October 3, 2010 Show - Final Events

[Nick Redfern]

The scary thing in all that is that belief can indeed be that powerful. The religious right seems to be rising in the U.S. in the last years too (the only movie that truly scared me in these last years was 'Jesus Camp'), though I can't really evaluate that.

The Government tie-in really does mystify me, but as you wrote, "Governments have been known to fund unusual topics from time to time".
Have you ever looked into the theories of Austin Osman Spare ? All goes back to Freud and Jung and the idea of a collective unconscious I think.
That's one thing that actually makes me want to drink a beer on 01.01.2013. or was that 22.12.2012 ? Beer anyways.

Yeah, I have looked into Spare, there's a useful website on him and his work, at austinspare.co.uk

I really do think that it's the case the Govt funds odd stuff that led to this whole story. I wouldn't want people to think the Collins Elite is some huge entity, employing thousands of people. It would be absurd to think something like that could ever stay under the radar for 60 days, never mind 60 years.

Rather, it seems to have been a loose-knit group of maybe a couple of dozen people at a time, some of who weren't even officially on-board but who were consulted. And, as a result, the group was very small, a small budget (for the first couple of decades at least), and whose work for a long time was based around studying ancient texts on demonology and applying this to ufology, and making occasional approaches to UFO witnesses, abductees etc.

So, a think-tank like this, I believe, could easily exist for such a long time, because its work is actually quite limited and its staff quite small in number. The significant thing, however, was not its size and scope, but that its conclusions apparently influenced a lot of senior players in the Reagan/Bush (both pa and Dubya) era.

 

[Ezechiel]

Anyway, no I don't despise Western Christianity. I don't mind what religious beliefs anyone holds or doesn't hold, whether they may be Christians, Buddhists or whatever - just as long as they don't force their views on others. It's the arrogance of someone saying their religion is right and everyone else's is wrong that I strongly disagree with.

And what I DO despise is when people use religion to manipulate and control other people via fear and guilt. Western Christianity is very good at doing this. Fundamentalist Christianity is now getting an iron-grip on the US military - which is an area in which it should play no role at all.

So, that's what I despise: the way certain figures use Christianity as a tool of manipulation.

Are these people even conscious of what they are doing ? Distributing bibles in Swahili.... in Iraq !!! .... can you imagine something more provocative than that LOLOL. Mind blowing !!!

Listen to this guy on you tube... he's crazy and he doesn't even know it !!!

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/05/soldiers_handing_out_swahili_b.php

 

[trainedobserver]

And, as a result, the group was very small, a small budget (for the first couple of decades at least), and whose work for a long time was based around studying ancient texts on demonology and applying this to ufology, and making occasional approaches to UFO witnesses, abductees etc.

It seems like such a thing would require a "champion" that would keep it active with resources available to it. Have you given that any thought? Is there any clue to who that might have been?

 

[Ezechiel]

So, a think-tank like this, I believe, could easily exist for such a long time, because its work is actually quite limited and its staff quite small in number. The significant thing, however, was not its size and scope, but that its conclusions apparently influenced a lot of senior players in the Reagan/Bush (both pa and Dubya) era.

Bang on ! IMHO, the 'In God we trust' U.S. is a very long way from secular and the christian 'faith factor' shows its ugly face in the orientations and subjects the government wishes to address or squash.

If the long arm of the church can implement stem cell research bans (through evangelical lobbyists and born-again presidents)... imagine what it can do to stuff like investigating ETs

 

[xLordSummerislex]

Actually, think about of all this, it reminds of me the Satanic Ritual Abuses scares of the 80s/early 90s, which was (in the UK at least), largely fanned by fundamentalist Christians in social work and other child protection agencies, which is a good example of people in public services allowing their religious beliefs to cloud their professional judgement. There's a good article about it here:
When Satan came to Pembroke | CFI Blogs
The parallels with the UFO phenomena are fairly strong- particularly in the role of recovered memories, allegations of cover ups etc.
In the context of what other fundamentalist Christians were up to at the time, I guess the tale of the Collins Elite isn't unprecedented. Be interesting to see if the book coming out encourages anyone else to come forward.

 

[CapnG]

They are being indoctrinated in basic training. Maybe not with Jesus but with something. I see little difference.

The difference is the military is a volunteer service and if you sign up you know what you're in for. Religion on the other hand is thrust upon people without their consent, through family, through society, through whatever. To my mind that's a big whopping difference.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

The difference is the military is a volunteer service and if you sign up you know what you're in for. Religion on the other hand is thrust upon people without their consent, through family, through society, through whatever. To my mind that's a big whopping difference.

Ask all the military conscripts veterans (including children and women) during WW2, Vietnam etc in many nations around the World! Sending best wishes to all former and current serving USA & Coalition forces around the World,

Blessing To You CapG,
BF

 

[stphrz]

The difference is the military is a volunteer service and if you sign up you know what you're in for. Religion on the other hand is thrust upon people without their consent, through family, through society, through whatever. To my mind that's a big whopping difference.

Right now, in the U.S., yes it is a volunteer service. But It hasn't always been, and may not always be in the future. In fact militaries in general, all around the world have a significant history of drafts/forced service. In many countries, service is not voluntary even today.

But even the case you cite, the same pressures that pertain to religion also sometimes apply to the military. Many families have long histories of military service and younger members are brought up being told what is expected of them.

There are also other pressures; from peers, from economic circumstance, and in some cases from society. Just like religion.

Then there's the bait and switch angle. Yes, someone signing up for the army should know what they are getting themselves into. Unfortunately this isn't always the case. Sometimes they are outright lied to. Some recruiters use high pressure sales tactics and make promises they have no business making. The victim only finds this out later. Again this sounds similar to recruiting by cults. By the time you are in, it's too late and you are trapped.

 

[CapnG]

Obviously I'm only talking about the modern US military. The only reason I brought up the soviets earlier was because I wanted to examine the religious element, not the national one.

There are also other pressures; from peers, from economic circumstance, and in some cases from society. Just like religion.

No one is born into the military, pressure or no pressure. If you're suggesting that voluntary enlistment by an adult is somehow equivelant to religious practices like circumcision or baptism which are inflicted on infants then you and I or on very different wavelengths indeed.

Then there's the bait and switch angle. Yes, someone signing up for the army should know what they are getting themselves into. Unfortunately this isn't always the case. Sometimes they are outright lied to. Some recruiters use high pressure sales tactics and make promises they have no business making. The victim only finds this out later. Again this sounds similar to recruiting by cults. By the time you are in, it's too late and you are trapped.

All that may be unfortunately true but (and I hate to have to say it like this) anyone who signs up for military service and doesn't understand what that really means is an idiot and I have no sympathy for idiots.

 

[stphrz]

No one is born into the military, pressure or no pressure. If you're suggesting that voluntary enlistment by an adult is somehow equivelant to religious practices like circumcision or baptism which are inflicted on infants then you and I or on very different wavelengths indeed.

Yep. Different wavelengths.

Ceremonies are not synonomous with indoctrination. Indoctrination is what you are told to believe. A baby getting some water poured on its head or his little touque snipped isn't telling him to believe anything. That comes later.

All that may be unfortunately true but (and I hate to have to say it like this) anyone who signs up for military service and doesn't understand what that really means is an idiot and I have no sympathy for idiots.

The stupidity of the mark does not give moral sanction to the con man.

 

[CapnG]

Ceremonies are not synonomous with indoctrination. Indoctrination is what you are told to believe.

I challenge you to seperate the two. Define for me what indoctrination without ritual or ceremony is.

A baby getting some water poured on its head or his little touque snipped isn't telling him to believe anything. That comes later.

No... no... your missing the larger picture. Ask yourself who's doing it to the baby and why they're doing it and then redress the issue of indoctrination as a generational affair.

The stupidity of the mark does not give moral sanction to the con man.

The military isn't a back-alley game of three card monty and the age of enlistment is not 10. To pretend otherwise is grossly over-simplifying matters. A person still buying into the whole "king and country" line in 21st century America is a moron who has clearly chosen, irrespective of society at large to educate THEMSELVES on the matter, because (thanks largely to the interwebz) more than enough information exists to make an educated decision about enlistment.

 

[stphrz]

I challenge you to seperate the two. Define for me what indoctrination without ritual or ceremony is.

Challenge accepted. Indoctrination is simply thought reform. To replace a subject's original thoughts with the thoughts desired.

Here is a list of some indoctrination techniques. It's not an exhaustive list, but it includes the most powerful.

1. Isolation. Cut off or restrict access to the goings on in the outside world.

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

2. Propoganda. Bombard the subject with a continuous stream of "right think".

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

3. Deception. Mislead subject about the true activities, expectations and goals of the group.

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

4. Create dependency. Demand absolute loyalty. Systematically break down individuality.

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

Do you need an agenda? Yes. Do you need a plan? Yes. Do you need a schedule of reinforcement? Yes.

Do you need symbolic ritualistic ceremonies? Absolutely not.

No... no... your missing the larger picture. Ask yourself who's doing it to the baby and why they're doing it and then redress the issue of indoctrination as a generational affair.

Indoctrination can include things like rituals. But it doesn't need to. This is the point I'm trying to get across to you.

The military isn't a back-alley game of three card monty and the age of enlistment is not 10. To pretend otherwise is grossly over-simplifying matters. A person still buying into the whole "king and country" line in 21st century America is a moron who has clearly chosen, irrespective of society at large to educate THEMSELVES on the matter, because (thanks largely to the interwebz) more than enough information exists to make an educated decision about enlistment.

I agree, the stakes are a lot higher.

You don't have to be a child to succumb to indoctrination. The people who engage in the practice know this. You should too lest you get caught yourself.

An unintelligent person deserves to be taken advantage of. Got it.

Yes, there is lots and lots of information on the internet. A lot of it is wrong.

 

[CapnG]

1. Isolation. Cut off or restrict access to the goings on in the outside world.

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

2. Propoganda. Bombard the subject with a continuous stream of "right think".

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

3. Deception. Mislead subject about the true activities, expectations and goals of the group.

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

4. Create dependency. Demand absolute loyalty. Systematically break down individuality.

Ritual or special ceremony required? No.

I think you mistook my use of the word "ritual" to mean something spiritually based. I meant it in the psychological sense, such as occurs in compulsive behaviour disorders, something which is done repeatedly, often at a nigh-unconcious level. Since all four of these examples would require constant repetition to function effectively, to my mind they would fall under the canopy of ritualized behaviour. Also propaganda itself is largely (although not exclusively) based around deception, so that's kind of a half-point.

Indoctrination can include things like rituals. But it doesn't need to. This is the point I'm trying to get across to you.

To which the counter-point is a ritual doesn't always mean something you do while chanting in the dark, wearing a cloak. If you absolutley must check the door three times before you leave the house, congratulations- you have a ritual.

You don't have to be a child to succumb to indoctrination. The people who engage in the practice know this. You should too lest you get caught yourself.

We're all susceptable to influence, it's true. How susceptable is a matter of individual awareness and resistance.

Yes, there is lots and lots of information on the internet. A lot of it is wrong.

And therefore...? Maybe you didn't get where I was going (different wavelengths again) so I'll elaborate: Earlier you mentioned dishonest recruiters. I've seen this evidenced back in 2008 when some kids were being told that the Iraq war was in fact "over" and that they would be unlikely to face actual combat. That was a complete and total lie. But say for a moment the kids are dumb enough to believe it: are they not surrounded by internet and TV and other media and I don't know, PEOPLE that could remedy them of that deception? What excuse could they possibly make if they fell for it?

This is the 21st century. We have more than enough books and movies and videogames at our disposal to explain to us in painstaking detail the brutal savagery and horror of war. For anyone to cry ignorance in this day and age is simply unacceptable.

 

[Nick Redfern]

It seems like such a thing would require a "champion" that would keep it active with resources available to it. Have you given that any thought? Is there any clue to who that might have been?

TrainedObserver:

I think one of the reasons why the the group remained hidden for so long is because for a long time, they weren't an official body as such. Rather, they were a loose-knit group. And also for a long time they specifically didn't have much of a budget. I note in one section of the book re how they were complaining about the small budget. It was this that led them for many years to spend their most active times preparing reports and summaries based on their Christian perspective on open-source material, such as books on Roswell, the work of Jack Parsons, the Adamski books etc, and very occasional approaches to UFO witnesses, where the budget to do that would presumably be a flight to the area where the witness lived, hotel room etc and that's about it.

So, I think it's fair to say that although I'm still not fully sure who funded all this and under what circumstances, for years there was little funding - they really were a small, obscure group sitting in rooms going through old texts etc and trying to make sense of it. There was nothing like access to helicopters to go out an visit UFO sites, or anything like that.

A number of people have interpreted the book to mean that the Collins Elite was a huge agency or something. It wasn't. It was just a small think-tank.

 

[trainedobserver]

A number of people have interpreted the book to mean that the Collins Elite was a huge agency or something. It wasn't. It was just a small think-tank.

My impression was that they were a small group that had the ear of someone in power and influence. Their "investigation" looking for the agency with the black helicopters and the underground installations would seem to require some good connections. I think they got the wool-pulled over their eyes there for sure.

 

[Nick Redfern]

My impression was that they were a small group that had the ear of someone in power and influence. Their "investigation" looking for the agency with the black helicopters and the underground installations would seem to require some good connections. I think they got the wool-pulled over their eyes there for sure.

Yeah, you're right re the helicopters thing. As you'll know from the book, it was when they started making waves to the effect that they didn't have a big budget to allow for other work (the helicopter/installation angle), it does indeed seem that this is when their budget was increased significantly (early 80s onwards), and when they started to attract far more powerful people in the official world, and in the Reagan administration.

So, I think in the early years, their fairly small budget may have bee siphoned off something like a regular CIA budget, where perhaps they covertly funded it - which does happen a lot, where the CIA provides funding and grants to individuals and groups where it seems some advantage in doing so.

But, certainly from the 80s onwards, we would have to be talking about some agency (or agencies) having the ability to covertly channel budgets through to them. It wouldn't have been difficult, however, as we know this was the same time period with the whole Iran-Contra deal, where you have people following agendas, and off-the-record deals/payments, etc to achieve a goal.

 

[Ezechiel]

Yeah, you're right re the helicopters thing. As you'll know from the book, it was when they started making waves to the effect that they didn't have a big budget to allow for other work (the helicopter/installation angle), it does indeed seem that this is when their budget was increased significantly (early 80s onwards), and when they started to attract far more powerful people in the official world, and in the Reagan administration.

Nancy and the occult

Ronald Reagan, born-again christian ?
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ronaldreagannrbroadcasters.htm​

Our mission stretches far beyond our borders; God's family knows no borders. In your life you face daily trials, but millions of believers in other lands face far worse. They are mocked and persecuted for the crime of loving God. To every religious dissident trapped in that cold, cruel existence, we send our love and support. Our message? You are not alone; you are not forgotten; do not lose your faith and hope because someday you, too, will be free.
If the Lord -- If the Lord is our light, our strength, and our salvation, whom shall we fear? Of whom shall we be afraid? No matter where we live, we have a promise that can make all the difference, a promise from Jesus to soothe our sorrows, heal our hearts, and drive away our fears. He promised there will never be a dark night that does not end. Our "weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." He promised if our hearts are true, His love will be as sure as sunlight. And, by dying for us, Jesus showed how far our love should be ready to go: all the way.​

In that context, a big budget for the Collins elite is in sync with the growing christian environment of the times. ​

Let me set the record straight on your account: The spectacular growth of CBN [Christian Broadcasting Network] and PTI [PTL - Praise the Lord] and Trinity [Trinity Broadcasting Network], of organizations that produce religious programs for radio and television, not to mention the booming industry in Christian books, underlines a far-reaching change in our country.
Americans yearn to explore life's deepest truths. And to say their entertainment -- their idea of entertainment is sex and violence and crime is an insult to their goodness and intelligence. We are people who believe love can triumph over hate, creativity over destruction, and hope over despair. And that's why so many millions hunger for your product -- God's good news.​

Holy crap LOL​

... in a similar vein
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-08-02-column02_ST_N.htm

When it comes to religion, secular Europe and spiritual America are more than an ocean apart. So, too, when it comes to the veil.

Disclosure in the US... I think not. Demons ? maybe LOL

http://www.ilovethe80s.com/fun_facts_ptlclub.htm

 

[saucerwench]

Saucerwench:

You wrote: "I have a questi0on for you who despise, with a vengeance, Western Christianity. Do you fantasy at night (..Ya know.....) about the tall and handsome Osama Bin Laden? Just between us girls."

Oddly, I can't find the link to the original message now - maybe you deleted it.

Anyway, no I don't despise Western Christianity. I don't mind what religious beliefs anyone holds or doesn't hold, whether they may be Christians, Buddhists or whatever - just as long as they don't force their views on others. It's the arrogance of someone saying their religion is right and everyone else's is wrong that I strongly disagree with.

And what I DO despise is when people use religion to manipulate and control other people via fear and guilt. Western Christianity is very good at doing this. Fundamentalist Christianity is now getting an iron-grip on the US military - which is an area in which it should play no role at all.

So, that's what I despise: the way certain figures use Christianity as a tool of manipulation.

My fantasies? They often revolve around my wife getting it on with Abby from NCIS...

I like Abby from NCIS! (But NOT in a gay way though. Per 'Seinfeld', "Not that theres anything wrong with that....")
My fantasy has Tom Cruise wrestling with/on me, saying that he is going to kidnap me, and force me to be Scientological with him. (Not that theres anything right with that.......)
I deleted that post, cuz I decided that it felt nasty and creepy. I was being a sarcastic b***h, because I was being an unhappy camper.

 

[Martina]

And 'the rapture'? Is crapture. It was invented by Tim LaHey types. Fiction goofs.

Actually it was Cotton Mather and his son Increase who came up with that nonsense. They believed they would be "caught up in the air" when Jesus returned. It was tagged The Rapture by Philip Doddridge ( 1738 ) and John Gill ( 1748 ) in their New Testament commentaries. This was all spun out of a verse in Thessalonians: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"


Now if you take the entire Bible to the be literal word of God, and not the writings of men, which it really is, then you can quite easily buy into the Rapture doctrine. Personally I regard the verse as being the wishful thinking of an ancient religionist.

 

[tyder001]

The fact is that everybody has their way of "dealing" with life. Some are fine with the thought of the space brothers saving us from ourselves. Some find solace in the idea that God will "lift" us out of trouble. Some of us think that what "we" have seen or touched is all that ever can be real. Some think that being questioned on a message board is rude yet the people you are relating your story to don't know you "from Adam" and have no way of judging your honesty. Some people "demand" respect and call others stupid wtihout realizing that "others' have the same dignity and right to talk about their expereince as you do. What is a man/woman? A collection of brain farts? A sprit or pure consinuess? I think therefore I am? I am that I am? Folks who have heard or rather read my post before know that I think that the moment conscience thought is brought to bear on a subject that the "divine" or sprit or the ground of all being is there. I subscribe more to Sir Roger Penrose than Stephen Hawking. Yet, both are brilliant and neither are religious. Honesty I can't even 'define" myself much less "all reality." But, no I don't think we came on a ship or rather our ancestors did. No, I don't think Anybody here has EVER seen a ship from another world. But, that's my opinon and I don't know everything. But, if you tell me you spoke to your deceased ancestor I'm not gonna call you crazy cause you may have. We know little of what dreams are. Perhaps I want believe you but I want bellittle you either. If you say you saw a craft from another world I want call you crazy. But, I want give you anymore creedence than I will the person who spoke to Uncle Joe in a dream either. So, don't come here "Demanding" that people "respect" you while you belittle them. It doesn't work that way!

Secret of Respect? Ya gotta play it forward. Otherwise your just a bully full of hot air. Sound and fury signifying nothing!

Peace.!