Paracast Episode 11/18/2007 with Paul Kimball

[CapnG]

A refreshing dose of sanity this week although a bit of a downer I suppose. Paul is basically the cold shower of ufology though so that's to be expected. For the record Paul, I agree that there are such things as coincidences and that while there are genuine conspiracies the government does indeed keep things secret from us. Not telling you something isn't the same as a cover-up! Speaking of which, I'm Matt BTW.

I think you are being a bit generous when you asuage blame in some areas though. The government is after all a huge, sprawling mess. That left hands could be doing things unbeknownst to right hands is not impossible... not guaranteed, certainly not the norm but not impossible.

Skimming through the comments I found this interesting however:

Somewhere, the Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves.

What is it with this "cult of the Founders" that's sprung up lately? I know, I know, patriotism, support the troops and all that but really... and espescially odd coming from a fellow Canajun considering I often quote an American (George Carlin) when faced with such sentiment (it's about 1 min in):

[Youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=qNv-oDbBZQU[/Youtube]

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I think the US should invade Canada. Canadians are just too nice. I find this highly suspicious. There must be a conspiracy of niceness.

Or perhaps the Canadians should invade us...? I wouldn't mind if we fell under the dark shadow of a conspiracy of niceness every now and then.

LOL. That's the best suggestion I've heard in a long time. Ay!

I've posted the suggestion a few times. Take me off ignore

 

[Astroboy]

I think the US should invade Canada. Canadians are just too nice. I find this highly suspicious. There must be a conspiracy of niceness.

Or perhaps the Canadians should invade us...? I wouldn't mind if we fell under the dark shadow of a conspiracy of niceness every now and then.

LOL. That's the best suggestion I've heard in a long time. Ay!

I've posted the suggestion a few times. Take me off ignore

Sorry, Aaron. I just turned it off.

 

[Verum]

Paul, it's a breath of fresh air to hear someone with his head screwed on tight, his feet on the ground and a fondness for facts driving conclusions.

It's always been interesting to me that conspiracy theorists are almost always across-the-board conspiracists. They don't accept just one conspiracy myth but loads of them, from UFOs to fake moon landings to Martian edifices to stolen elections. When the same people have a consistently askew set of conclusions it causes me to wonder what drives those conclusions, because it isn't facts. The really interesting issue is not whether these conspiracy theories have any credibility--because they have been soundly refuted time after time for the most part--but what are the common characteristics of conspiracists. I suspect that a legitimate analysis would point to these people being generally disaffected and inclined to accept a conclusion which fits their political predispositions regardless of the clear weight of evidence and logic. It's good to hear a voice of calm and reason from time to time.

 

[Astroboy]

It's always been interesting to me that conspiracy theorists are almost always across-the-board conspiracists. They don't accept just one conspiracy myth but loads of them, from UFOs to fake moon landings to Martian edifices to stolen elections. When the same people have a consistently askew set of conclusions it causes me to wonder what drives those conclusions, because it isn't facts. The really interesting issue is not whether these conspiracy theories have any credibility--because they have been soundly refuted time after time for the most part--but what are the common characteristics of conspiracists. I suspect that a legitimate analysis would point to these people being generally disaffected and inclined to accept a conclusion which fits their political predispositions regardless of the clear weight of evidence and logic. It's good to hear a voice of calm and reason from time to time.

Whew! I thought I was the only one on this forum that believed this.

I agree with you on every point.

The most interesting thing I've found is that the level of analysis on different subjects is not equally applied. Most people dealing with the UFO subject on this forum are quite skeptical believers. They often investigate the credibility of the people in the field and accept rational explanations or evidence that counter their beliefs. There is quite a lot of independent research that is carried out. When it comes to 9/11 conspiracies or Moon Landing Hoax however this high quality investigative process seems to be thrown out the window. Despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary there is no convincing those believers. They often regurgitate information or arguments by true believers instead of looking at the arguments of skeptics or do any level of independent research.

The last DVD movie I saw regarding 9/11 pointed out unusual pods on the plane that hit one of the towers and said it wasn't a commercial plane but a military one. It took me all of two minutes to find a picture on an aviation website of the underbelly of the 767 that shows that pod was just landing gear enclosure. http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1293697&WxsIERv=Obrvat%20767-232%28OQFS%29&Wm=1&WdsYXMg=NOK%20Nve&QtODMg=Ybf%20Natryrf%20-%20Vagreangvbany%20%28YNK%20%2F%20XYNK%29&ERDLTkt=HFN%20-%20Pnyvsbeavn&ktODMp=Abirzore%2012%2C%202007&BP=0&WNEb25u=Gvz%20Jntraxarpug&xsIERvdWdsY=A750NK&MgTUQtODMgKE=Frra%20yrnivat%2025Y...yrsg%20nf%20NOK2201%20obhaq%20sbe%20Qba%20Zvthry%20Uvqnytb%20L%20Pbfgvyyn%20Vag%27y%20Nvecbeg%20%5BZZTY%5D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=394&NEb25uZWxs=2007-11-15%2015%3A15%3A49&ODJ9dvCE=750&O89Dcjdg=22227%2F83&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Obrvat%20767-200%27%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=8&prev_id=1293999&next_id=1293563&size=L
But this is typical of lack of effort to try to find the truth if it does not fit into their set of beliefs.

That is my take on things and I do not wish to get into a pointless debate with 9/11 or Moon Landing Hoax people. Let's agree to disagree.

I certainly believe there are real conspiracies in the world. Some are quite true and have been proven. Two examples come to mind: The false electricity shortage in California concocted by rogue energy traders http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DEFDD1238F93AA35757C0A9629C8B63&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/S/Shortages

And the conspiracy of oil, tire, and automobile companies to buy up public rail lines and intentionally destroy them to promote the sale of cars. While they were found guilty their fine was $1.

Oh, I forgot the one more. Cottonzway for making me read the 9/11 Commission Report. While it did cure me of insomnia it did little to convince me that the buildings did not fall because of planes crashing into them.

 

[musictomyears]

As long as citizens think and act like sheep, governments will continue to lie to us. Even on a site such as this one do we read that governments need to withhold information from us, in the interest of national security. Why? Can't we handle the truth? Are we children? Apparently so.

Governments around the world tell us - repeatedly - that UFOs pose *no* risk to national security. Then, when asked to reveal all information pertaining to UFOs, the same governments argue that they can't in the interest of - you guessed it - national security.

Hello?

Anybody still awake?



Oh, yeah. Right. There are no conspiracies. Like, making up stockpiles of WMDs to justify a war for resources. Like Enron. Like tens of thousands every day:

http://news.google.com/news?client=safari&rls=en&q=conspiracy&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn

Blindly believing in, and sucking up to, the powers that be appears to comfort the feeble minds of an awful lot of people. I guess it makes them sleep better at night.

 

[Astroboy]

Paul, it's a breath of fresh air to hear someone with his head screwed on tight, his feet on the ground and a fondness for facts driving conclusions.

Hmm, this sounds too much like "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." That is a quote from Casey Kasem the famous radio DJ who is of Arab origin. I find this suspicious.

Verum, are you accusing Paul of being a terrorist? Because we all know all Arabs are terrorists. He's also from Canada where lots of people speak French. And we know all French people hate America.

 

[Don Keyhoe-Ti]

My point was that it's almost always easier to believe in a conspiracy - that someone made something happen. It's almost like believing in God, i.e. that there has to be a reason, a design by a higher power (in this case malevolent) when something bad happens. It's a perverse comfort zone for folks that have trouble accepting that the world is a messy place, with bad people, and governments (in this case) that are capable of massive screw-ups.

I agree with this entirely. Those people who never met a conspiracy theory they didn't love are far more annoying to me than people on the other end of the spectrum, who couldn't smell a rat if it was shoved up their nose sideways. Occasionally though, a cigar is not just a cigar.

What I have trouble understanding, for example, is that people "credit" the Bush administration with being utterly incompetent when it comes to the response to Hurricane Katrina - and rightly so - but then credit it, or elements within it of being clever enough to pull of or participate in the 9/11 attacks. Amazing. You can't have it both ways.

But of course you can have it both ways! Are there any governments, organisations or individuals who don't succeed at some things but fail at others? If they're brilliant at black ops but lousy at disaster relief then maybe this just reflects their priorities.

 

[Astroboy]

Paul,

Wouldn't you agree that a mission to Mars for the sole purpose of finding life will do more for the UFO field of research than a push for disclosure?

After all, if life can exist on a nearby planet then it is likely commonplace in the universe. If life is commonplace then intelligent life may be rather common as well. If this is true then there may be many space faring civilizations out there.

We are discovering new planets outside out solar systems on a regular basis. I think the count is well over 200. Since planets seem to be common place this also means there are many possible places for life to exist.

By proving life is common place it is far easier for scientists to look at the UFO phenomenon with legitimacy.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Paul Kimball, Astroboy, Verum and anyone who thinks there is no 9/11 or UFO conspiracies are wrong. The rest are right.

 

[musictomyears]

Keeping institutionally collated information on UFOs secret is not exactly difficult, is it. 95% of the world's population doesn't give a damn anyway, and the rest... The rest, half of the time, doesn't understand the information that is available.

Governments in all parts of the world have a common motive for conspiring to keep UFO information under wraps. They are concerned that the public may not be able to handle the information. Governments are charged with controlling their respective populations, a simple fact that is often ignored. The desire to control the lives of others is the major driving force behind all political activity. In a psychological sense, this desire is borne out of insecurity - a secure mind is content with controlling itself, since it is not afraid of outside influences.

Reading through threads such as this one, it becomes clear that many people literally beg to be kept in the dark. They appear to have little faith in their own capacity to digest challenging news. When on the odd occasion governments do decide to release relevant information, and project openness, such as the Mexican government did a few weeks ago, or tentatively the Russian and French years ago, it largely gets ignored. When military and government officials come forward, such as on the recent Larry King show, and not only report on their encounters, but also mention that they were told by the CIA to never speak about them in public, it falls on deaf ears, and the "no-conspiracy Hahaha" crowd carries on regardless.

Sometimes I wonder if the governments shouldn't be applauded for sustaining the secrecy. Humans are such a volatile, irrational and generally dangerous lot. Why expose them to something they surely would make a right mess of?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

If there are no cover-ups or conspiracies, then why are we still driving petrol powered cars?
And don"t give me any of that "other sources of fuel are not economically viable or available crap!".

 

[Montclair04]

Governments in all parts of the world have a common motive for conspiring to keep UFO information under wraps. They are concerned that the public may not be able to handle the information. Governments are charged with controlling their respective populations, a simple fact that is often ignored.

When on the odd occasion governments do decide to release relevant information, and project openness, such as the Mexican government did a few weeks ago, or tentatively the Russian and French years ago, it largely gets ignored.

I think that this represents a common, and not unreasonable viewpoint. However, I have always been troubled by the fact that if this is a truly global issue, what would really prevent a country, especially from an impoverished area, from being a "whistleblower," if you will, and blow the lid on the whole thing - even without having reliable evidence? What would prevent a country from using the UFO phenomenon as a force to drive tourism dollars into the country, or at the very least focus world attention on the country in the hopes of some form of political or economic gain? I'm skeptical that the threat of force - political, military, economic, etc - from the US "empire" and other countries involved in an alleged worldwide cover-up would be enough to stop this from happening.

Any thoughts?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I think that this represents a common, and not unreasonable viewpoint. However, I have always been troubled by the fact that if this is a truly global issue, what would really prevent a country, especially from an impoverished area, from being a "whistleblower," if you will, and blow the lid on the whole thing - even without having reliable evidence? What would prevent a country from using the UFO phenomenon as a force to drive tourism dollars into the country, or at the very least focus world attention on the country in the hopes of some form of political or economic gain? I'm skeptical that the threat of force - political, military, economic, etc - from the US "empire" and other countries involved in an alleged worldwide cover-up would be enough to stop this from happening.

Probably the fact that the governments of those impoverished areas are responsible for quashing any incidents that may occur in those regions.
If they receive any aid or specialized trade deals from any of the more powerful "Empire" countries (US, UK, France, Russia, China etc.) they may have been forced or coerced into covering up or handing over any particulars (crashed UFOs etc.) to those countries.
For example there have been a myriad of very good UFO cases from South America that hardly rate a mention in so called western media but are now just surfacing.

 

[Montclair04]

Probably the fact that the governments of those impoverished areas are responsible for quashing any incidents that may occur in those regions.
If they receive any aid or specialized trade deals from any of the more powerful "Empire" countries (US, UK, France, Russia, China etc.) they may have been forced or coerced into covering up or handing over any particulars (crashed UFOs etc.) to those countries.
For example there have been a myriad of very good UFO cases from South America that hardly rate a mention in so called western media but are now just surfacing.

Yeah, I get that argument. It is fair and reasonable, but I wonder how much aid a random sub-saharan African country really gets in foreign aid that would offset any possible benefit.

Your point about good UFO cases that are not reported is well taken. I'd like to see what is out there re: Latin American, African, & Asian UFO incidents. It's just not something I hear much about.

 

[Verum]

musictomyears wrote...

As long as citizens think and act like sheep, governments will continue to lie to us.

And another thing about conspiracists...why do they all use exactly the same language as a "counter-argument", that everyone who doesn't agree with them--and that's most thinking people--are sheep??? What, is there a manual or something that all these independent-minded conspiracists go to for spewing precisely the same statements time after time, regardless of the conspiracy, evidence or even the very obvious truth?

 

[musictomyears]

Governments in all parts of the world have a common motive for conspiring to keep UFO information under wraps. They are concerned that the public may not be able to handle the information. Governments are charged with controlling their respective populations, a simple fact that is often ignored.

When on the odd occasion governments do decide to release relevant information, and project openness, such as the Mexican government did a few weeks ago, or tentatively the Russian and French years ago, it largely gets ignored.

I think that this represents a common, and not unreasonable viewpoint. However, I have always been troubled by the fact that if this is a truly global issue, what would really prevent a country, especially from an impoverished area, from being a "whistleblower," if you will, and blow the lid on the whole thing - even without having reliable evidence? What would prevent a country from using the UFO phenomenon as a force to drive tourism dollars into the country, or at the very least focus world attention on the country in the hopes of some form of political or economic gain? I'm skeptical that the threat of force - political, military, economic, etc - from the US "empire" and other countries involved in an alleged worldwide cover-up would be enough to stop this from happening.

Any thoughts?

What would be the incentive for any government to end the cover-up? Anything to do with UFOs is still, in the minds of most people, associated with both hilarity and horror. Governments only stand to loose by divulging information. In particular, they would loose their most precious asset: Control. They would have to deal with a frightened and disorientated population that would bombard them with questions, many of which are unanswerable.

"Were are they from?"
"What do they want?"
"How long are they going to stay here?"
"Have they been here before?"
"Why didn't you tell us about them before?"
"Do they abduct/rape/eat people?"
"Why don't we shoot them down?"

And so on. A public relations nightmare. No politician is going to choose that route. Not to mention the next questions:

"How did they get here? How do they travel such vast distances? Can we build machines like that? You mean, we have got them already???"

 

[musictomyears]

musictomyears wrote...

As long as citizens think and act like sheep, governments will continue to lie to us.

And another thing about conspiracists...why do they all use exactly the same language as a "counter-argument", that everyone who doesn't agree with them--and that's most thinking people--are sheep??? What, is there a manual or something that all these independent-minded conspiracists go to for spewing precisely the same statements time after time, regardless of the conspiracy, evidence or even the very obvious truth?

Which comparison would you prefer? Sheeple? Sacrificial lambs? Republicans? Democrats?

 

[Paul Kimball]

Paul,

Wouldn't you agree that a mission to Mars for the sole purpose of finding life will do more for the UFO field of research than a push for disclosure?

After all, if life can exist on a nearby planet then it is likely commonplace in the universe. If life is commonplace then intelligent life may be rather common as well. If this is true then there may be many space faring civilizations out there.

We are discovering new planets outside out solar systems on a regular basis. I think the count is well over 200. Since planets seem to be common place this also means there are many possible places for life to exist.

By proving life is common place it is far easier for scientists to look at the UFO phenomenon with legitimacy.

I agree completely, which is why I think ufology has missed a major opportunity over the years by failing to talk more about us getting "out there" as opposed to them being "down here". Frankly, ufology is about as reactionary as it can get when it comes to their worldview - they are stuck in a 1950s mindset about what UFOs might be, and they seem to think that the only way to solve the question is for the government to tell us. They have made what should be a fascinating, gee-whiz kind of inquiry a deadly dull grind. Boo, hiss.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world has moved on, and many of us look to the stars. If there is alien life out there, someday we'll run into them - perhaps sooner than we think. Who knows? At that point we may still not know what the UFO phenomenon represented.

And lest anyone think this is easy to say, but not so easy to do, I put my money where my mouth was when I ran the 2006 New Frontiers Symposium. I invited Robert Zimmerman, one of the foremost historians of space exploration, to give the keynote lecture after Stan Friedman, myself and others had talked about UFOs and other paranormal subjects. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Paul

 

[CapnG]

When military and government officials come forward, such as on the recent Larry King show, and not only report on their encounters, but also mention that they were told by the CIA to never speak about them in public, it falls on deaf ears, and the "no-conspiracy Hahaha" crowd carries on regardless.

It's elective deafness. Preferential, even. In fact, I think you hit it by saying:

Sometimes I wonder if the governments shouldn't be applauded for sustaining the secrecy. Humans are such a volatile, irrational and generally dangerous lot. Why expose them to something they surely would make a right mess of?

I've said it before, I'll say it again: in my opinion, average, ordinary people simply could NOT handle UFOs and aliens as a reality. Not even the people on this board, including myself, although we might (perhaps) weather the news better than most. It's one thing to discuss these subjects in terms of mights and maybes, it's something else altogether to have it as a concrete reality. To have it be real, I mean REALLY go-outside-and-see-ufos-every-day real... society would most certainly implode.