Phillip Corso and Bill Birnes

[status4]

The space program we know about anyway. Im inclined to believe to a certain degree the theories of a secret space program.

Not even secret, have you seen the Air Force recruiting commercial that's been showing? It features a guy in an AF uniform talking about wanting to be in the space program his whole life. He talks about how NASA launches a shuttle maybe once a month if they are lucky, "I have 3 launches in the next 30 days" he says as he stands in front of a rather large rocket sitting atop a launching pad.

 

[fitzbew88]

Not even secret, have you seen the Air Force recruiting commercial that's been showing? It features a guy in an AF uniform talking about wanting to be in the space program his whole life. He talks about how NASA launches a shuttle maybe once a month if they are lucky, "I have 3 launches in the next 30 days" he says as he stands in front of a rather large rocket sitting atop a launching pad.

Heh heh, yeah, well I think Gareth is talking about a secret "manned" space program. The unmanned intelligence gathering and "Star Wars"-ish program is well known.

A few years ago, one of the aviation magazines ran a story sourced from off-the-record Pentagon sources that discussed a secret military shuttle ( i.e. reusable craft) that was launched from atop another large and secret aircraft. It had just been retired prior to the article.

Supposedly the military shuttle had stealth characteristics and was used for fast recon but also had an offensive capability. Thus the secrecy.

I'm skeptical that any kind've manned military space program ever got much more elaborate than that --- but remember even the reusable shuttle is still speculative!

At least a few of the NASA orbiter missions have been primary military in purpose, so if the U.S. military had/has a manned program it obviously doesn't meet all of its needs.

 

[Mothra]

The space program we know about anyway. Im inclined to believe to a certain degree the theories of a secret space program.

LOL, I was waiting for someone to bring that up.

 

[jratcliff63367]

Jeremy, there was a documentary on recently, I think it was the history channel, which reviewed all of Corso's claims. It did an excellent job of documenting that, yes, indeed, Corso really did have the military background he claimed. However, it also did an excellent job of reviewing the technologies that he claims came about due to his program, and there Corso's claims fall totally flat.

It covered fairly well the evolution of the various technologies which all clearly came about through the hard work of scientists and engineers over a very long period of time (no sudden 'wow' breakthrough moments.) And, yes, individual scientists did deny it.

You can also research the evolution of any of these technologies, starting with Wikipedia and then following sources from there. These technologies and their development are well documented and require no 'alien intervention' to explain their creation.

As far as why Corso would tell the stories, there is a much more simple explanation. We certainly know that elements of the intelligence community spread disinformation about the UFO subject. It's often hard to understand what their agenda is but, the fact of the matter is that many of our most powerful UFO myths came straight from the intelligence community.

Corso, of course, was involved in military intelligence. He is a natural conduit to spread this kind of disinformation. His story itself is ludicrous on the face of it. He just 'happens' to see alien bodies and just 'happens' years later be tasked with a project he wasn't even qualified to conduct.

He cannot provide a single, solitary, piece of witness testimony, and documentary or physical evidence to back up any aspect of his story. His claims are demonstrably false when you examine the fact that the technologies in question needed no special 'alien' intervention to come about. They came about, instead, by known human scientists and engineers as the result of decades of hard, slow, steady, work and research.

If you were the scientists responsible for creating any one of these technologies how offended would you be that this intelligence officer was making wild claims that you were not responsible for your own work? That you were so dumb you needed 'aliens' to give you a breakthrough.

Now, all that said, I personally suspect that a UFO probably did crash in Roswell. And, if it did, then the crash debris would have been analyzed by scientists and engineers. And, if we were ever to hear that true story, it would clearly be quite fascinating. What this implies then is that there may be *themes* in Corso's story which are actually true.

But, that's just how disinformation works. It works best when you mix some truth in with all of your bullshit.

Until we get some physical evidence, documentary evidence, and witness testimony (i.e. I was an engineer at this company and reverse engineered an alien device) and that testimony is corroborated, I think we should consider that the most likely hypothesis is that Corso was spreading disinformation like the good soldier that he was.

John

P.S. If I sound a little bit annoyed and ticked off, it is because I am myself an engineer and I can empathize with my colleagues at how irritating it would be to have to deal with the Corso bullshit after having devoted years of my life and intellect producing my *own* work.

 

[Gareth]

Im not saying I believe or disbelieve the story. But wouldnt scientists deny the stories anyway? I dont see them admitting to accepting the 'helping hand', even if they got one.

Of course the other things you brought up seem valid.

 

[mike]

heres an idea.......

the atomic blasts create radiation that signal "here we are", the aliens arrive and seed the technology we need for interface/contact then promptly sail "uptime" say 100 years from now, and make contact

im starting to wonder if time is not as easily traversed as great distance if you have the right machine.

imagine that.... imagine being able to travel from one point in space to another, and also from one time to another.

if this IS possible think of what that means to our concious viewpoint on the universe, being able to set sail on two axis at the same time, a craft that could take you anywhere anywhen.

now thats freedom

dinner for two at the resturant at the end of the universe...............

 

[Kieran]

Dear god... listening to Birnes is exhausting, I don't know how Birnes himself keeps it up! He makes the term "motormouth" seem weak and non-descript! Slow down man, this isn't Larry King!

In regards to the whole Roswell/timeship theory. David brings up what appears to be a valid argument with the whole "apple product in the 1900s" comparison but in reality it's invalid. One has to assume that if the idea underlying the timeship theory is that they intended to send the ship back to that time, then clearly the key component is that time (ie 1947). An advanced intelligence (future us, presumably) would be smart enough to recognize when technological development was on the cusp of something and therefore when to give it a nudge.

I also think David's assumptions are totally wrong about technology and time. All you have to do is look at where we are now. 200 years ago we were burning whale oil to light lamps. 100 years ago we were only just getting to the combustion engine. 50 years ago computers took up a warehouse and needed thousands of hand punched cards to do basic math. 15 years ago cell phones were the size of a patio brick and were just phones. 5 years ago there was no such thing Youtube.

Notice the trend? We went from not having penecillin to recognizing the existence of DNA to mapping the entire human genome in ONE century. Imagine where we'll be one century from now. I'm thinking completely artificial cloned lifeforms is not outside the box...



If you do, for the love of god nail him on that irradiated food bullshit. Apparently his dad ate ONE steak and a plate of strawberries that had been irradiated for preservation and concluded it was safe for daily consumption. WHAT!? That's like saying "If I smoke ONE cigarette, I'm not likely to get lung cancer, therefore cigarettes are safe." Feet to the fire Gene, make it happen!

The "apple product" theory makes sense the more you go back in time. Of course you always have to remember even do products are made in the "future " they are still created by human hands, so senting products back in time doesnt neccesarily mean humans will not be able to figure out how they work. The main problem would be? Do the raw materials exist, simply, how could you duplicate should a product if the materials dont exist? do they exist in the timeline? say "1900s" or "1700s" in our century.

History gives us no evidence of time travel from the future? yet this could be a flawed argument since time travellers would not reveal themselves more openly so to avoid changeing the future. Alternatively time travel may be possible, but only in our future, the past has already been determined.

"Time travel" is hard to get your head around!! Since so many paradoxes are posed by "time travel!! It really depends on the intelligence behinds "time travel". For me at least if "ufos"and there occupants are time travellers they seem to be useing that power wisely?

Natural occuring versions may exist in the universe already who knows? eg alternative universes or black holes may remove the paradoxe issue? Another issue if the ufo" could somehow tweak the speed of travel eg we know of "speed of light" could this enable ufos to travel between galaxies. It be my guess this could would help "ufoS"do a journey of millions of light years in no time at all?

ok in conclusion this is why people find "time travel" hard thing to swallow.We have recorded history,and we know what events happened in the past, and even in the recent past we have our own memories of past experiences. So analyseing all that....

If time travel was happening we would not have recorded history since things are constantly changeing.Yes but if time travellers are aware of the dangers and no what dire consequences would occur by changeing history, you would avoid at all costs.

Maybe you can change people lives not meaning to of course? but you cant change the structure of society?that is why "ufos" observe the secrecy?
Ok recorded history of the disc in our skies!!! think about this for a few minutes!!!! cultures from around the world dateing back thousands of years have observed this flying discs in our skies!!! think about it for a minute!! How come the disc has never changed even do thousands of years have passed. i wouldnt say the flying disc is a time travelling device because i have no prove of that. Anyway just a theory.

 

[valiens]

If you were the scientists responsible for creating any one of these technologies how offended would you be that this intelligence officer was making wild claims that you were not responsible for your own work? That you were so dumb you needed 'aliens' to give you a breakthrough.

That's just it: I'd be really offended and probably looking into whether there was a lawsuit there or not. I'd have been all over the TV the week that book exploded onto the scene telling the world it was bullshit and why. I never saw that happen. But if there's a History Channel special where they do this I'll seek it out.

 

[jratcliff63367]

>>But wouldnt scientists deny the stories anyway?

You can't prove a negative. Without corroborating evidence Coro's story remains just that, a story. If you are going to come out with a tale that would have involved hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals, then it is incumbent on you to get others to come forward and confirm your story as well. Otherwise, that is all that is is, a story and nothing more.

Name a single shred of evidence that Corso ever provided in the form of documentation, corroborating witness testimony, photographs, films, or physical data, that confirms one single thing he claims about his alleged program. The only confirming evidence is Coro's military past which really only qualifies him to be a disinformation agent and nothing more.

John

 

[jratcliff63367]

>>But if there's a History Channel special where they do this I'll seek it out.

The scientists they spoke to on the documentary seemed fairly annoyed.

 

[Rramjet]

We have no evidence for Corso. It is his word, and nobody else's. Take it or leave it!!!you could say.Another question does the history back up his claims of Corso.
It simple take one of Corso theories or facts according to him, and analyse the history of the product if that is all possible???
The timeline of the product, the people involved any interviews, does any research remain somewhere. Corsos claim are big!! Was ufo technology used in the makeing of items such a

This would seem the logical starting point for confirmation of Corso's claims. But of course the Corso believers and the conspiracy theorists would contend that the history of the products in question would look legitimate despite their supposed UFO origins and further, I suspect if one were to delve deeper into it (to try and access the research notes etc) one would immediately run into "commercial in confidence" problems - thus ultimately nothing would be resolved.

On time travel, there was a very interesting Scientific American podcast (Science Talk: The Podcast of Scientific American - 26 June) where the in the latter part Astrophysicist J. Richard Gott talked about the possibilities of time travel. Of course Einstien's Special Theory allows for time travel and indeed travel into the future is a fundamental reality. The conclusion however was that time travel into the past was indeed theoretically possible, HOWEVER, the theory was such that you could not travel back before the "time machine" was invented - thus we are not currently inundated with time travellers...

 

[mike]

i think our history would change "seamlessly" if a time traveller were to change the past, you wouldnt know anything had changed. and what if the time machine has been invented 100 million years ago by another species elsewhere, if one of those devices fell into our hands we would be able to go "downtime" here no problems

 

[Schuyler]

Corso as dis-informatio purveyor makes a lot of sense to me in context. To an unknowing civilian, Lt. Colonel sounds like he is very high up in the command structure, but Lt. Col. is really not that high. Corso was in 21 years and still a Lt. Col.? Anyone with any moxie would have retired at 20 as a full colonel. Something held his career back pretty significantly. It COULD have been the defense drawdown after WWII, and it could have been his lack of education--he had less than 2 years of industrial arts at a California teacher's college. Or it could have been abject discrimination because of his stature and looks. Whatever the reason, he did not advance through the ranks as fast as normal. From the general staff perspective, he was a low-level functionary. This is a perfect person to assign a dis-info campaign to. As someone else earlier said, he would have followed orders and carried through.

 

[fitzbew88]

Corso as dis-informatio purveyor makes a lot of sense to me in context.

To convince us that the Roswell event was ET, and some of our technology was ET-inspired. In the press room down the hall, however, another officer is telling us that Roswell was Mogul.

You might be right (I don't know), but it sure doesn't make sense to me.

To an unknowing civilian, Lt. Colonel sounds like he is very high up in the command structure, but Lt. Col. is really not that high.

Well, in the modern U.S. Army officers with the rank of Lt. Col. and higher constitute the top 3% of U.S. Army personnel. Which seems pretty high to me.

Corso was in 21 years and still a Lt. Col.? Anyone with any moxie would have retired at 20 as a full colonel.

About 40% of retirees retired with the rank of Lt. Col. ( or equivalent in the other services). It is by far the most common retiree rank. This is as of Sep 2007.

Something held his career back pretty significantly.

I don't see any sign of it.

Whatever the reason, he did not advance through the ranks as fast as normal.

No sign of it.

From the general staff perspective, he was a low-level functionary.

No, Lt. Col.'s are not low-level functionaries, even to Generals. This is what Lieutenants and Captains are for.

This is a perfect person to assign a dis-info campaign to.

Maybe. But I still don't understand the motive. Make the public believe in Roswell more? Less? Either way, I don't see the sense of it.

As someone else earlier said, he would have followed orders and carried through.

I agree with you, I'm guessing he did know a thing or two about following orders.

 

[Schuyler]

Well, in the modern U.S. Army officers with the rank of Lt. Col. and higher constitute the top 3% of U.S. Army personnel. Which seems pretty high to me.

That's kind of my point. To civilians it SEEMS high. To the General Staff, it is not. You are also looking at total figures, which does not tell the whole story. People retiring as Lt. Cols includes all LDO officers, who are 'limited duty' and CANNOT go above that rank by definition, plus all officers who had significant prior enlisted time and earned a commission mid-career and simply did not have time to get promoted. Corso was not in any of those categories. He started as a Second Lieutenant when he joined and moved up the ranks pretty normal through Major, then slowed down significantly. He made Lt. Col in 1953 and got out in 1963. 10 Years as a Lt. Colonel? Your time in grade before you can be considered for promotion to Colonel is three years. I realize it's difficult to compare the post war army with today's army, which must have many different rules in effect than there were in those days, but my perception is that his career slowed down. In other words, he wasn't exactly on the fast track. Given how long he was a Lt. Col., my guess is he had to have been passed over at least once. Get passed over twice and you're out--especially if you are a 'reserve' officer, which he was. That could have happened, too, though there is not a shred of evidence of that--it's just time-frame possible. Corso also only held one 'command' postion for a few months. He was a 'staff officer' for most of his career, in other words, in support roles. Officers with significant command experience tend to be more promotable.

A discussion of his service can be found here: http://www.cufon.org/cufon/corso_da66.htm. I'm just trying to connect some dots here. I may be totally off-base, of course.

 

[Tommy Allison]

Whoops... Misread the post. Sorry!

 

[Gareth]

>>But wouldnt scientists deny the stories anyway?

You can't prove a negative. Without corroborating evidence Coro's story remains just that, a story. If you are going to come out with a tale that would have involved hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals, then it is incumbent on you to get others to come forward and confirm your story as well. Otherwise, that is all that is is, a story and nothing more.

Name a single shred of evidence that Corso ever provided in the form of documentation, corroborating witness testimony, photographs, films, or physical data, that confirms one single thing he claims about his alleged program. The only confirming evidence is Coro's military past which really only qualifies him to be a disinformation agent and nothing more.

John

Absolutely I agree with you. All I am saying is that I dont think you can use the denial of a couple scientists as strong proof that the story is bunk.

Jeremy raised a good point. Why arent they noisy as hell defending themselves and their work? I guess one answer to that is that the whole Corso story really isnt as widespread and pervasive as we think, and that not many people not interested in the UFO subject have even heard of the book or the allegations.

 

[jratcliff63367]

>>Why arent they noisy as hell defending themselves and their work?

I'm sure they would if it was brought to their attention. Corso's story is hardly a mainstream affair nor is it taken seriously by anyone in the scientific community. Simply go to Wikipedia and read up about the development of the laser, or the transistor, or other technologies which Corso claims to have influenced.

In those Wikipedia entries you will find a long, long, history of development that is well documented including the participation of all of the parties responsible for the evolution of these technologies.

In no case is there any sense of a 'mystery' about how the invention came about. It was always based on the solid ground work of scientists and engineers who came before.

If what Corso claims is true, then we should have had discoveries which came out of the blue with no way of explaining this incredible breakthrough.

In none of these examples he gives is this the case.

John

 

[mstuartm]

One thing I did learn from this discussion though was that Lear is with the CIA and has a Top Secret(I think?) clearance. That sheds a new light on pretty much everything he says. Although I still believe there is an atmosphere on the moon and you can breathe up there for a little while.

Lear is a guilty pleasure for me. The crap he spouts is invariably entertaining, unless I consider the fact that quite a few people take him seriously. Then I wonder why the human race didn't dumb itself out of existence decades ago.

BTW Lear, as I recall, did fly for Air America in the early '70s -- nobody really disputes that fact. And apparently, he held a clearance years ago while working for the Test Site, I believe as a pilot running radiation-monitoring missions during underground nuke tests. But Lear has been such a complete loon for so many years now that I doubt even the U.S. intel apparat would be tempted to use him for disinformation purposes. I mean, if Doty had come up with some of the whoppers Lear keeps repeating today, even Paul Bennewitz would have wet his pants laughing at the absurdity of it all.

Simply go to Wikipedia and read up about the development of the laser, or the transistor, or other technologies which Corso claims to have influenced.

In those Wikipedia entries you will find a long, long, history of development that is well documented including the participation of all of the parties responsible for the evolution of these technologies.

In no case is there any sense of a 'mystery' about how the invention came about. It was always based on the solid ground work of scientists and engineers who came before.

I agree completely with this statement. Even if one sets this issue aside, however, one still must address the fact that this so-called "advanced technology" isn't nearly advanced *enough* to make Corso's story credible. Simply look at the rate of accelerating technological change over the past half-century and then extrapolate it....not by decades or centuries, but by, let's say, 10,000 years. When even we are on the verge of technologies like quantum computing and nanotech, the fact that a crashed alien spacecraft would use primitive bits of junk like semiconductors or fiber optics is just plain silly.

Having seen Corso speak, I don't doubt that he was an honorable man and a patriotic American. That's why he was able to participate so convincingly in what looks to me like yet another disinformation campaign....even when doing so meant taking the deception with him to his grave.

 

[Kieran]

I found this video very interesting i think it worth a watch!!
1 Bob took a lie dector test and passed, not saying it couldnt be beaten, but yet he seemed to pass it
2Some of the places where bob said he worked denied ever knowing him!! yet records have been found. That makes no sense think about it!! if you dont no somebody you should have no record of them it very simple!!
3 Stanton friedman doesnt dismiss Lazar offhand in this video, even do it is old video it leaves it open. The problem i find with stan is he actaully expects to find the records and if he doesnt he dismiss's the story as not being real. My problems i have with that logic "The ufo phenomen is probably the greatest secret not recorded in our history so does Stan actually expect to find records on individuals who worked in classfied
programs especially programs that research "ufos" not likely and you be foolish to think you would?

Conclusion I AM OPEN MINDED ON LAZAR BUT STILL BE CRITICAL SINCE HE HAS NO DOCUMENTATION TO BACK UP HIS CLAIMS, BUT HOW WOULD HE!!!!