Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
100 has got to be too low. Based on some old polls, even 1,000 seems an underestimate.
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Nick Redfern's New Book Sounds Intriguing!
- Thread starter Christopher O'Brien
- Start date
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100 has got to be too low. Based on some old polls, even 1,000 seems an underestimate.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
One thing that has struck me since people started talking about this book is the disparity between mainstream Christian thought and any notion of soul-eaters and the like. There simply isn't anything like that in the Bible. Like I've discussed before in another thread, the Bible is interpreted in so many different ways by many different groups however there is a long tradition with a somewhat consistent narrative that runs through both Catholic and Protestant Christian belief systems as well as those who few themselves as independent from both of those or non-denominational churches. Namely that the god of the Bible has already defeated Satan and his minions who spend a lot time either chained in a pit or thrown into a lake of fire. The "devil" of the Bible is not the devil of popular myth and Hollywood productions. That is to say he is not portrayed as red suited, horned, and carrying a pitchfork.
Perhaps as I finish reading the book it will become more clear exactly what "flavor" of Christianity the C.E. favor and what their theological underpinnings might be.
Perhaps as I finish reading the book it will become more clear exactly what "flavor" of Christianity the C.E. favor and what their theological underpinnings might be.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
I still can't. I assume this is just the latest scam to muddy the whole UFO field.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
People in every walk of life, even the military and government, hold religious and personal beliefs that outside of their immediate context, would appear to be irrational. Its when those personal beliefs bleed over into public policy and action that things get dodgy.
While its true Nick might been taken for a ride, I have no doubt in my mind that there are people in positions of power and influence that hold religiously based views many of us would find bizarre and repugnant. I refer you to The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Powerby Jeff Sharlet.
I don't doubt that such a group could have existed and been taken seriously by members of the military and civilian government already held under the sway of a preexisting religious belief. I don't doubt that for a second. I have met and/or worked with extremely intelligent and serious minded individuals who bought the story their religious training had instilled in them hook, line, and sinker. Sometimes these things just don't really make sense.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
I think so. Many people have.
True, there was a report that Bush based his invasion of Iraq on a demonic view of Saddam or some such....
..but this just seems to go too far. "Soul eating demons..." gimmee a break.
Btw what is the book's take on Roswell? Does the "Collins Elite" say it was a fake event to get us to think they're ETs when they're "really" demons?
Kandinsky
Curious Cat
I think so. Many people have.
..but this just seems to go too far. "Soul eating demons..." gimmee a break.
Listen to the interview I posted or read the second interview. Nick's stumbled on the group and has a bunch of FOIA docs to support the existence of the individuals and their 'think tank.'
They mention Roswell in an intriguing way.
The opening page of the book has a caveat that he isn't making any extraordinary claims and is simply passing on the stories.
The group existed in the middle of the last century and seem to have had a similar amount of influence to the myriad think tanks we have to put up with today. 'Think tanks' are just diluted lobby groups with agendas. Similar groups advocate more cabbage in the national diet in the same way these religious fundamentalists sought more Old Testament BS in the national diet. Call it roughage.
Maybe it's all BS...or maybe a group of like-minded guys tried to promote their notions that UFOs are demonic hordes intent on overthrowing God? I can believe either possibility and a few more. That some people in the intelligence community once shared the same kind of hysteria as a schoolgirl pyjama party with ouija boards doesn't seem unbelievable.
Dark Matter's Radio - Downloads
My interview with Redfern is up and available to stream or download. Check the top of the page under Monday.
Decker
My interview with Redfern is up and available to stream or download. Check the top of the page under Monday.
Decker
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Hey Don, any word on if you're ever be getting an iTunes feed? That would make the download process for your shows that much easier.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
I suspect it's a carefully orchestrated scam to compound UFOlogy's credibility problems.
:question:As cover, if/when the whole tale comes apart, just like his Japanese POW notion?
You'd think intelligence people, at least, would be least prone to that. Or they wouldn't have clearances.
I have done nothing concerning itunes Angelo. I am unaware of how that procedure operates or how to set it up. To tell you the truth, I am consumed by simply setting up guests, doing the research I have to do and keeping the mechanics of the show running. I have no staff, I am the staff.
Decker
Kandinsky
Curious Cat
#1 It could be, but I doubt it based on Nick's account of the story. Read or listen to the interviews.
#2 Listen to the interview. He explains why.
#3 Listen to the interview.
You could be right in your points, but I get the impression you haven't listened to the interview or RTFA.
Don's just uploaded his own interview with Nick about the book too. I haven't listened to it yet, it's for the drive to work tomorrow.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I found it really interesting that Nick was contacted by the whistle-blowing "Mr. Duke" after talking to a AFOSI agent on the phone. Have we seen AFOSI in the "perception control" business before?
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Kandinsky
Curious Cat
We can't rule out the possibility of another BS mission into the field. On the other hand, the elements of the story are a very poor reflection on these guys. Instead of spreading BS like the Dulce Papers and similar, this identifies a section of intelligence, military and government as like a bunch of young girls hiding behind a cushion during scary movies.
To me, it isn't surprising to think of such people entertaining fringe beliefs. In the 50s, how many intelligence, military and government employees were Klansmen?
In terms of it being a new idea, it isn't. The 'UFOs are demons' idea is as old as the subject. There's a letter in Flying Saucer Review from 1955-56 that makes the claim too. I only remember it, because the guy wrote it almost 60 years ago from a few miles from where I grew up. I considered going to see if he was still alive and show him a copy of his letter.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Question for Nick:
On page 43 Parson's "Babalon Working" is described as "successful" however previously on pages 21-22 it appears as though it was never completed, that is to say the "moonchild" was never produced. Everything I've read about Parsons and Hubbard previously never attributed them with any success in these things. Was Duke saying it was successful or was that you? It was unclear to me at any rate.
---------- Post added at 08:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------
I'm almost half way through the book now and it appears that Mr. Duke produced several documents for Nick that back his narrative up somewhat. Those documents could have been fabricated to hoax Nick but it seems unlikely.
I don't think its "disinformation." I think it is revealing the incredible lengths that military and governments will go through in an attempt to get an advantage. I think it is also an object lesson in credulity. The members of C.E. had to take so many things on "faith" and believe so many improbable things just to have a foundation where their theories could be laid. The crux of the thing so far seems to be a belief that Parsons, Crowley, and Hubbard were actually onto something real and that they were able to produce results through their magical pursuits. Everything I've read on those three over the years leads me in an entirely different direction in my opinion of their knowledge, power, and abilities however.
On page 43 Parson's "Babalon Working" is described as "successful" however previously on pages 21-22 it appears as though it was never completed, that is to say the "moonchild" was never produced. Everything I've read about Parsons and Hubbard previously never attributed them with any success in these things. Was Duke saying it was successful or was that you? It was unclear to me at any rate.
---------- Post added at 08:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------
I'm almost half way through the book now and it appears that Mr. Duke produced several documents for Nick that back his narrative up somewhat. Those documents could have been fabricated to hoax Nick but it seems unlikely.
I don't think its "disinformation." I think it is revealing the incredible lengths that military and governments will go through in an attempt to get an advantage. I think it is also an object lesson in credulity. The members of C.E. had to take so many things on "faith" and believe so many improbable things just to have a foundation where their theories could be laid. The crux of the thing so far seems to be a belief that Parsons, Crowley, and Hubbard were actually onto something real and that they were able to produce results through their magical pursuits. Everything I've read on those three over the years leads me in an entirely different direction in my opinion of their knowledge, power, and abilities however.
Nick Redfern
Paranormal Novice
Hey Guys
Cheers for the comments re my Final Events book. I don't personally think the story is disinformation.
My personal view is that, just like Projects Sign, Grudge, and Blue Book, the Collins Elite project that concluded UFOs have demonic origins, was simply one of a number of groups within the official world that reached a conclusion about UFOs - and that's all.
For example, there's the story about Project Grudge (in the late 40s) preparing a report suggesting the ET angle may have been correct. But, in the same time frame, other people in officialdom were wondering about the possibility of it being the Russians, or a secret domestic military project. While Blue Book finally closed its doors with a statement to the effect that nothing extraordinary was occurring at all. And the Collins Elite concluded demons.
So, in other words and in my own personal view, like all the other groups, the conclusions of the Collins Elite (in terms of the origin of what is undoubtedly a real UFO phenomenon), were dictated by analysis of data combined with a specific belief system - in their case a Christian belief system.
Where I do agree with the group, however, is that the UFO phenomenon is both deceptive and manipulative. Does that make it demonic? In my view no. But it should make us cautious of its intentions.
I basically wrote the book to demonstrate that there are think-tank type groups in the Intel world/military/government who have reached these particular demonic conclusions. But without hard evidence (rather than relying to a great extent on belief via interpretation), we need to realize that this is no different from someone else saying UFOs are from other dimensions, or from the future, or are the last vestiges of an ancient earth-based race. The only difference - and whick makes it a bit more significant - is that these are government people, not UFO researchers like us.
It all comes down to belief, because we lack the hard answers. And government think-tanks can be as belief-driven as anyone else. And the Collins Elite is an absolutely perfect example of this!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
On another matter, an earlier poster wrote the following: "About Redfern's works, analytical readers typically don't tend to find writers like him very credible. [I've purchased and read three of his books, in case someone asks.] He writes so many volumes in such short a time, that it's clear he cannot be doing cautious, in-depth studies of his interesting subjects. Otherwise it would be longer between his books, and we'd learn a lot more that's reliable from their pages. Mr. Redfern's books read, for me, as if they're just highly rushed 'pot boilers' -- interesting, but ultimately unsatisfying. They read easily but are soon forgotten."
Regardless of whether or not people like my books or not, or are satisfied by them or not, I don't actually crank out a lot of books all at once.
It may look like that, but here's the facts, so that people will understand before making a comment about my writing timetables. In the past 9 months, I have had 3 books published: Contactees (published by New Page Books); Monsters of Texas (published by CFZ Press); and Final Events (published by Anomalist Books).
Now, I agree, that does make it look like I have cranked out 3 books at lightning speed. But, I haven't. All 3 books were published by different publishers, but the important fact here is that, purely due to coincidence, the 3 publishers all chose to publish the books within a few months of each other - which makes it look like I'm churning them out non-stop - but they were actually written across 3 years, and Monsters of Texas was co-authored, so I only had to do half the writing.
Similarly, after my 3rd book was published in early 1999, I didn't have any more books published until late 2003, but in that 4-year period of non-publishing, I wrote 2 books, Strange Secrets and Celebrity Secrets. But those 2 books were then published within a year of each other. So, again, it looks like they were written quickly (because of the publisher's schedule to get them out quick and on the back of each other), but writing 2 books across 4-years (when you are, like me, writing 7am to 5pm monday to friday of every week), is not rushing things.
Cheers for the comments re my Final Events book. I don't personally think the story is disinformation.
My personal view is that, just like Projects Sign, Grudge, and Blue Book, the Collins Elite project that concluded UFOs have demonic origins, was simply one of a number of groups within the official world that reached a conclusion about UFOs - and that's all.
For example, there's the story about Project Grudge (in the late 40s) preparing a report suggesting the ET angle may have been correct. But, in the same time frame, other people in officialdom were wondering about the possibility of it being the Russians, or a secret domestic military project. While Blue Book finally closed its doors with a statement to the effect that nothing extraordinary was occurring at all. And the Collins Elite concluded demons.
So, in other words and in my own personal view, like all the other groups, the conclusions of the Collins Elite (in terms of the origin of what is undoubtedly a real UFO phenomenon), were dictated by analysis of data combined with a specific belief system - in their case a Christian belief system.
Where I do agree with the group, however, is that the UFO phenomenon is both deceptive and manipulative. Does that make it demonic? In my view no. But it should make us cautious of its intentions.
I basically wrote the book to demonstrate that there are think-tank type groups in the Intel world/military/government who have reached these particular demonic conclusions. But without hard evidence (rather than relying to a great extent on belief via interpretation), we need to realize that this is no different from someone else saying UFOs are from other dimensions, or from the future, or are the last vestiges of an ancient earth-based race. The only difference - and whick makes it a bit more significant - is that these are government people, not UFO researchers like us.
It all comes down to belief, because we lack the hard answers. And government think-tanks can be as belief-driven as anyone else. And the Collins Elite is an absolutely perfect example of this!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
On another matter, an earlier poster wrote the following: "About Redfern's works, analytical readers typically don't tend to find writers like him very credible. [I've purchased and read three of his books, in case someone asks.] He writes so many volumes in such short a time, that it's clear he cannot be doing cautious, in-depth studies of his interesting subjects. Otherwise it would be longer between his books, and we'd learn a lot more that's reliable from their pages. Mr. Redfern's books read, for me, as if they're just highly rushed 'pot boilers' -- interesting, but ultimately unsatisfying. They read easily but are soon forgotten."
Regardless of whether or not people like my books or not, or are satisfied by them or not, I don't actually crank out a lot of books all at once.
It may look like that, but here's the facts, so that people will understand before making a comment about my writing timetables. In the past 9 months, I have had 3 books published: Contactees (published by New Page Books); Monsters of Texas (published by CFZ Press); and Final Events (published by Anomalist Books).
Now, I agree, that does make it look like I have cranked out 3 books at lightning speed. But, I haven't. All 3 books were published by different publishers, but the important fact here is that, purely due to coincidence, the 3 publishers all chose to publish the books within a few months of each other - which makes it look like I'm churning them out non-stop - but they were actually written across 3 years, and Monsters of Texas was co-authored, so I only had to do half the writing.
Similarly, after my 3rd book was published in early 1999, I didn't have any more books published until late 2003, but in that 4-year period of non-publishing, I wrote 2 books, Strange Secrets and Celebrity Secrets. But those 2 books were then published within a year of each other. So, again, it looks like they were written quickly (because of the publisher's schedule to get them out quick and on the back of each other), but writing 2 books across 4-years (when you are, like me, writing 7am to 5pm monday to friday of every week), is not rushing things.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Nick,
I'm finding Final Events to be a good read and appreciate the presence of footnotes and an index. As a professional writer myself I believe I can recognize and appreciate a well crafted book. I for one think you did an excellent job with both this book and with Contactees. Anyone with any notion about what it actually takes to produce such a work understands that the time and effort are not trivial. I'm sure you spent a great deal of time, effort, and money in obtaining the FOIA documents alone not counting the time and effort spent analyzing them.
I think you are going to be talking about this book for a long time to come.
I think that is the best way to think of this business. One of the more curious aspects of the whole thing to me is the willingness of AFOSI to set you up with a former C.E. member. What does that really mean I wonder?
I'm finding Final Events to be a good read and appreciate the presence of footnotes and an index. As a professional writer myself I believe I can recognize and appreciate a well crafted book. I for one think you did an excellent job with both this book and with Contactees. Anyone with any notion about what it actually takes to produce such a work understands that the time and effort are not trivial. I'm sure you spent a great deal of time, effort, and money in obtaining the FOIA documents alone not counting the time and effort spent analyzing them.
I think you are going to be talking about this book for a long time to come.
I think that is the best way to think of this business. One of the more curious aspects of the whole thing to me is the willingness of AFOSI to set you up with a former C.E. member. What does that really mean I wonder?
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Readers of the Final Events might find this video series interesting. Here we have three Christian guys who are certainly bought into the premise that UFOs are demonic. I don't buy into a word these guys have to say mind you, but it is interesting to listen to in relation to the discussion about Final Events. I'm sure there are probably some other videos and interviews out there that would relate to the book as well. I encourage folks to post links to those as they find them.
The guy mistakenly attributes John Keel with a doctorate. Perhaps he just misspoke because he was rattling off a list and actually knows better.
The guy mistakenly attributes John Keel with a doctorate. Perhaps he just misspoke because he was rattling off a list and actually knows better.