Nazi UFOs

[Bob Watson]

 

[dyingsun]

As a german here, none of that crap did actually happen..I dig the 'Lore ' though.

 

[Polterwurst]

I just picked up Annie Jacobsen's operation paperclip and have yet to start reading it. I did see her at a signing at the santa monica library a couple of months back when the book just came out and she said something that revolted me but sounded all too likely...and probably was known and suspected by many here...when it came to meting out justice for the Nazi regime a clear distinction was made between the military participants who had little to offer us ( after all, they "lost the war" so what was there to be gained by giving pardons to the generals and such. their strategy was a failure and anything that could be fruitful could have easily been ascertained ) and the scientists who had everything to offer us.

Sorry, but that theory is nonsense IMO. Hitler's megalomaniac "strategy" to conquer the world was a failure, not that of the military. If he had listened to his generals, they would have stopped after Poland, Austria and the french "WW I reparation" regions and contented themselves with securing the borders. It's very likely that England and America wouldn't have got involved at that point.

And I'm afraid there's a really "good" chance I'd be living in a fricking Nazi state even today if he'd done so. Although probably this regime either would have gone the way the Soviet one did by now or, more likely, the two of them would have started a nuclear war at some point which would have turned Europe into a radioactive wasteland. (Jeez, it hurts the brain trying to think that through).

If the Kammler story is right, that alone shows that they wouldn't only have wanted scientists. He might have been head of the secret weapons development, but he wasn't a scientist himself, but purely a military man. After all, the military was "testing" the "toys of mass murder and destruction" the scientists had come up with. Kammler an his SS cronies used them to massacre thousands of people. That "experience" surely would have come in handy to some callous "end justifies means" types. I think I have to vomit.

 

[Bob Watson]

this one is 100% true..

 

[boomerang]

Here is some food for thought on this subject. Hubertus Strughold was a paperclip alumni who did much of his work at Randolph and Brooks AFB in San Antonio. His specialty was human aerospace physiology. I met him briefly years ago and he was outwardly quite charming. I suspect quite a few of these characters had ample charisma.

Strughold was, for many decades, a venerated figure in the American Air Force and aerospace community. Awards were erected and parts of buildings were named after him at Randolph. Not long after he passed away, he was then deemed a war criminal based on evidence that he had participated in cruel experiments involving unwilling test subjects during the war. I'm not sure exactly where the truth lay. But I'm inclined to think he was given a "get out of jail" card at some level. It's not just imagination that weird things transpired after the war.

Nick Cook claims that Hans Kammler, unlike many others, was not tried for war crimes in absentia at Nuremberg. If true, this alone would be very strange.

 

[marduk]

Um, no. Former Nazis did not give the Allies the A-bomb.

The US with support from England and Canada gave the Allies the A-bomb. It took 4 years, and cost $2B.
Manhattan Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nazis had no "Bell." The whole account rests on one person's verbal story. Period. Farrel, etc is completely full of garbage here.

"Witkowski wrote that he first discovered the existence of Die Glocke by reading transcripts from an interrogation of former Nazi SS Officer Jakob Sporrenberg. According to Witkowski, he was shown the allegedly classified transcripts in August 1997 by an unnamed Polish intelligence contact who said he had access to Polish government documents regarding Nazi secret weapons."​

Die Glocke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nazis had no "flying discs." The only thing that was ever found were drawings, and they were purely non-exotic propulsion variants of the Horton 229.

Yes, Paperclip brought back rocket scientists which gave us both the capability of going to the moon and building ICBMs. These are all outgrowths of non-exotic chemical rocketry and jet propulsion.

This whole area infuriates me for two reasons:

1. It devalues all the great work by Allied scientists during the war.
2. It plays into the Nazi racist "superman" propaganda that wants to posit that they were much, much smarter than the rest of the world. BS.

 

[marduk]

I'll grant one thing though: Iron Sky was awesome.

 

[Bob Watson]

One thing. .Germany had the chance to win. Jet tech and atomic bombs were in hitlers reach. But blinded by his mania.hitler never funded them.and so he lost. Becuse he would not listen to anyone! Hitler greatest enemy was hitler.

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[marduk]

One thing. .Germany had the chance to win. Jet tech and atomic bombs were in hitlers reach. But blinded by his mania.hitler never funded them.and so he lost. Becuse he would not listen to anyone! Hitler greatest enemy was hitler.

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Disagree.

#1 Germany never really had the chance to win against the world, which was the Reich's stated objective. Large parts of Europe for a time, sure. But never the world. Even if they would have stopped in Europe, subjugation of humanity probably isn't feasible in their fascist sense. The western world can't even hold onto Afghanistan. Even after France infamously surrendered, the Resistance harried them to no end, and the amount of intel gathered during the Nazi occupation of France aided the Allies significantly. One might argue that the French government surrendered in name only, and the populace never did.

#2 They had jets. Great. The Allies shot down Messershmits and could have replicated them. They didn't... because they could mass produce propeller planes in far, far greater numbers than Germany could ever produce jets. One ME-262 could probably take down several Spitfires, but not several dozen.

#3 They were far, far away from having atomic weapons. Their scientists lacked the theoretical underpinnings of fission as an explosive device, and even if they did, they didn't have access to the amount of fissile material that would have given them the capability. Why do you think Canada was so instrumental in the Manhattan project? Uranium. Lots and lots and lots of Uranium, of which 0.7% is U-235. Much of it came from the Great Bear region in British Columbia.

#4 A core problem with the Reich is that they over-funded the wunderwaffe, not under-funded it. They could have had a massive build up of surface sea vessels, but didn't. They could have massively built up their conventional propellor air fleet, but didn't -- they favoured expensive jets and buzz bombs that did little damage. They could have built up their conventional light tank infantry, but didn't because they favoured massive, slower, expensive tanks. Etc.

#5 They lacked the manpower to even consider taking over North America or Asia. Not even close. Russia was a fool's errand, and next up would have been China.

They did massive damage to the world, but the whole "Nazis nearly ruled the world" meme is really unfounded in reality.

As is Hitler's personal control of the Nazi party, or the Nazi party of the German war machine, or their technical ability, or manpower, or ability to project their force globally.

 

[Bob Watson]

If Germany had stopped there was one nation that stood agenst them. England. The only way they would have won was a reverse D day. But let's assume they did that. When America entered the war the liberation of England would be 1st up. The war would have ended maybe 2 years later. Or sooner. Keep in mind that the 1st target of the atomic bombs was Berlin.

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[marduk]

If Germany had stopped there was one nation that stood agenst them. England. The only way they would have won was a reverse D day. But let's assume they did that. When America entered the war the liberation of England would be 1st up. The war would have ended maybe 2 years later. Or sooner. Keep in mind that the 1st target of the atomic bombs was Berlin.

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In Europe, maybe.

And how long before Europe shrugged them off on their own?

The standing German army was roughly 2 million in 1945.

The population of Europe at that time was just over half a billion people; and they had already started to see backlash from their own population for the fascist policies.

 

[Polterwurst]

One ME-262 could probably take down several Spitfires, but not several dozen.

I've heard the german pilots were having trouble adjusting to the unprecedented velocities, and often had already swept past the targets before having their guns ready. They were used to much slower flying. The same would of course have been true for allied pilots, so why waste time training for a new technology that was years away from being mastered.

Their scientists lacked the theoretical underpinnings of fission as an explosive device, and even if they did, they didn't have access to the amount of fissile material that would have given them the capability.

I thought Heisenberg had been working on that? Surely he would have had the theoretical underpinnings?

Getting the uranium was probably one reason Hitler wanted to subjugate Russia.

It's obvious that the Nazis would have really wanted an a-bomb and the "uranium projects" are a fact. I still think that the Bell, if it did exist, could have been a weapons or maybe a reactor prototype.

German nuclear energy project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They did massive damage to the world, but the whole "Nazis nearly ruled the world" meme is really unfounded in reality.

Absolutely. But I'm convinced there would have been a longer term Nazi regime ruling germany if they had stopped the expansion war when appeasement policy was still around. I don't know if I would have grown up having to wear a brown school uniform and pledging my life to Führer and Vaterland every morning, but they could have lasted longer, even with the concentration camps. It's possible that they could have fooled the rest of the world about the real purpose of these a while longer. I often wonder what would have happened if one of the many attempts at Hitler's life had succeeded and someone more "moderate" had taken over, maybe then I'd still be living the nightmare. But then of course, Nazi's don't do moderate. They're all fanatic psychopaths.

 

[Bob Watson]

Correct! Hitlers own general's were actively trying to remove him. It was only a matter of time before he had a civil war on his hands. As someone who is working on a book on counter factual senerio I find what ifs fascinating.

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[Bob Watson]

One thing if you wish to discuss my ideas for my book I will open a thread or send me a private.

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[marduk]

Good stuff on Heisenberg here:

Digging deep into the archival record among formerly secret technical reports, Rose establishes that Heisenberg never overcame certain misconceptions about nuclear fission, and as a result the German leaders never pushed for atomic weapons. In fact, Heisenberg never had to face the moral problem of whether he should design a bomb for the Nazi regime. Only when he and his colleagues were interned in England and heard about Hiroshima did Heisenberg realize that his calculations were wrong. He began at once to construct an image of himself as a "pure" scientist who could have built a bomb but chose to work on reactor design instead. This was fiction, as Rose demonstrates: in reality, Heisenberg blindly supported and justified the cause of German victory. The question of why he did, and why he misrepresented himself afterwards, is answered through Rose's subtle analysis of German mentality and the scientists' problems of delusion and self-delusion.

Heisenberg and the Nazi Atomic Bomb Project, 1939-1945 - Paul Lawrence Rose - Paperback - University of California Press
​

Common thinking is that they weren't even close.

 

[Polterwurst]

As someone who is working on a book on counter factual senerio I find what ifs fascinating.

You mean like an alternative history novel, as in "Fatherland"? And the premise has to do with WW II? IMO "what ifs" are nothing but speculation, so they are only interesting as entertainment. Problem is, if you're speculating about Nazis, UFOs and controversial stuff like that, it's very likely that someone on the internet will run with your theory, add a little fiction, half truths and nonsense of his own and present it as THE REAL THING.

Plus, if you publish it, I guess you should be prepared to be critizised a lot, depending on how controversial and provocative the premise of your alternate history is. Drop me a PM or open a thread at your own risk, and only if you want to give away the idea at this stage.

Common thinking is that they weren't even close.

Yes, I get that, but I've never been much of a common thinker.
No, you're right, they probably weren't half as close as the sensationalist near-Nazi-doomsday theories say. But a reactor protoype, wether named "The Bell" or not, could still have been a fact. Who says that he thing ever worked the way they wanted. More speculation, of course.

 

[DaveM]

I watched the 'Iron Sky' movie for the first time today. Let's just say I was underwhelmed. I realize it is supposed to be a spoof, but it was a bad one. Had the producers made a straight movie instead of a parody, this film would have been a whole lot better. Spoofing Sarah Palin as the US president was funny for about ten seconds. The special effects weren't bad, it was just the story that bought this movie to a crashing halt.

 

[Han]

My understanding is that German development of the A- bomb was severely hindered when Allied raids destroyed their "heavy water" facilities in Norway.
I also believe that they had a plan to develop a "space bomber" that carried a "radioactive" bomb. I think the plane was called a "silbervogel" (silver bird auf Englisch) and the plan was to drop the said bomb from a vast altitude which would then explode about 3000 feet above the target dispersing radioactive particles in all directions, which would cause radiation sickness and death to those below.
The Silbervogel evolved into the US Space shuttle.

One other thing is that the "jet" engine was a British invention, although it was not embraced.

A factor in the apparent discrepancy in weapon development between Germany and Britain was the "ten year rule".

Finally and I think most importantly, the invention that stands head and shoulders above any "Nazi" technology is the Computer, which was developed by people that the Nazis would have disapproved of and would have most likely been imprisoned or worse for their behaviours or heritage.

Which brings me on to the way that "history" is sometimes "Hollywoodised"* a perfect example is the film U-571.

 

[boomerang]

Someone, I forget who, pointed out that as a delivery device for conventional explosives only, the V2 rocket made little sense. It was a very expensive, non-cost effective technology in that regard. The implication is that The Reich invested huge resources in the V2 program on the assumption that it would eventually be used to deliver nukes. This makes a certain intuitive kind of sense. However, history records numerous instances of German military assets during the war having been inappropriately utilized. Retrospective analysis suggests that as the Reich failed, its ruling cult of personality retreated increasingly into a kind of Wagnerian dream world in which a war decisive wonder weapon would almost magically appear to save the day. Hence, perhaps, many of those elegant conceptual artworks we may now confuse with operative projects.

The biggest irony, of course, is that the Nazis squandered many of their most precious scientific assets in years leading up to the war in the form of some of Europe's best minds fleeing west.

This is not to underrate German technology. Germany in the 1930's was probably the most scientifically and technologically advanced nation on earth. It would appear its top leadership continued to see it as such, even as things crumbled around them.

 

[marduk]

Someone, I forget who, pointed out that as a delivery device for conventional explosives only, the V2 rocket made little sense. It was a very expensive, non-cost effective technology in that regard. The implication is that The Reich invested huge resources in the V2 program on the assumption that it would eventually be used to deliver nukes. This makes a certain intuitive kind of sense. However, history records numerous instances of German military assets during the war having been inappropriately utilized. Retrospective analysis suggests that as the Reich failed, its ruling cult of personality retreated increasingly into a kind of Wagnerian dream world in which a war decisive wonder weapon would almost magically appear to save the day. Hence, perhaps, many of those elegant conceptual artworks we may now confuse with operative projects.

The biggest irony, of course, is that the Nazis squandered many of their most precious scientific assets in years leading up to the war in the form of some of Europe's best minds fleeing west.

This is not to underrate German technology. Germany in the 1930's was probably the most scientifically and technologically advanced nation on earth. It would appear its top leadership continued to see it as such, even as things crumbled around them.

I believe the V2 was meant to be primarily a psychological weapon; the ability to attack across the channel with impunity was meant to shock and awe the UK.