Philosophy, Science, & The Unexplained - Main Thread

[trainedobserver]

C,
I am saying that that consciousness is the brain experiencing its own operation. I'll think about how to express that differently. I've read about and practiced different forms of meditation on and off over the years. It is generally understood and experienced that thought cannot be stopped. Meditation is an exercise in focus and usually incorporates disassociation to observe the constant stream of thoughts as though separated from them. Even in the most disciplined mind, thoughts spring up from a bottomless well without prompting.

This isn't about ignoring evidence as much as it is qualifying it. Determining what qualifies as valid evidence is often not that easy.

 

[smcder]

As much as we want to believe this phenomenon represents non-locality of consciousness nobody has done that.

As much as we want to believe this phenomenon represents non-locality of consciousness nobody has done that.

Does the "we" include you personally wanting to believe non-locality of consciousness or is it a generic expression . . . ?

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

OK, I can see where you're trying to go now. On the issue of alien abduction, I would say that in the case of those with a conscious firsthand experience, the evidence would seem to be self evident and therefore properly basic. However I use the word "seem", because people can be misled by misinformation, illusion, and deception. The abduction experience is so overwhelming that jumping to conclusions and blind acceptance is to be expected. I've run across this time and time again in abduction stories. For example we often hear the trite warnings about our mistreatment of the environment as if to impart the idea that we should have more respect for nature, and the experiencer seems to take this deeply to heart without question.

Yet a critical look at this repeating theme is that although nature is beautiful, it's also deadly. Nature would kill us without reservation if it weren't for the fact that we've learned to manipulate our environment and defend ourselves against predators. Stick a few of these aliens out on the African savannah for a week without their fancy spacecraft and technology and see how long they last before getting eaten by the lions. Even worse than their namby-pamby out of touch with reality scolding of their helpless victims is their hypocrisy. If they are so smart and wonderful then how about a little help? But no, never, not once have we been given any information that is beyond the scope of our present day technology that would help reduce our environmental impact on the planet. Nothing but platitudes !

These factors lead me to suspect that alien abduction stories are largely fabrications or hoaxes, either by the so-called experiencer or those who have perpetrated a convincing hoax on the experiencer. This doesn't rule out the possibility of genuine alien abduction, but there's still no definitive evidence that it's actually taking place.

What about children who tell their stories, draw pictures, etc. These would have to be the least tainted evidence of an abduction account?

 

[Jeff Davis]

They can know it the same way we can have dreams that correspond to things in reality. Smells and sounds for example are still registered in the brain during sleep. Combine that with all the experience and foreknowledge of the local environment and presto! You have a dream of flying that seems like it's real because it's associated with actual things that are happening at the time.

Just take a moment to think of what happens in these situations. There's often a blow by blow vocal description from multiple people of what's taking place at the scene that may also include radio communications and sounds from machinery and equipment. The mind can take all that stuff in subconsciously and put it together with banked images to create a completely fabricated but seemingly real scene.

It explains it just fine when you consider the unverfiability of the experience and the margins for error. Again, we need the case where someone makes this claim and correctly relays the message on the random display. Surely you can see that this would be far better evidence than what we've got now?

And yes I've looked at Van Lommel's stuff and it has all the same problems, just better organized.

There is no unreliability of the reporting of the experience. Those that were in the room during the out of body state have verified as much many times. You have not answered my question. How can we account for the non-localized observation of events that we are not awake to observe? Hallucinations do not provide lucid accuracy.

 

[Randall]

Can this be demonstrated? I can provide a GREAT DEAL of reasearch that I am certain provides just as compelling an amount of circumstantial evidence for non-local consciousness, as does the image based reporting that forwards the notion that UFOs are alien craft does. What is the difference here?

Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experience by Jeffrey Long, MD with Paul Perry

What about children who tell their stories, draw pictures, etc. These would have to be the least tainted evidence of an abduction account?

Children are very imaginative and the UFO phenomenon is deeply engrained into our culture. Is it possible that children have been abducted by aliens? Sure. It might have even happened to me. But are children's drawings good evidence? I'm not so sure. I think children are essentially innocent ( though not always ), and tend to believe they are telling the truth. But does that truth always conform to reality? I think most parents know the answer to that question. Even so, I do have a soft spot for children. They are smarter than we give them credit for, and I think it's a mistake to simply brush all their experiences off, especially if they believe it's not something "pretend".

 

[Randall]

There is no unreliability of the reporting of the experience. Those that were in the room during the out of body state have verified as much many times. You have not answered my question. How can we account for the non-localized observation of events that we are not awake to observe? Hallucinations do not provide lucid accuracy.

Not sure what more I can say that I haven't already said. Our subconscious takes in information like smells and sounds into our subconscious where it is capable of making a scene based on that real time information combined with knowledge in memory. Do you not believe that people have dreams that seem real about being in real places. I had a dream about being in the kitchen next to the stove where a pot of soup is cooking, only to wake up with the smell of cooking soup in the house. Did I automatically think I astral projected down to the kitchen? Of course not. Surely you accept that such dreams happen to more people than just me? I've heard many similar stories and have no reason to doubt them. So why couldn't a similar thing be happening in NDEs? The truth is that there's no reason it can't happen in virtually all the cases out there. So don't say I haven't answered your question.

 

[Jeff Davis]

They can know it the same way we can have dreams that correspond to things in reality. Smells and sounds for example are still registered in the brain during sleep. Combine that with all the experience and foreknowledge of the local environment and presto! You have a dream of flying that seems like it's real because it's associated with actual things that are happening at the time.

Just take a moment to think of what happens in these situations. There's often a blow by blow vocal description from multiple people of what's taking place at the scene that may also include radio communications and sounds from machinery and equipment. The mind can take all that stuff in subconsciously and put it together with banked images to create a completely fabricated but seemingly real scene.

It explains it just fine when you consider the unverfiability of the experience and the margins for error. Again, we need the case where someone makes this claim and correctly relays the message on the random display. Surely you can see that this would be far better evidence than what we've got now?

And yes I've looked at Van Lommel's stuff and it has all the same problems, just better organized.

OK. In the first paragraph you are stating that accident victims that are knocked out, or those on an operating table that are under, are hearing things and then assembling fabrications based on those things that they heard. So how is this attributable to consciousness as a waking state? You ain't making sense here. It's like you are reaching just to keep from accepting the evidence. That's not critical thinking. That's just fabricating evidence to veer away from the real thing. IMO.

You see, the whole notion of consciousness being attributable solely to the waking state of the brain is not logical. If that were the case, we would have no accessible subconscious mind within a waking state. We also would never dream. The truth is, there is ONLY consciousness and cognition. Cognition is specific and local. Consciousness is an informational medium that we all utilize environmentally. Consciousness is our cognition's link to perceptive experience. No need to make stuff up like assembling reality to resemble reality and all that nonsense. It's just the way it is and most serious consciousness exploration efforts consider the matter an absolute given.

Here is another outstanding read. There are at least two articles in this new publication that are spot on with respect to this thread. Enjoy! http://www.scientificexploration.org/edgescience/edgescience_16.pdf

 

[smcder]

Children are very imaginative and the UFO phenomenon is deeply engrained into our culture. Is it possible that children have been abducted by aliens? Sure. It might have even happened to me. But are children's drawings good evidence? I'm not so sure. I think children are essentially innocent ( though not always ), and tend to believe they are telling the truth. But does that truth always conform to reality? I think most parents know the answer to that question. Even so, I do have a soft spot for children. They are smarter than we give them credit for, and I think it's a mistake to simply brush all their experiences off, especially if they believe it's not something "pretend".

As much as we want to believe this phenomenon represents non-locality of consciousness nobody has done that.

Does the "we" include you personally wanting to believe non-locality of consciousness or is it a generic expression . . . ?

I quoted UFOlogy on this - but it's for anyone - and more about the survival of death and more . . . if "yes" . . . under what conditions would you want your consciousness to "survive" your physical death . . . and of course if no, why not too!

I personally would have real reservations.

 

[Jeff Davis]

More great and up to date info on the notions that support life after death/non-localized consciousness.

Quantum physics proves that there IS an afterlife, claims scientist | Mail Online

 

[Randall]

OK. In the first paragraph you are stating that accident victims that are knocked out, or those on an operating table that are under, are hearing things and then assembling fabrications based on those things that they heard. So how is this attributable to consciousness as a waking state?

I never said it was, "attributable to consciousness as a waking state". I'm saying that the subconscious assembles information into dream states based on a combination of memory and subconsciously perceived signals that are incoming while unconscious, and that the resulting scene may seem very real and even correspond closely to what was happening at the time, but it was nothing more than a lucid type of dream, not actual non-locality of consciousness.

Here is another outstanding read. There are at least two articles in this new publication that are spot on with respect to this thread. Enjoy! http://www.scientificexploration.org/edgescience/edgescience_16.pdf

Interesting PDF. Unfortunately it starts out dangerously close to pseudoscience and then falls off the edge into mystical mumbo jumbo like:

"OBEs are about exploring physical and extraphysical environments, meeting other (more or less evolved)
extraphysical (disincarnated) consciousnesses, providing assistance to intraphysical (incarnated) and
extraphysical (disincarnated) beings, with the possibility of working with teams of more advanced and
organized consciousnesses, which are referred to as extraphysical helpers."​

Yoga is generally pretty good though. I think the overall health benefit of moderate Yoga is well established.

 

[Randall]

I quoted UFOlogy on this - but it's for anyone - and more about the survival of death and more . . . if "yes" . . . under what conditions would you want your consciousness to "survive" your physical death . . . and of course if no, why not too!

I personally would have real reservations.

Good question. I had people tell me that when it's over they want it to be over. I've had people tell me they wouldn't want to live forever. I'm not among those people. Assuming it is possible to make a complete transition of awareness and memory from a physical substrate to a so-called "spiritual" substrate ( or whatever ), count me in for the ride. I want to experience living as long as it's possible, and I submit that a fully intact mind and consciousness would be sufficient to facilitate that experience. However at the same time, I also don't think that you could make the claim that you are still the same person as you were before.

 

[trainedobserver]

S,
I have to wonder what would survive physical death? A bundle of information about my now past life? What would be organizing and maintaining this no-thing without the physical structure of the body? What would such an existence be like? It's incomprehensible. I am the totality of my organism, bits of it existing without the rest doesn't seem possible or right.

The dream of the ages is that you survive physical death to awaken in a new and perfected human body in a natural paradise. I wonder how long that would remain interesting before we cried out for drama and strife to break the monotony? How long before rebellion? The other horror of reincarnation is just depressing. What? Again? No, I'm ready to jump off the wheel. I just want to get some rest.

I've come to believe pretty strongly that "life after death" is a vain pursuit and one that can distract from the beauty and immediacy of life itself.

 

[Randall]

More great and up to date info on the notions that support life after death/non-localized consciousness.
Quantum physics proves that there IS an afterlife, claims scientist | Mail Online

The most accurate word you use to describe the article is the word "notion", particularly parts in bold below ( from Encarta ).

no·tion [n?sh’n] noun (plural no·tions)

1. idea: an idea, opinion, or concept
2. impression: a vague understanding or impression
3. desire: a sudden desire or whim​

I hardly call these notions "proof", but still a good read for those uninitiated to this topic..

 

[Jeff Davis]

I never said it was, "attributable to consciousness as a waking state". I'm saying that the subconscious assembles information into dream states based on a combination of memory and subconsciously perceived signals that are incoming while unconscious, and that the resulting scene may seem very real and even correspond closely to what was happening at the time, but it was nothing more than a lucid type of dream, not actual non-locality of consciousness.


Interesting PDF. Unfortunately it starts out dangerously close to pseudoscience and then falls off the edge into mystical mumbo jumbo like:

"OBEs are about exploring physical and extraphysical environments, meeting other (more or less evolved)
extraphysical (disincarnated) consciousnesses, providing assistance to intraphysical (incarnated) and
extraphysical (disincarnated) beings, with the possibility of working with teams of more advanced and
organized consciousnesses, which are referred to as extraphysical helpers."​

Yoga is generally pretty good though. I think the overall health benefit of moderate Yoga is well established.

Ufology,
Can you give us that succinct definition that you have attributed to consciousness here numerous times please? To understand the roll of consciousness, the absolute most basic and underlying theme is sentience. When we observe or imagine ourselves, we experience rudimentary sentience. Awareness of the self. Sentience and consciousness are in no way separable. How can you proclaim that such a sentient experience as that which is extended consciousness observing the self is not representative of sentient consciousness itself? The subconscious mind does not imagine anything. It's strictly informational in nature. It cannot lie knowingly. It can't make stuff up.

I just can't buy into your assumptions here. They don't align themselves with any consensus of consciousness studies that I am aware of.

 

[Jeff Davis]

The most accurate word you use to describe the article is the word "notion", particularly parts in bold below ( from Encarta ).

no·tion [n?sh’n] noun (plural no·tions)

1. idea: an idea, opinion, or concept
2. impression: a vague understanding or impression
3. desire: a sudden desire or whim​

I hardly call these notions "proof", but still a good read for those uninitiated to this topic..

Are you making an appeal to my authority? LOL! Please, just read.

 

[Constance]

Just to be clear, I don't rely so much on objective material evidence as logical analysis of the available evidence, preferably backed by some form of verification that makes it reasonable to believe. Put this together with critical thinking, and we move closer to the truth.

I think that in this phrase -- "available evidence, preferably backed by some form of verification that makes it reasonable to believe" -- you are talking about "objective material evidence." But you qualify it further: "preferably backed by some form of verification that makes it reasonable to believe." Could you give an example of what you mean by the latter in judging 'available evidence'?

You refer to 'logical analysis' and the question of 'reasonableness' ["reasonable to believe"]. But both western logic and what we find 'reasonable to believe' are built on perceptions and interpretations of reality that might be incomplete. Thus what you refer to as 'critical thinking' might also rest on presuppositions about what is real rather than actual knowledge of what is real. {I haven't looked up your linked definition of critical thinking yet so can't be more specific at the moment.}

One further note: an enormous amount of critical thinking has been brought to the inadequacy of scientific and philosophical materialism in our time.

 

[Randall]

Not sure what you mean. But the comment isn't that it's your notion. Rather it's the notions ( ideas ) you referred to in the article. I'll let you know when you're getting equally "notionary". So far, in your posts I see a lot of fringe exploration but not a lot of hard and absolute claims, like ( for example ) the article's title which claims to have "proven" the theory of life after death ( but doesn't ). Also, to be clear: I'm not saying I have the ultimate answers. Maybe non-locality of consciousness is something that actually happens. I've even proposed a way that it could be scientifically possible. So if that can happen then why not the so called life after death theory? That's why I leave the door open for experiments like the AWARE Project. It's one thing to figure out a way that it can happen and another to demonstrate with reasonable certainty that it is happening.

 

[Constance]

C,
I am saying that that consciousness is the brain experiencing its own operation. I'll think about how to express that differently. I've read about and practiced different forms of meditation on and off over the years. It is generally understood and experienced that thought cannot be stopped. Meditation is an exercise in focus and usually incorporates disassociation to observe the constant stream of thoughts as though separated from them. Even in the most disciplined mind, thoughts spring up from a bottomless well without prompting.

This isn't about ignoring evidence as much as it is qualifying it. Determining what qualifies as valid evidence is often not that easy.

 

[Randall]

I think that in this phrase -- "available evidence, preferably backed by some form of verification that makes it reasonable to believe" -- you are talking about "objective material evidence." But you qualify it further: "preferably backed by some form of verification that makes it reasonable to believe." Could you give an example of what you mean by the latter in judging 'available evidence'?

You refer to 'logical analysis' and the question of 'reasonableness' ["reasonable to believe"]. But both western logic and what we find 'reasonable to believe' are built on perceptions and interpretations of reality that might be incomplete. Thus what you refer to as 'critical thinking' might also rest on presuppositions about what is real rather than actual knowledge of what is real. {I haven't looked up your linked definition of critical thinking yet so can't be more specific at the moment.}

One further note: an enormous amount of critical thinking has been brought to the inadequacy of scientific and philosophical materialism in our time.

Critical thinking

Hi Constance. Read any good poetry lately . Here is the link for my critical thinking resources:

• http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/learn-the-elements-and-standards/861

I'm not a perfect critical thinker. I tend to stray off into editorializing with random splashes of bad "self-styled 70s humor" and a dash of cynicism. But I do try to at least keep the spirit intact .

 

[Constance]

What about children who tell their stories, draw pictures, etc. These would have to be the least tainted evidence of an abduction account?

Indeed. The Zimbabwe sighting and close encounter, while involving no abduction so far as we know, is powerful evidence of both the physical nature of a 'ufo' and of occupants able to communicate telepathically with humans precisely because young children provided most of the testimony. Children's NDEs are likewise very important in supporting the scores and scores of adult NDE accounts. One of the major NDE researchers has published a very good book concerning childrens' NDEs.