Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
1. Dilutes the definition/concept of the word and the relationship
2. Not allowing it doesn't keep gays and lesbians from having the benefits of marriage
3. Marriage is anthropologically and historically in human history between a man and a woman, or plural in some cases, but not same sex
4. Not allowing marriage doesn't stop gays/lesbians having a loving relationship
5. Breaks cultural tradition of what marriage has been/ is
6. Even where in history homosexuality is permitted or even accepted as a norm, formal marriage is between the opposite sex
7. Marriage is for reproduction
8. Marriage is heterosexual and additionally is for political alliance between kingdoms, tribes, etc.
9. Marriage is for children and additionally for passing on culture and for the cohesiveness of society
10. There have always been conditions/limits/requirements for marriage in societies, nations, cultures
11. I have read studies that purportedly show that statistically homosexuals have shorter life spans due to disease, and that in the west HIV is said to be spread mostly by gay and bisexual men
12. Children should be raised by a father and mother
13. What, exactly, is the point of legal civil marriage per se if all other benefits are available, health insurance, etc., from civil unions?
14. If this exception is allowed, what other reasons might people demand the right of legal civil marriage?
Bigamy, plural marriage are illegal.
15. Children may be confused by being raised by two parents of the same sex
Firstly, I acknowledge that you say this was an academic exercise and not a true reflection of your own ideology. I also accept that the above list is supposed to be void of religious concerns. Now, I would like to comment on each.
I do not understand what this means. How does a same sex couple dilute the legal/social concept of a marriage? To me this dilution you speak of will always harken back to religious acceptance or lack thereof.1. Dilutes the definition/concept of the word and the relationship.
This is absolutely false. It hinders them from tax benefits, Insurance benefits, social categorization, credit consolidation, and other benefits currently reserved for "Next of Kin" or "Spouse" designations.2. Not allowing it doesn't keep gays and lesbians from having the benefits of marriage
The concept of "marriage" has evolved over time. Woman were once considered property. Interracial couplings were forbidden. Non-Comptable religious limitations were imposed. Et Cetera ad nauseum.3. Marriage is anthropologically and historically in human history between a man and a woman, or plural in some cases, but not same sex
It also doesnt stop China from producing low cost foot wear, or locusts from swarming. But it does stop them from taking full advantage of all manner of social advantages afforded married couples and their families. This one is really about restriction by refusal to acknowledge. If I were to tell you that you had to go throughout life unable to speak or write the letters "Q" and "S" it would not hinder your personal appreciation of art and literature. But you would soon find it overwhelmingly restrictive. Its the same concept.4. Not allowing marriage doesn't stop gays/lesbians having a loving relationship
Again, the institution of marriage is ALWAYS evolving. Lets look at how the typical family structure was perceived in the 1850's. The man ran the house. Socially the wife ceased to be acknowledged without first being linked to the man. Many a census record lists the wife as simply Mrs. Johnson. Even in the event of her husbands death she would be known socially as "The Widow Johnson". This concept was not truly broken until the late 1950's to early 1960's. We still hear echos of it today. My point is simply that you can choose any two eras in the history of marriage and the concepts will differ. Sometimes greatly and sometimes with more subtlety. But they will differ. This is representative of a social evolution of the concept. As a mental exercise write down your current concept of what a marriage is and then present this to the average Quaker of the mid 17th century. Are those concepts compatible?5. Breaks cultural tradition of what marriage has been/ is
I am going to assume that you are speaking mostly of Ancient Greek and Roman societies. To this I would say that the concept of legal marriage was not to consummate love but to declare a legal line of succession of assets from parent to offspring. Since same sex relationships would not generate a line of secession for asset transfer upon death, the concept was not expanded.6. Even where in history homosexuality is permitted or even accepted as a norm, formal marriage is between the opposite sex
Hmmm, then I guess the elderly, infirm, and sterile among society should likewise be denied the designation regardless of meeting the appropriate gender restrictions? This is just a silly argument.7. Marriage is for reproduction
This just looks like your trying to fill out a list of ten items. Its silly and has no bearing in the modern world. Sure, in the European courts of 1542 it would certainly be applicable but in 2012 it is laughable.8. Marriage is heterosexual and additionally is for political alliance between kingdoms, tribes, etc.
We have already addressed the first part of this. As far as passing on culture and the cohesiveness of society.... I am unsure what the heck you are talking about. Gay and lesbian relationships are part of our culture and in no way threaten the cohesiveness of our society.9. Marriage is for children and additionally for passing on culture and for the cohesiveness of society
Personally, I'll never forget the carnage that played out in the streets and common areas whenever gay couples married in New York. Oh the horror! Wait... thats right... none of that ever happened! Life and society in New York continue to function perfectly fine. As it did in Connecticut, D.C., Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont.
Yes. But, those conditions/limits/requirements have always evolved to reflect the then current societal trend. The concept has always been fluid.10. There have always been conditions/limits/requirements for marriage in societies, nations, cultures
Urban myth. The spread of HIV is not restrictive to sexual orientation. It is spread primarily by sexual promiscuity and indifference to preventive measures. The largest At Risk groups I am aware of are intravenous drug users and sex workers.11. I have read studies that purportedly show that statistically homosexuals have shorter life spans due to disease, and that in the west HIV is said to be spread mostly by gay and bisexual men
Social acceptance. Equality. The concept you have described is not a new argument. The last time I heard it was when it was applied to racial segregation. Separate but equal. Which, I hope we can agree, was an F'ing ridiculous concept to begin with. Lets not repeat that same absurd mistake.13. What, exactly, is the point of legal civil marriage per se if all other benefits are available, health insurance, etc., from civil unions?
Different concepts. Marriage to farm animals, pieces of machinery, or to bacon are also not covered in the same sex marriage argument.14. If this exception is allowed, what other reasons might people demand the right of legal civil marriage?
Bigamy, plural marriage are illegal.
*GASP* Hold on! You mean I might have to teach my child about confusing concepts or have a running dialogue concerning complex social and societal issues????? Screw that! I'd rather watch American Idol.15. Children may be confused by being raised by two parents of the same sex