Nibiru, 2012, and Need Debunking Help

[cottonzway]

so in other words, you suck at thinking....but like to hang out with the intellectual crowd.

kudos.


ps... www.google.com

Wow. Is this directed towards me?

yes, entirely.

who in the hell comes to the conclusion that someone is so blatantly wrong, yet cant form their own argument as to WHY they are wrong? and then comes to an internet message board for "debunking help".

get over yourself.

Get over myself? Wow. You're an asshole.

 

[CapnG]

What... am I talking to the wall here? Hello? Is this thing on?

YOU CANNOT HIDE A PLANET!!!! WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IT BY NOW!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NIBIRU!!!!

End of discussion

 

[Mogwa]

I believe Cottonzway was requesting specific, detailed examples of errors in Sitchin's interpretations of cuneiform texts that he might further study on his own to supplement the more readily available refutations of accredited historians and astronomers. I see nothing wrong with expanding your knowledge of a subject even after acquiring enough relevant basic data to support an opinion from analysis derived from other disciplines.
Anything as large as Nibiru is supposed to be would have been discovered long ago because it is a physical object and must obey the laws of Newtonian physics. Even if it were invisible to our optical instruments,, astronomers could plot its location and accuracy with great precision due to the gravitational effects it would have on other planets and moons in our solar system.
Besides, the entire argument is based upon a false assumption. Neither the Sumerians or Akkadians never claimed Nibiru is anything like Sitchin makes it out to be. You can easily test my claim with a little hard work and an open mind.
A measure of civility wouldn't hurt, either.

 

[auntiegrav]

As for specifics of the Nibiru video that you started with, Cotton, there is a series of pictures of a sunrise that supposedly show Nibiru?
This is unlikely because if they are a series from the same day, the sun rises as the object drops to the horizon farther than the sun moves. This would mean that the object either has to be very close already, or very bright (not a 'dark object') like a star, and moving so fast as to be unlike any other objects ever seen. If it is still some 5 years out, it wouldn't move in the sky relative to the sun during a sunrise.
It also would probably not be visible with the sun in the same frame, since it is supposedly a planet, not a luminous object.

I have trouble with any sensationalized story that spends more time talking about the horrors and what we should do than actually talking about the supposed subject, such as who observed this object, what perturbations of orbits it supposedly caused (other than the reference to the asteroid belt, which is still an unknown whether it was ever a planet (If the Japanese manage to get their spacecraft working on most of its engines, we might know a little more and decide if it is worth mining the Belt).
You can't go blaming a catastrophe on something when you don't know if there actually was a catastrophe, then use that as 'proof' that one particular theory out of several is the cause.
There is a more recent discovery that the sun might wander into different danger zones of the galactic plane on a periodic basis. This might also explain the historical observations of 'visitors'.

 

[George Hayduke]

What... am I talking to the wall here? Hello? Is this thing on?

YOU CANNOT HIDE A PLANET!!!! WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IT BY NOW!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NIBIRU!!!!

End of discussion

Calm down. It's been seen and multiple articles were written by the establishment press on the sighting, including an article in The Washington Post. Later it was downplayed and since then the subject has been contained to the realm of the underground. You are making claims without doing any research and you seem to be expecting NASA to do something it has never done and disclose incredible truths to the public. C'mon Cap, do some research before you try to "debunk" something!

 

[auntiegrav]

Calm down. It's been seen and multiple articles were written by the establishment press on the sighting, including an article in The Washington Post. Later it was downplayed and since then the subject has been contained to the realm of the underground. You are making claims without doing any research and you seem to be expecting NASA to do something it has never done and disclose incredible truths to the public. C'mon Cap, do some research before you try to "debunk" something!

Do you have a link to this article in the Washington Post?

Some other links besides Sitchin or Jenner or Andy Lloyd?

I think this pretty much covers it from Jenner's site :
NIBIRU AND THE SUBTERRANEAN CONNECTION
INTRODUCTION
According to my subterranean research, there was a vast global ancient underground tunnel system built by Giants before the Flood of Noah. This tunnel system is no doubt derelict in some areas and has been obliterated over the millennia by earthquakes due to plate tectonics, but from what I have investigated, some areas are still intact and possibly operational. I’m documenting all this because I think there is a direct correlation between the passing of Nibiru and the subsequent ‘underground’ activity of the giants. Call it survival mode if-you-will for the remaining Nephilim. Their descendants were not wiped out after the flood—caused by Nibiru—and the only way they could survive was to occupy the subterranean realm. From the Dead Sea Scrolls, the ‘Book of Giants’ for instance, gives tantalizing clues as to the Giants connection with the ‘Inner Earth’ in particular these two verses which state the following:

“……in them……Then ‘Ohyah [below the earth—GJ] said to Hahyah, his brother…….on top of the earth….the earth. When…..they bowed down and wept in front of Enoch….” (4Q203 [4QEn Giants ar])

“…and they knew the mysteries…..great in the earth…..in the earth….the giants….” (1Q23 [1QEn Giants ar])

Like any occupied territory or country though (this is where it gets complicated) there seems to be malevolent groups/races vying for dominance within the Earth, on the other hand, benevolent groups/races have chosen to segregate from the original Nephilim race and go it alone into remote obscurity. The question is will one of these subterranean races ever interact with humanity once again in the future?
THE EVIDENCE OF GIANT DESCENDENTS WITHIN THE EARTH

It's a good bet that the oil companies would have found them by now, and I'm pretty sure NASA isn't looking for the subterranean giants' connections to the Pioneer spacecraft gravitational anomalies.

Dark Star, Dark Lord, Darth Vader.... whatever. It's not like we will be able to do anything that we shouldn't already be doing: living sustainably, building community networks for survival and protection, developing space technology for detecting and possibly deflecting celestial threats, keeping an open mind about extraterrestrial contact and missionary work, minimizing our waste of resources on wars of mass deceptions, etc.

The problem I find most obvious about the Dark Star Hypothesis is when people start connecting it with biblical references and Messianic ages and pyramid building. That's always a red flag. We first need to find out more about human history in the last 20000 years before we can start attibuting our ancestors feats to aliens and subterranean giants.
Modern science has barely started to think, let alone answer even a fraction of the questions that are to be asked. Religion has done a fine job of financing some interesting projects, but more often than not, it has simply been used to control and deceive people for the sake of a few selfish individuals who thrive on keeping people ignorant ("They must not eat of the tree of knowledge"). Meanwhile, there are more and more of these book sellers that play on people's emotions (lizard brains) to sell books, movies, and seminars about anything that gets people to latch on to a simplistic idea or fear of something they cannot do anything to prove or disprove. Just like Gods. It's called Evil: Action taken based upon blind faith.
Remember this: Old Testament---Metaphors, New Testament---Social Control.
Before the Romans and Greeks joined up, most old myths were metaphorical because it was easier to remember a sensationalized story than the actual one. Noah's flood has been pretty well tied to the flooding of the Bosphorus. This is a regional story that encompassed the author's known world, and it is an interpretation of the story of Gilgamesh. "forty days and forty nights" is a term that means "a long time", it isn't actually 40 days. The Christ figure is probably a confabulation from some stories about one or more individuals, predictions, legends of several religions, and a tool to consolidate power in the Roman Empire between pagans (the Winter Solstice partiers) and monotheists ("worship the son of god, not the god of the sun"). Meanwhile, we have people setting up all kinds of historical dates and stories based upon the writings and scribbling of people who charged money for indulgences, tortured people into confessions, and burned as much ancient knowledge as they could get their hands on. If it wasn't for the Arab world, we would still be in the dark ages and the Renaissance wouldn't have been able to renew anything.
Now, along comes Nibiru and all that deception just fits perfectly together with the pyramids and Averbury and ley lines and what else; the blackout in New York?

 

[CapnG]

You are making claims without doing any research and you seem to be expecting NASA to do something it has never done and disclose incredible truths to the public. C'mon Cap, do some research before you try to "debunk" something!

If you got links to those articles let's have 'em! As to the rest, it needn't be NASA. As I've said, it's kinda hard to hide something like this, it should be perfectly visible to ANYONE with a regular telescope. So you'll forgive me if I don't buy the "downplaying" excuse, since in reality there'd be no way to cover up something that everyone can simply look up and observe. It's ridiculous on it's face.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

This may interest some.
Zecharia Sitchin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This whole thing reminds me of an e-mail I received recently, claiming that Mars was going to appear as large as our moon on Aug 27th. I actually had to explain to some people I know (including some 50 plus year olds) that the whole thing was a hoax. They actually thought Mars was going to make a quantum orbital leap. Not that that's Sitchin's claims. I can't recall.

I'd like to see the Wash.Post article too please.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Something else people might be interested in.

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.rense.com/general/vs.htm

"Balanced Critique Of
Alford vs Sitchin &
Von Daniken"

 

[cottonzway]

I'm happy that out of all of this, despite one jagoff, there has been a lot of good info in this thread. So me asking for "debunking" help got a lot of good info out of it.

 

[auntiegrav]

Something else people might be interested in.

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.rense.com/general/vs.htm

"Balanced Critique Of
Alford vs Sitchin &
Von Daniken"

Thanks. It is always interesting to read a coherent interview to see what someone really has to offer on a particular idea.

This one lost my attention when it went into our "off -planet origins". This is as good as Intelligent Design in my opinion. As we study more and more of our DNA patterns and see how every living thing on Earth came from basically the same starting point, and we have pieces of DNA that are identical among all the different species(across plants, animals, bacteria, fungi etc), then we can just begin to understand how integrated our bodies are with the living planet we exist upon. To push for "off-planet origins", one would have to insist that the DNA we share with other species means that those species also came from another planet. In other words, you have to go back to the origin of all life on this planet coming from somewhere else, which is fine, but it also almost completely negates the idea of things being "injected" along the way, simply due to the complexity of the project and the number of events that have caused extinctions and massive changes without controlled influences, and the sheer number of interconnections and residue from past events that exist in DNA.
In other words, if it was all planned from the beginning, then how did they predict the asteroids, ice ages, volcanoes, plate tectonics, etc. that influenced the development of life which led to humans being intelligent?
That said, it doesn't preclude something along the lines of the Gaia hypothesis, where the planet has become a living system which reacts intelligently to changes, even influencing how species communicate with each other and develop through DNA exchanges(There are some wild things to learn about antibiotic-resistant bacteria in "The Lost Language of Plants" by Buhler). Or, that the paranormal manifestations we see are energetic intelligences or patterns which exist as part of some background 'aether' which we don't normally detect.
I'd like to meet a benevolent extraterrestrial as much as anyone, I guess, but I'm not going to call them "Daddy".
Perhaps our unique developmental history is the one thing of value which both interests them and protects us.

 

[George Hayduke]

Okay you lazy people. I just did a simple google on "object at edge of solar system" and this is the first, the very first, thing that came up: At the Edge of Solar System, a 10th Planet May Lurk

Some of y'all still trust The Post to dispell truth when it's lied through its teeth about 911, the War on Terror, Iraq and now Iran. So let's say that there's some truth to that article, but probably as much propaganda in it as is in anything The Post publishes. Remember, the future of the power stucture is at stake with the disclosure of some of the truths we know they are hiding from us.

Anyway, here's another: Washington Post December 30, 1983

That one says the planet is bigger than Jupiter. Hmmmm.

 

[CapnG]

So let me see if I've got this absolutely straight: you're saying that we should read these articles that they may add weight to your arguments for the existence of a non-existant celestial body BUT at the same time you YOURSELF do not consider the source credible or reliable and yet they remain the best "objective" resources at your disposal?

And that further, upon reading the articles we find that neither can actually be applied to you arguments without some seriously imaginative leaps of logic combined with utter denial of the most basic facts already discussed by myself and others in this thread?

Please hang up and try your call again.

 

[auntiegrav]

So let me see if I've got this absolutely straight: you're saying that we should read these articles that they may add weight to your arguments for the existence of a non-existant celestial body BUT at the same time you YOURSELF do not consider the source credible or reliable and yet they remain the best "objective" resources at your disposal?

And that further, upon reading the articles we find that neither can actually be applied to you arguments without some seriously imaginative leaps of logic combined with utter denial of the most basic facts already discussed by myself and others in this thread?

Please hang up and try your call again.

Yeah, I had a long response to that post, but decided it just was a waste of time. Especially when you start trying to figure the orbital distance (600 times the Earth's orbit radius--Pluto is at 39) and how much it affects our observations of other stars, and how obvious it would have already been if there was something orbiting the sun at that distance that was bigger than Jupiter.

Lots of things to pick at and little time to do it.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I too had a long reply, but decided it was a waste. Capn touched on some of it. I'll just throw in how just as George seemed to want us to question the Wash.Post, we should question him too.

Also, I did do a search, on Nibiru. Not the new planetoid, or planet, since I'm well aware of those.

He called Mogwa a troll, yet insults us "lazy people".

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I would like to read anything one has that deals with the issue of how cold or dark the planet would be if it existed, and how an intelligent species could evolve there. One of the reasons I stopped taking Sitchin seriously is due to this problem. Perhaps it's been addressed and I just haven't read or heard about it.

 

[George Hayduke]

I too had a long reply, but decided it was a waste. Capn touched on some of it. I'll just throw in how just as George seemed to want us to question the Wash.Post, we should question him too.

Also, I did do a search, on Nibiru. Not the new planetoid, or planet, since I'm well aware of those.

He called Mogwa a troll, yet insults us "lazy people".

Hey man, in his first book of the seven book series Sitchin asks a rhetorical question that if the Anunnaki from Nibiru guided evolution here then who guided evolution there? There's something of a pattern here, where beings from outside the theater of evolution step in from time to time and nudge things along. My opinion on this is soon, as in within the decade, we will be on par with the Anunnaki, and we will start doing similar things, colonizing various planets and becoming engaged in their affairs. That's the future, in my opinion.

My point stands on the WP article-linx. They confirm that astronomers have located a body perhaps as big as Jupiter on the outskirts of this solar system. At the same time you have to approach every article they write as propaganda. So while they seek to give you the info the establishment wants you to have, they are also engaged in a longtime perception management operation. All major news sources are engaged in this game. For example, surely you notced that CNN is now reporting on the Chupacabra-incidents in TX that LMH reported earlier. The AP ran a story on it as well. So it's like they keep us on a drip-IV of real information mixed with propaganda. The Truth is that some unknown beastie that lives on the blood of animals was hit by a car in Texas and a woman has its head in her freezer. The propaganda is that the AP and CNN cannot bring themselves to interview a single UFO-researcher/Paranormal-event-researcher who has been looking into Chupacabras for a decade now. Instead they bring in some wacko who wants us to believe that the Chupacabra is a mangy gray wolf. They report on the event because they know that in the near future these sorts of events will be undeniable. But they spin it the way they are told to keep the masses calm and keep you and me playing ball in a game that benefits a minute minority at what will soon amount to an incredible human cost.

My point is the establishment press will never report honestly on some things. They're too busy protecting the illusions necessary for you to have the mindset that you have to report the Truth. You have to learn to decode the news, Cap'n. If you haven't figured that out yet then it is useless for you to talk to me. The newspapers are lying to you. But there is truth in every lie. Catch my drift? The Truth is they've seen Nibiru. The lie is that, oh, it's nothing worth thinking about; nothing to see here, they say. Why do they say that? Because if 7B people found out tomorrow that "god" was returning on a planet NASA has been monitoring for 20 years and that Earth's history is nothing but an elongated story of life in a labor camp, a gold-procuring operation thrown in motion by what we've been brainwashed to call "aliens," then watch as society crumbles and anarchy reigns. What I'm saying is so far they've told us so many lies that they now can only tell lies to make the complex web of former lies make sense.

I shouldn't have to say these things. If you are legitimate paranormal/UFO/IAC/alien-affairs/exopolitics researcher then you know that the mainstream media is an organ of the establishment tasked with the political institutionalization, aka the brainwashing, of the masses. Folks who think that it takes a NY Times article declaring that "Nibiru has been discovered" for Sitchin to have been accurate are waiting for the fox in the henhouse to morph into a rooster.

 

[CapnG]

My point is the establishment press will never report honestly on some things. They're too busy protecting the illusions necessary for you to have the mindset that you have to report the Truth. You have to learn to decode the news, Cap'n. If you haven't figured that out yet then it is useless for you to talk to me. The newspapers are lying to you. But there is truth in every lie. Catch my drift?

One last time George: If Nibiru is real, EVERYONE should be able to see it by now... with ordinary telescopes, hell probably WITH THE NAKED EYE. I'm not talking about the media and I'm not talking about scientific "experts". You brought up the articles and you are cherry picking them to suit your purposes. All I'm talking about is YOU and ME going outside at night and looking up. See anything unsual? NO? Me either.

If you want to believe there's a Nibiru, fine, some people want to believe there's a tooth fairy. Who am I to shatter those illusions?

 

[George Hayduke]

Nibiru will come through the night skies of the Southern hemisphere to begin with; that according to Sumerian texts and the Old Testament, according to Sitchin. Secondly, you have no idea, none, where it is or how fast it is moving or what it's trajectory will be, whether or not it radiates, absorbs or reflects light, whether or not it is now aligned and thus hidden behind other planets or whatnot. As I've said the ETA Sitchin puts on it is 2085 and that might indeed be the first time, the soonest, that it can be seen with the naked eye by people living south of the equator. To sum, you've got nothing. But keep posting, anyway. I need to hone my arguments and it's proven that a knife can be sharpened against a stone.

 

[CapnG]

Nibiru will come through the night skies of the Southern hemisphere to begin with; that according to Sumerian texts and the Old Testament, according to Sitchin.

And nobody lives in the southern hemisphere? And none of them have telescopes. Nice try. Next!

Secondly, you have no idea, none, where it is or how fast it is moving or what it's trajectory will be, whether or not it radiates, absorbs or reflects light, whether or not it is now aligned and thus hidden behind other planets or whatnot.

It ain't doing lightspeed, it's trajectory can't be a straight line, only black holes absorb light and the other planets are constantly moving on their own making any occlusion temporary at BEST. Pathetic. Next!

As I've said the ETA Sitchin puts on it is 2085 and that might indeed be the first time, the soonest, that it can be seen with the naked eye by people living south of the equator.

Impossible by the very definition of YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS. I said it before, I'll say it again; unless it's going to teleport into orbit, there's NO WAY we would not have seen it by now. Hopeless! NEXT!

To sum, you've got nothing. But keep posting, anyway. I need to hone my arguments and it's proven that a knife can be sharpened against a stone.

Dream on. You couldn't cut warm butter in a million years of sharpening with those arguments, even going up against "blockheads" like me.