My 'UFO' sighting/My first post!

[trainedobserver]

You may be right. ...Or perhaps this statement is one grand assumption based on a perspective gathered from one tiny parcel of the Kosmos.

My point is just this. Any other perspective is purely speculative and imaginary. The lessons of nature (of which all of human history is a part) repeatedly assert themselves as predominate to human speculation. You can imagine that there is some other order in the universe but I think you will be hard pressed to find it. Also, my use of the word spirituality was meant to imply the deepest values and meanings by which people live and not an aspect of some invisible ethereal realm. Certainly no one is going to make the argument that human technological advancement is somehow connected to the quality of human behavior or any philosophy governing the same are they? People seem ready to assume that advanced techological civilizations would somehow by default possess and adhere to the noblest of ideals (all human ideals btw) and the pursuit of truth (where everybody discovers all you need is love) when there is no reason whatsoever to think so other than wishful thinking. In fact I'm saying everything we know tells us that will most likely not be the case. Yeah its a limited time-space human perspective. Until such time some non-human successfully communicates its perspective to us, its the only one we have access to.

 

[plumbbob12]

Yes, I am not that honest. I even coast through stop signs at times. I have even been known to smoke some illegal substances at times. Go figure, I am human. And do not pretend to be Christ. If you are, good for you. Gives me hope.
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[Hotkafka]

People seem ready to assume that advanced techological civilizations would somehow by default possess and adhere to the noblest of ideals (all human ideals btw) and the pursuit of truth (where everybody discovers all you need is love) when there is no reason whatsoever to think so other than wishful thinking.

This seems to be at the core of your message, and one that gets repackaged here with regularity. "Nature is relentless and brutal and eager to eat your babies if left unguarded." And Morality, Justice, Truth, Spirituality and other such ghostly fantasies are nothing more than the product of frisky chemicals, constructs used to shore up the levy in the face of this viral unforgiving force. And despite all our longings, no amount of whining or "wishing" could ever prove that these principles translate anywhere else beyond the human brain. While this is an easy enough point to argue, and it appears quite sensible on the surface from the window of our cozy little paradigm of pluralism, I think I would have to say I'm not quite as convinced as you that there doesn't exist the tiniest of possibilities that our reality just may be informed by such Meta principles (think Platonic forms)... And sure, you can consistently sweep aside such possibilities with snarky aphorisms which include such well worn chestnuts as "wishful thinking," what I think that really stands out is your tireless devotion to belittling those whom harbor the space for such ungrounded concepts, empirically, scientifically devoid concepts which may include a broader view of reality and which may include such ideals as faith, hope and (gasp) even Universal love. Maybe I'm way off base here, and you really are only doing your best to prepare and serve the hopelessly naive amongst us (for the possible, if not inevitable, invasion from the swarms of bloodless, soulless, morally vacuous space vampires), but it seems you wear this cape as if it is your sworn duty. In any case, you do it well. Leaping small minds with single bounds. X-ray eyes.

Certainly no one is going to make the argument that human technological advancement is somehow connected to the quality of human behavior or any philosophy governing the same are they?

Not exactly human behavior -but, yeah, interior growth informing external advancement - Teilhard De Chardin, Spinoza, and Wilber, just to name a few, have had the audacity to imply such a notion, as well a slew of other such hopelessly mindless buffoons (i.e. spiritual philosophers) such as Sri Auribindo.

 

[softbeard]

Yes, I am not that honest. I even coast through stop signs at times. I have even been known to smoke some illegal substances at times. Go figure, I am human. And do not pretend to be Christ. If you are, good for you. Gives me hope.

Ha-Ha!Cool. Good for you. I hate holier-than-thou comments.
Ok, Plumbob, at least rate the damn movie. Is it even worth 'streaming'?

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------

While this is an easy enough point to argue, and it appears quite sensible on the surface from the window of our cozy little paradigm of pluralism, I think I would have to say I'm not quite as convinced as you that there doesn't exist the tiniest of possibilities that our reality just may be informed by such Meta principles (think Platonic forms)...

Yes, Hotkafka, I agree. In my opinion, there are indeed logical arguments that empathy and symbiosis may be universal. Not just tied to the human/mammalian psyche. However, I feel it is important to seriously look at the counter-argument, as trained observer does. Do not belittle/dismiss the counter-argument without logical analysis. Do not quickly assume the counter-argument is formed solely out of spite.

 

[plumbbob12]

Softbeard: The move is good if one likes the war movie. It’s basically a bunch of Marines who single handily find a way to disable all the flying drones by blowing up the "mother ship". In the end, they even say; "send out the information to all the military bases in the world how to bring these things down". I think they just took Independence Day, and re-did some of the effects, with a smattering of District 9 creatures, complete with the hand weapon that is attached to their arms. Out of a rating from 1 to ten butt probes, I would give it half a digit. Cheers

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Ha-Ha!Cool. Good for you. I hate holier-than-thou comments.
Ok, Plumbob, at least rate the damn movie. Is it even worth 'streaming'?

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------


Yes, Hotkafka, I agree. In my opinion, there are indeed logical arguments that empathy and symbiosis may be universal. Not just tied to the human/mammalian psyche. However, I feel it is important to seriously look at the counter-argument, as trained observer does. Do not belittle/dismiss the counter-argument without logical analysis. Do not quickly assume the counter-argument is formed solely out of spite.

I wasn't saying it to be holier than though - just making an observation.

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

Yes, I am not that honest. I even coast through stop signs at times. I have even been known to smoke some illegal substances at times. Go figure, I am human. And do not pretend to be Christ. If you are, good for you. Gives me hope.
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I guess I prefer to watch my movies legally. Good for you if you have no qualms about stealing stuff. And who says you need to be religious to have morals!

 

[trainedobserver]

This seems to be at the core of your message, and one that gets repackaged here with regularity. "Nature is relentless and brutal and eager to eat your babies if left unguarded." And Morality, Justice, Truth, Spirituality and other such ghostly fantasies are nothing more than the product of frisky chemicals, constructs used to shore up the levy in the face of this viral unforgiving force. And despite all our longings, no amount of whining or "wishing" could ever prove that these principles translate anywhere else beyond the human brain.

.

That's close. I'd reword it slightly: The universe is a hostile, and indifferent place in which human concepts such as morality, justice, spirituality along with the entirety of our science only applies within the confines of human experience which is itself an infinitesimal island in the infinite ocean of space/time. In my mind, realizing that we don't live in a human-centric universe is a key to understanding this UFO and paranormal business ...not that I claim to understand it. I think that's basically where I'm coming from in my disenchanted fatalistic humanistic manner of speaking.

...what I think that really stands out is your tireless devotion to belittling those whom harbor the space for such ungrounded concepts, empirically, scientifically devoid concepts which may include a broader view of reality and which may include such ideals as faith, hope and (gasp) even Universal love.

I'm sorry about that then. It is not my intention to belittle anyone. I think out loud here. Many of the concepts I now frown upon I once highly revered. So I am not immune from my own criticism nor is the irony of my present position on many of these issues wasted on me.

To clarify, I am all about such ideals as hope and Universal love. I just hold no hope for any realization of them beyond the confines of normal human existence. I think it is a mistake to assume that some other non-human intelligence would evolve the same set of morals, universe-views, science or anything else that humans have. Like I've said many times here, we can hope for the best but we should probably prepare ourselves for something less than that.

Not exactly human behavior -but, yeah, interior growth informing external advancement - Teilhard De Chardin, Spinoza, and Wilber, just to name a few, have had the audacity to imply such a notion, as well a slew of other such hopelessly mindless buffoons (i.e. spiritual philosophers) such as Sri Auribindo.

Well I'd just say look at history and what has actually happened. While that does occur, where humanitarian concerns spur technological advancement, it seems that the human motivators of exploration, greed, and conflict have had more to do with technological leaps than anything. But like most things it gets down to the personal motivations for the individuals working to create these things.

I appreciate the feedback. I'll try to temper my postings accordingly.

 

[Hotkafka]

Yes, Hotkafka, I agree. In my opinion, there are indeed logical arguments that empathy and symbiosis may be universal. Not just tied to the human/mammalian psyche. However, I feel it is important to seriously look at the counter-argument, as trained observer does. Do not belittle/dismiss the counter-argument without logical analysis. Do not quickly assume the counter-argument is formed solely out of spite.

Mine was the counter argument -and a reaction to the passive-aggressive tactics that T.O. often employs. I have nothing against the guy, matter of fact, I often find him one of the more cogent and downright funny posters on the forum. ...But there comes a time that the inferred superiority needs to be put in check.

 

[tyder001]

I also find TO to be a very engaging and at times humorous poster.So I'm certainly not taking a shot. We have been known to disagree and even pm our disagreement while remaning cordial. The thing is we are all flying by the seat of our pants through this lifetime. I find people who try to use the bible as a science book or to hold all the truth in the universe (which the bible itself doesn't actually claim) or a archeology book and although some of the archeology does prove true some doesn't. I find people tend to do the same thing with science. Trying to make a purely concrete "fact" fit a universal truth as if it were an entity to itself (which good scientist don't claim.) I don't want to jettison religion because of the fanaticism of people (trust me they would find another reason to be fanatical if religion were not handy to em) I don't want to turn my back on science and medical and intellectual truth just because a few people tell me I have to "choose" between my hope,spirit and being or a bleak materialistic view of the world. It's a lie. I've known really good doctors and counselors and other scientist who absolutely beleive in spritual matters. I've known really good and honest people who are agnostic and even atheistic. I do beliveve there is a difference in truth and lies. I just don't think things are as simple as some folks would like em to be. That's one reason I keep coming back to this forum. It challenges me and is one of the things that causes me to stay alert to lazy thinking. Not the only thing but it's pretty good sounding board for the most part.

 

[softbeard]

a reaction to the passive-aggressive tactics that T.O. often employs. I have nothing against the guy, matter of fact, I often find him one of the more cogent and downright funny posters on the forum. ...But there comes a time that the inferred superiority needs to be put in check.

Yes, but, I feel it is important not to dismiss the argument that 'empathy and symbiosis may not be universal' out of hand.

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

use the bible as a science book or to hold all the truth in the universe (which the bible itself doesn't actually claim) or a archeology book and although some of the archeology does prove true some doesn't. I find people tend to do the same thing with science. Trying to make a purely concrete "fact" fit a universal truth as if it were an entity to itself (which good scientist don't claim.)

I agree.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I've known really good and honest people who are agnostic and even atheistic.

That makes it sound like most atheists are not really good honest people.
It just sounds strange to me.

 

[trainedobserver]

But there comes a time that the inferred superiority needs to be put in check.

I hate I come across like that. I think I understand why you are saying it. I often word things as though I know them beyond any shadow of a doubt. I of course do not.

I think the argument that we cannot and should not project the human perception and experience of the universe on some as yet unknown and in some cases unknowable entities or societies is a good one though. There seems to be no real reason to do so that I have found at least, beyond our hopefulness that we will see something else like ourselves out there. I look at things like the fact that the basic experience and notion of light and dark are purely aspects created within a conscious brain and think, "If these things do not have any reality beyond the brain/mind systems that perceives them, then how do more complex ideas such as love, empathy, spirituality, and so forth exist outside of human experience?" Until some real communication occurs with other species, it is purely speculative which brain/mind systems (dogs, cats, dolphins, etc.) replicate these human experiences. I agree many animals appear to do exactly that. Do they all though? Would something that evolved on another world or dimension share them? Would an alien intelligent insect or some other radically different type of organism share them? That's what I'm trying to get at. I'm not assuming I'm right or that you are necessarily wrong, I just think its worth considering.

 

[softbeard]

no qualms about stealing stuff

It is not exactly 'stealing stuff'. Digital copying and trademark violations are not the same as physical theft. But that argument has been played out on many, many forums, many, many times. Hopefully it won't start up here too.

 

[tyder001]

That makes it sound like most atheists are not really good honest people.
It just sounds strange to me.

O.k. Angelo Just a for you kid! Most atheist and agnostics are good and honest people just like most Christians and Buddist and others are. Just looking for personal meaning and growth in a world that is at times alien and harsh and at times beautiful and full of hope. Most people are more than simply labels such as good or evil, black or white, Chrisitan or Athiest, Hindu or Muslim. I think many (including a good friend of mine) agostics tend to be people I am comfortable talking to and discussing the meaning of life with. I think many (including a good friend of mine) Christians are there with a prayer and a shoulder when ya need em. I would never, ever base my choice of a friend on their religion or on their degree or letters after their name. I personally truly bleive that life is meaningful and not a random byproduct of evolution. However, my only "religion" is to treat people the way I would like to be treated. So, to my forum friends and fellow travelers Angelo and TO who are so very proud of their secular worldview I say thanks for all the civil conversations and I hope I have not caused offense by my constant challenging or at least questioning of your way of looking at life. I take no offense at your questioning of mine.


The thing you would not have done to you...Do not do to another...The Buddha.

Treat others as you would like to be treated..The Christ

Some people call me the gangster of love....Steve Miller. 8)

 

[Angel of Ioren]

It is not exactly 'stealing stuff'. Digital copying and trademark violations are not the same as physical theft. But that argument has been played out on many, many forums, many, many times. Hopefully it won't start up here too.

Well, I disagree, as do many others. But it is a very gray area. For example, I have no problems torrenting a TV show I have missed because of a PVR glitch or because the president interrupted it or because of a blackout. In my mind, I've paid for the show through cable. However, downloading a movie (or streaming it) that is fresh in theaters is stealing. Same thing with people that pirate games. You want to use something that someone else created, pay for it.

 

[tyder001]

But, some books are older and some movies are older. Actually, in my area (The Southeastern U.S.) Netflix and Hulu and others provide safe legal streaming movies with the price of membership. I have been known to borrow a dvd from the library and copy it or from a friend so I don't have a problem getting an old Stones album on 4shared. Or even an older Stephen King book (but that may be because I have absolutely bought at least one copy of all of them he has published.) I have also no problem with older books that are no longer in print such as the book called Penatration by Ingo Swann that some genius on Amazon wanted to sell for around $500 just because it was out of print. Anyway, it's a new world and the music and publishing and gaming industry will adapt. They always do.

 

[softbeard]

Uh-oh. Looks like I've started something. Oops.

 

[tyder001]

Shhhhhh Tiptoes out of room. :redface: I agree I don't want to cause that can of worms to get going. Closes door softly.

Hey, Look over there...it's a U.F.O.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Uh-oh. Looks like I've started something. Oops.

Don't worry - it happens. Back to the topic at hand. No more discussion about copyright.

Thanks.

 

[Ron Collins]

It is not exactly 'stealing stuff'. Digital copying and trademark violations are not the same as physical theft. But that argument has been played out on many, many forums, many, many times. Hopefully it won't start up here too.

Bullshit! Intellectual property is the same as physical property. Try telling that to a judge.

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------

Don't worry - it happens. Back to the topic at hand. No more discussion about copyright.

Thanks.

Sorry, I hadn't read this when I responded.