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New World: Climate Change

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OH looksy we have an IF.

Now why didnt you just say IF its true in the first place, there wouldnt have been any mis-understanding then, you coulda fantasied away til yer hearts content undisturbed, but you led us to believe you were spreading enlightenment with scientific fact, we could see it was more fantasy than fact,but others may not, im glad you cleared that up, so crack on, show us your visions, just dont pretend your visions are ground in science as you have been..

Be lucky.
 
Some good news:

Danmark covered 39% of it's electricity use with windmills in 2014. The figure has more than doubled in 10 years. In 2020, at least 50% will be from windmills.

The message is that where there's a will, there's a solution.

Those who do not have the will, will need to find it, because they cannot be allowed to endanger everyone else.
 
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OH looksy we have an IF.

Now why didnt you just say IF its true in the first place, there wouldnt have been any mis-understanding then..
You know, maybe she just did it to please you. It seems it didn't work though, all she got was a rude reply..

Are you seriously arguing from that 2007 Great Global Warming Swindle film? :D
That shit is sooooo debunked Manx, in fact I remember debunking it personally, piece by piece, when it came out. I just forgot which forum or I'd send you a link. But if you're sincere, and you really want to know, just Google debunking great Global Warming Swindle, there'll be plenty of sites to read.

Or look at the comments section of the Guardian article, check the comment in the top by two participants who were used in the movie, it is highly damning, I quote:
What we now have is an out-and-out propaganda piece, in which there is not even a gesture toward balance or explanation of why many of the extended inferences drawn in the film are not widely accepted by the scientific community. There are so many examples, it's hard to know where to begin..

Pretty bad PR for Channel 4. But it gets worse:
At a minimum, I ask that the film should never be seen again publicly with my participation included. Channel 4 surely owes an apology to its viewers, and perhaps WAGTV owes something to Channel 4. I will be taking advice as to whether I should proceed to make some more formal protest.

Sincerely,
Carl Wunsch Cecil and Ida Green Professor of Physical Oceanography Massachusetts Institute of Technology
George Monbiot on The Great Global Warming Swindle | Comment is free | The Guardian

Those scientists sound pretty pissed Manx, they feel betrayed, and it should tell you something about the credibility of the people behind that film.

Another thing, since it appeared almost 10 years ago, I have to wonder what kind of selective reading you've been doing in the meantime, if you still believe it is a worthy documentary?

Of course, if you genuinely believe that scientists are evil and all are into a great conspiracy, then it's right up your alley. In that case, allow me to conclude that you've got your head firmly planted in conspiracy-soil, with only the ass showing.
 
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I appreciate your response, Jimi H. Also, thank you for coming on the thread. :)

The problem with two posters who have been dive-bombing this thread with anti-AGW arguments is that this thread is not for arguing AGW. The thread's prime reason for existence is to look at the world coming under AGW in all aspects: environmental, societal, political, economic, etc. It's an exploratory discussion I would like to have that up to now has been blocked and choked off by the anti-AGW spamming.

Notice to all: if you have an interest in debating the validity of AGW as a theory or it's science, there are innumerable threads on the site that have engaged that debate. Repeat: innumerable threads are available to take up that debate. This thread - the only one of it's kind - is not engaging the debate. This thread is looking at how the world will change under AGW - in fact, how it is changing under AGW, both as an accepted 'fact' in science and as a political/public perception reality (the two are different, the latter proceeds 'as if' ' - is a societal decision based on the tipping point when science drives public policy).

P.S. The constant hectoring within this thread by two posters (Pixel and manxman) simply betrays ignorance. The 'if' is not new - and has been there from the outset of the thread. Had the two individuals bothered to actually read the thread posts - and comprehend what they were reading - such a comment would not be made. Nothing is being posted to assuage anyone. One of the problems is the two individuals - contrary to their claims - do not understand the tentative nature of science. However, even with that tentative nature, there reaches a tipping point when science drives public policy, and we have reached that tipping point given the overwhelming evidence of changes in climate taking place world-wide. Arguing that is best done on threads already dedicated to that debate. That is not what is taking place here.
 
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Yea, the consequences are definitly worth a thread, although one gets a bit depressed reading through it. ;)

One thing for sure, it's already costing us money now, and that figure will increase. It simply won't pay not to do something about it.
 
I feel like I am in Middle School these days. :rolleyes:



.






To emphasize what this thread is about I will quote post#1 which sets the topic -

Hello.

Purpose of thread is to review the changes being reported worldwide.

Climate Change is the kickstarter. [Not as a belief but as an initial premise.] There is far more afoot than 'just' that - though that's enough. Population is also a force. Pollution is a force. A shifting paradigm in how we view ourselves in the universe, both as a species, as a world, and as a consciousness (and this includes psychological, religious, political and spiritual aspects).

Climate Change is the raison d'être for the thread. It is a given, not a debate. [In order to avoid the fruitless back-and-forth of 'my scientists' and 'your scientists'.] There are innumerable threads where that "debate" can be waged, but not here. [In order to keep the thread clear of the aimless never-ending debate for some. I am not a proselytizer about Global Warming. I've no interest in convincing anyone of a viewpoint.] It is generally accepted that we are undergoing a change in climate worldwide. It is happening way ahead of schedule, by thousands of years - far faster than it would have ever happened 'on its own terms'. The deciding factor? CO2 produced by humans. We - our activities - appear to have been the kick that has gotten the ball rolling.

I don't think one should be looking for an in-depth 'education' in this area on a chat site not peopled with scientists nor with it as a direct focus. That's not saying that there are not exceedingly intelligent posters here with a considerable grasp of complicated facts. However, the conversations have taken place on several other threads here which are still extant, not even archived - so one's best bet is to go reading (and conversing) on those threads, if one seeks 'debate' on whether there is warming, whether it is human caused, etc.. [And now there is Pixel's new thread, linked above.]

Here we will look at the way the world is shifting - or must shift. What does the future hold? Apocalypse? Guns and violence? I don't think so. In fact, in times of great turmoil history seems to indicate that there are indeed the breakdowns, but there is also the re-forming into cooperative groups. IMO Cities will be vital in the future - not the places to flee from. Those that survive are not the one's who lose all civility and restraint and hole up in caves with a sprinkling of others. Rather they are the ones doomed to extinction. In the end it was always the barbarians who folded into the civilized world who survived, because in the end, that is the only route to survival. Cities will always be where the libraries are and sources of learning reside and renewal will originate. People together create safety and comfort - not isolated and apart. So I see a more cohesive world, albeit local.

Hence, I am suggesting that the steady diet coming from Hollywood of societal breakdowns and roving bands of cannibals is overblown. In fact, I'd be keen to have a conversation about this divergence of views [in breakdowns versus a cooperative - albeit, local - world.]

Whatever comes, I view the thread as exploring the possible world coming due to the changes afoot - climate change (caused by humans to whatever degree) being one. If you feel inclined, please join in.
 
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A link between fracking and earth quaking has been observed -

Study Confirms Earthquakes In Ohio Were Triggered By Fracking

January 6, 2015 | by Justine Alford
LINK: Study Confirms Earthquakes In Ohio Were Triggered By Fracking | IFLScience
TEXT: "A new study, released by the Seismological Society of America on Monday, has confirmed that a series of small earthquakes experienced in Ohio were triggered by fracking activity. This seismic sequence, which took place in March 2014, comprised five recorded earthquakes, ranging from magnitude 2.1 to 3.0.

"One of these events was a rare “felt” earthquake, meaning it was large enough to be felt by people in nearby towns, although it didn’t pose any risk and didn’t cause damage. Given the fact that the events took place within one kilometer (0.6 miles) of a group of oil and gas wells, state officials decided to halt operations two days after the 3.0 quake hit. Since then, scientists have been scouring through seismic data to determine whether the fracking activity was to blame, and the results have now been published in the Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America.

"Fracking, or hydraulic fracturing as it is correctly termed, is a technique designed to extract natural gas and oil from shale rock layers deep within the Earth. It involves drilling deep into the Earth’s surface, reaching depths of one to two miles or more, before blasting the rock with a high-pressure water mixture. This opens up new cracks and channels in the rock from which trapped gas can escape up the well bore.

"It’s well known that fracking triggers tiny tremors; it’s a pretty explosive process, but usually these are far too small to be felt by humans in the surrounding area. It’s therefore quite unusual for the activity to have triggered a felt earthquake in Ohio. However, as explained in a press release from the SSA, seismic monitoring advances and an increase in the popularity of fracking have meant that the number of earthquakes—both felt and unfelt—associated with the activity has started to increase in recent years.

"Scientists were able to conclude that fracking was indeed the cause of the series of earthquakes experienced last year in Ohio by trawling through data recorded by a network of stations called the Earthscope Transportable Array. In total, they found 77 earthquakes occurred between March 4 and 12 in the Poland Township area, ranging in magnitude from 1.0 to 3.0. These were then compared to well stimulation reports, which revealed that the events matched up with fracking activities at the Hilcorp well in terms of both timing and location.

"So what was it about Hilcorp’s activities that caused such seismic activity? It seems that it was just a case of bad luck due to the fact that the company was fracking in a very old layer of rock which probably possesses many pre-existing faults. “This activity did not create a new fault, rather it activated one that we didn’t know about prior to the seismic activity,” explained study co-author Robert Skoumal. “We just don’t know where all the faults are located.” As a result, the Ohio Department of Natural Resources has now made tougher regulations in regards to fracking near known fault lines and other areas of potential seismic activity."
 
Yea, the consequences are definitly worth a thread, although one gets a bit depressed reading through it. ;)

I'm not depressed (unless you mean some of the posting that has taken place recently :rolleyes: ).

IMO all great shifts in an economic base are painful. I have every confidence that we shall weather all the blips. Locally people are already making the shifts. You have to - if the planting season shifts, you shift with it. If plants succumb to the heat, or cold, you get new ones. There's no question that we can adapt, as long as the shift takes place gradually, and of course, some predict a far more rapid change than would be healthy. It's a continuum of opinions - gradual, fast, too fast - take one's pick.

In my last link to the interview Thom Hartmann had with Michael Mann, there is a sense of many possibilities. Nothing is written in stone. The system itself is adaptive - but in ways we cannot conceive, so we can only go on what we know. Planning for the worst may mean the worst never arrives - and that's a good thing. IMO.

One thing for sure, it's already costing us money now, and that figure will increase. It simply won't pay not to do something about it.

But that's the thing, lots is being done. So I'm optimistic. It's a bit of a mystery and that makes it tantalizing.
 
Here is the full interview Thom Hartmann had with Dr Michael Mann. Interview starts at about 2:25. Lots of stuff to chew here.

Dr. Michael Mann on Historic Climate Deal
TEXT: "Published on Nov 13, 2014: Dr. Michael Mann, Penn State University / The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars joins Thom Hartmann. Republicans are already threatening to gut the EPA as soon as they officially take over control of the Senate in January. When did the Republican Party become the party of Big Polluters? Just how important is this deal? What are the specifics of it?"
 
The world is in the grip of lethal forces: the recent attack in Paris that killed 12 people at a newspaper - appalling. And here in the US we are looking at the breakdown in police/public relations and are fighting off insane political maneuvers by bought-and-paid-for politicians. The US is always the crazy-cart ride but we seem to be in a particularly difficult place.

In the below video at approx 3:25 onwards mention is made of some of the most outrageous 'permissions' written into the TPP that will come up for a congressional vote, regarding the environment, for example - and forget CO2 emission standards. As one poster writes: "Anyone signing the TPP has commited an act of treason." The United States is being 'rolled' - in a major way. The fight is on to 'take back' the government from out of monied and foreign interests, but it's not a sure thing.

"Albert Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. When it comes to so-called "free trade" deals - Washington has officially gone insane." All in full sight of everyone. The mainstream media does not report. In the US we have lost the Fourth Estate - it is hanging on by it's fingernails.

Washington Has Officially Gone Insane On Free Trade

TEXT: "Published on Jan 7, 2015: Albert Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. When it comes to so-called "free trade" deals - Washington has officially gone insane."
 
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POLITE REMINDER:

This thread will be for discussion on the basis of accepting human-made climate change. Argue climate change science etc elsewhere.

The 'New world.....actual science' thread title has been altered to prevent one being mistaken for the other.
 
3D map of Antarctic sea ice to shed light on climate change

TEXT: "Published on Nov 24, 2014: A multinational group of scientists have released the first ever detailed, high-resolution 3-D maps of Antarctic sea ice. Using an underwater robot equipped with sonar, the researchers mapped the underside of a massive area of sea ice to gauge the impact of climate change. Ben Gruber reports."
 
Regarding the future, there is substantial local growth in roof-top Solar Panels, that makes each household independent. Scary for the entrenched interests - money walking away......

The Secret Dirty War to Stop Solar Power

TEXT: "Published on Jan 9, 2015: Brendan Fischer, Center for Media and Democracy / ALEC Exposed, joins Thom Hartmann."
 
Human-Induced Seismicity.

Scientists Prove Fracking Causes Earthquakes

TEXT: "Published on Jan 9, 2015: Dr. Anthony Ingraffea Ph.D., P.E., Cornell University, joins Thom Hartmann."
 
If the planet keeps warming, methane looms. :( Temperature rise of 1.4 degrees is already 'cooked into the cake'. It's already happened. We are 1.4 degrees warmer. Methane.....once that puppy is let lose, it's game-over. That's what the science says.

Shifting oil subsidies to renewable energy is the major roadblock. Oil does not want to lose those subsidies. Nope.


Climate Disaster Lurking off the Coast of Washington?


TEXT: "Published on Dec 16, 2014: Karen Orenstein, Friends of the Earth & Oscar Reyes, Institute for Policy Studies, join Thom Hartmann. There’s something lurking off the coast of Washington State - and it could mean disaster for our planet."

Temperature rise of 1.4 degrees is already 'cooked into the cake'. It's already happened. We are 1.4 degrees warmer.

Since what year ?, 1.4 degrees warmer than when tyger please ?.
 
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The issues and promises confronting the future new world coming are hampered by the hammer-lock vested interests have had on the status quo, choking out innovation. In debates on energy, the mantra endlessly repeated by the fossil-fuel advocates is 'affordable cheap energy'. Fact is, oil, coal, gas and nuclear are not cheap since they are subsidized by the (US) taxpayer (and I assume around the world by other governments in their respective nations). The true cost of these energies is considerable, especially the social costs.

What is remarkable about the new energy sources is their accessibility, genuine affordability (with some government subsidy and price ceilings in effect in certain instances, at the beginning) and, in the end, local control. It's this latter factor that always impresses me - how much I, as a home-owner, for example, will be self-sustaining. Imagine the future in that kind of world.

In the foregoing I am talking primarily about solar and wind power, but in the following book far more outside-of-the-box technologies are suggested, far further along in feasibility than many realize.

Breakthrough Power: How Quantum-leap New Energy Inventions Can Transform Our World (Second Edition)Paperback - by Jeane Manning and Joel Garbon (May 1, 2011)


Amazon Blurb: "Powerful interests have long prevented the big changes we all need in energy sources, but Breakthrough Power opens the doors on game-changing nonpolluting inventions. Innovative magnetic motors, zero point energy, water-as-fuel, and other new paradigm advances offer keys to a truly sustainable world. Read this book and share the secrets to a better future."


Amazon Review: "Expose of the Scientific Inquisition: This book could very well be given this title, at least as far as non-polluting, renewable energy sources are concerned. The picture it presents of the scientific community, as regards openness to novel ideas and concepts, is far from being a pretty one. In spite of that, the overall message of the book is one of positive outcomes and ultimate hope. If we change our collective consumerist habits and open ourselves to a more inclusive awareness, that is.

"This book has been meticulously researched. The main aim of the authors' is to highlight the fact that several renewable sources of energy already abound and that there are many people who have already created the technology to tap into them. However, in recounting their stories, it clearly appears that a major reason for these efforts having been kept unknown from the public at large, is, the insurmountable opposition created by high priests of scientific institutions and their corporate partners in industry. Together, the latter named have succeeded in suppressing and strangulating all individual endeavours to finding solutions to our energy problems, aiming instead, to protect their own financial vested interests.

"Most of the people whose innovations find mention in this book, are renegades, individualists with few resources and many ideas. The areas in which their expertise have come forth, (at least as far as this book is concerned), are primarily perpetual motion magnetic motors, whose energy sources are not clearly understood scientifically, and have not been studied or formulated in detail. A few have learnt to harness the energy of the vacuum, or what they call, zero point energy. Others use high powered magnets, using the intrinsic nature of the magnet, to power household devices. A few others use water electrolysis, the fuel being hydrogen which recombines in the engines to form water, releasing usable energy. The authors also mention a number of cases where cold fusion has been reported (I remember one of them myself, in 1989, as the news created quite a stir in the media at the time, before the interest died down). In any case, instead of initiating a wider study to understand the principles involved that run these devices, the inherent weakness, of using principles not clearly understood, is used by scientific-corporate cartels in the establishment to degrade and depreciate the work of newcomers who do not 'belong'. Desperately needed funding is stopped, their work is belittled and ridiculed, in many cases, their persona attacked and in some cases, their property burnt down and destroyed and the scientists themselves, driven to suicide.

"The authors conclude with a last chapter on what the involved individual can accomplish with a judicious use of his/her power of choice in order to solve his/her energy requirements in the backdrop of a changing world scenario and an uncertain future. The conclusions drawn are surprisingly positive, while also being reasonable and convincing (at least to me). The list of references and extra material is also quite exhaustive.

"I strongly recommend this book, if only to reveal a side of science institutions that is completely opposed to the 'scientific method' that they so effectively use to boost their credibility and preserve their dominant status. It is this very mindset that has encouraged the plethora of science books under the heading of "Lost Science" today, legitimate ideas, that have been "lost", ideas which have nothing to do with mysticism, but which have been constrained to carry that label, and therefore made out to be an object of derision by irresponsible heads of prestige institutions. Fortunately, the Internet has played a positive part in this process, by allowing access to these "lost" ideas to the public at large, bypassing those pathways (primarily research journals) where established prejudices maintain a stranglehold. This book could well have been typecast in the 'mystical' category, when in reality, it is nothing of the kind.

"Well done Jeane Manning and Joel Garbon!"
 
One of the factors that comes home as one delves into this subject of how the world will/must change in order to survive the coming rigors is the the shift from centralized power. The new world being ushered in by the very real necessities of Climate Change means a de-centralized world, albeit connected by a cooperative 'web'. It's already happening in '3rd World' countries that are by-passing the coal/oil/gas model, moving at once into sustainable models (as mentioned in previous posts). Europe, country by country, is effecting the change - Germany comes to mind, Norway and Sweden (the Scandinavian countries tend to be far-seeing in this way).

The shift away from oil is already having impacts - at a time when more oil reserves are being discovered, oddly enough. But the impetus to
sustainable energy is now a serious movement. In the US we will be dealing with the retrograde foot-dragging of Congress for the next two years until the next election - but the local movement toward sustainability is definite and unmistakeable.

The following book explores the consequences of this revolutionary shift in energy sources for governments. Something to ponder.


This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs. The Climate - Naomi Klein (September 16, 2014)


Amazon Blurb:
"The most important book yet from the author of the international bestseller The Shock Doctrine, a brilliant explanation of why the climate crisis challenges us to abandon the core “free market” ideology of our time, restructure the global economy, and remake our political systems. In short, either we embrace radical change ourselves or radical changes will be visited upon our physical world. The status quo is no longer an option.

"In This Changes Everything Naomi Klein argues that climate change isn’t just another issue to be neatly filed between taxes and health care. It’s an alarm that calls us to fix an economic system that is already failing us in many ways. Klein meticulously builds the case for how massively reducing our greenhouse emissions is our best chance to simultaneously reduce gaping inequalities, re-imagine our broken democracies, and rebuild our gutted local economies. She exposes the ideological desperation of the climate-change deniers, the messianic delusions of the would-be geo-engineers, and the tragic defeatism of too many mainstream green initiatives. And she demonstrates precisely why the market has not—and cannot—fix the climate crisis but will instead make things worse, with ever more extreme and ecologically damaging extraction methods, accompanied by rampant disaster capitalism.

"Klein argues that the changes to our relationship with nature and one another that are required to respond to the climate crisis humanely should not be viewed as grim penance, but rather as a kind of gift—a catalyst to transform broken economic and cultural priorities and to heal long-festering historical wounds. And she documents the inspiring movements that have already begun this process: communities that are not just refusing to be sites of further fossil fuel extraction but are building the next, regeneration-based economies right now. Can we pull off these changes in time? Nothing is certain. Nothing except that climate change changes everything. And for a very brief time, the nature of that change is still up to us."
 
'Disruptive technologies' - an interesting phrase I have just come across in my copious reading this evening. In many ways the Internet is a disruptive technology. It has the power to break down power concentrations, as demonstrated in political protests around the world in recent years.

3D Printing is a huge disruptive technology - by-passing manufacture of parts, for one example. Housing. Huge.

Crowd-funding - by-passing investors and power brokers regarding emerging technologies.
 
Have come across the following book I intend to purchase. Sounds like good fun. Given that I am particularly well-acquainted with the vying medical paradigms that jostled for pre-eminence at the turn of the 20th century - which is why we are in the pickle we are currently in with medical science, I can well resonate to the sentiment that "It's sad to think just how much better our lives might be if they had allowed some of these breakthroughs to be commercialized."

The modern myth is that truth has always won through in all the controversies. The myth is that science is the 'shining city on the hill' that has borne civilization along the best routes. I have never believed that. While I am one person who every day stands in awe of this mighty, albeit flawed in many ways, civilization I find myself part of (I do love the world I find myself in) I can say with equal sincerity that we have missed being even further along than we are. IMO.

The mere suggestion of censorship and suppression of science against science may startle some but it is an on-going reality. But because of the 'disruptive technologies' (mentioned above) the power brokers and gatekeepers cannot exert the same suppression as once before.

Lost Science Paperback - by Gerry Vassilatos (March 1, 2000)


Amazon Blurb: "Gerry Vassilatos writes about the remarkable lives, astounding discoveries and incredible inventions of such famous people as Nikola Tesla, Dr. Royal Rife, T. T. Brown, and T. Henry Moray. Read about the aura research of Baron Karl von Reichenbach, the wireless of Antonio Meucci, the controlled fusion devices of Philo Farnsworth, the earth battery of Nathan Stubblefield and more.

"What were the twisted intrigues that surrounded the often deliberate attempts to stop this technology? Vassilatos claims that we are living hundreds of years behind our intended level of technology and that we must recapture this "lost science." Rediscover the legendary names of our suppressed scientific revolution and read about the remarkable lives, astounding discoveries and incredible inventions that would have produced a world of wonder.

"How did the aura research of Baron Karl von Reichenbach prove the vitalistic theory and frighten the greatest minds in Germany?

"How did the physiophone and wireless of Antonio Meucci predate both Bell and Marconi by decades?

"How does the earth battery technology of Nathan Stubblefield portend an unsuspected energy revolution?

"How did the geoaetheric engines of Nikola Tesla threaten the establishment of a fuel-dependent America?

"The microscopes and virus-destroying ray machines of Dr. Royal Rife provided the solution for every world-threatening disease. Why did the FDA and AMA together condemn this great man to a federal prison?

"The static crashes on telephone lines enabled Dr. Henry T. Moray to discover the reality of radiant space energy. Was the mysterious "Swedish stone," the powerful mineral Dr. Moray discovered, the very first historical instance in which stellar power was recognized and secured on earth?

"Why did the Air Force initially fund the gravitational warp research and warp-cloaking devices of T. Townsend Brown and then reject them?

"When the controlled fusion devices of Philo Farnsworth achieved the "break-even" point in 1967, why was the FUSOR project abruptly canceled by ITT?

"What were the twisted intrigues that surrounded these deliberate convolutions of history? Each chapter is a biographic treasure."


Apparently the book is a tad badly written - many reviews mention tortured prose - but all agree it's well worth the read. I especially liked this Amazon Review. :D : "So Great, So Bad - The information offered is astounding, the scientific characters it depicts engrossing. Too bad that the writing style is often akin to a rat maze: the entrance point is clear, the journey byzantine, the outcome slightly fuzzy. Many claims are made: one wishes at least some of them were true. But the book lacks credible footnotes, so it is difficult to determine the validity of the statements. The worst aspect of this paranoid gem is that, at times, the author floats off into New Age mumbo-jumbo and begins sounding like a super-intelligent inmate off his meds.

"Even with all these flaws, the book is definitely worth reading as a springboard to further investigation of the depicted scientists and their discoveries.

"As the cost of existent copies is, shall we say, inflated, it is a mystery to me why the publishers do not reissue it."
 
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