sounds



You need to discard this data because a prank with a plank couldnt cause this effect.


The all man made hypothesis cant explain this data.
The spartacus gambit hypothesis can

The AMMH needs to discard the data regarding equipment failure and magnetic anomalys, it needs to discard the testimony of human circlemakers in regards to paranormal activity while they make their circles, it needs to selectively quote and discard the testimony of andrews and toftenes, that a small percentage remain paranormal and unexplained.

The SGH can unify all the data with having to discard any of it.

It can embrace the testimony of the circlemakers
It can embrace the testimony of valdez
And it can reconcile that with the paranormal data that is part and parcel of the puzzle

Ive never claimed "aliens" are doing it as a concrete cold fact as you Erroneously claim.

and those you believe to created by beings from another planet indicates a definite predisposition which may be blinding you to the truth.

Nor does andrews what he says is

Four years ago I began measuring the EarthÎs magnetic field in and around crop circles. The project was initiated by on-going reports of anomalous magnetic phenomena such as spinning compass needles inside crop circles (witnessed by me amongst others during the 1980Îs), unusual failures of electronic equipment and radio frequency interference. The project enlarged findings of a German-based study conducted in the early 1990Îs.

The magnetometer survey included complex crop patterns as well as simple circles. Results showed a descriptive magnetic signature in a hand full of simple circles and basic geometric patterns. This signature consists of an increased magnetic reading which replicates the actual design of the crop pattern being measured, but occurs out of sync with the design by 3-5 degrees in a clockwise direction.

These findings may prove to be the basis of a natural mechanism involved in the creation of the formations or it may be a residual magnetic effect resulting from the creation of the crop circle. The model I have been developing, and will be collaborating on with further scientific input, is that the magnetic flux involved creates an electric current which effects the plants. The question of what causes the magnetic flux still remains.

Again data that must be discarded in the AMMH since a prank with a plank cant explain that.

The predisposition and prejudice is yours, you happily accept circlemakers.org as proof of your AMMH, but discard as horse manure this link from their own site

http://circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html

Its not that you dont have the time, to wade through this so called manure, its that you dont have the inclination, because the data is inconsistant with your predisposed answer.
Thus it must be discarded as manure.
Again you have to cherry pick the data from this site, keeping the core of the data which is clearly that these people make crop circles. but shaving off as manure the weird shit in order to make the square peg fit your preconceived round hole



Your last question is pure distraction, The gestalt of the spartacus gambit is simply this.
Someone is looking for the "real" Spartacus, to hide the real spartacus numerous others step forth and pretend to be the real spartacus, thus the real spartacus gets hidden by the numerous pretenders.