Philosophy, Science, & The Unexplained - Main Thread

[Randall]

I don't think drugs per se were being suggested.

Actually, yes they were. To quote where this began: "Some Paracast members would greatly benefit from a properly conducted Ayahuasca or Salvia Divinorum session. I believe natural psychedelics such as these can aid us in our 'spiritual' evolution and will make even the most hardened of materialists think twice about all this locality of consciousness mumbo jumbo."

That's not where the 'research' in this area is to be found. It is to be found in a rigorous self training - that is where the knowledge lies, not in a laboratory, where free-will has been 'given over'. There lies the fascist state - there lies the loss of autonomy. There lies a future we do not want to go.

If this "rigorous self-training" were so "rigorous" it would have some respect for the scientific method. It sounds more like your version should be called "rigorous self-serving training", and your political slant on scientific research suggests you don't understand how science is supposed to work.

 

[Nathaniel]

Yes, initially I did suggest the use of certain natural drugs (and I use the word 'drugs' loosely) as a means of exploring your own consciousness.

However, sensing your resistance to this idea I then suggested to you that there are many other ways to expand and explore your own consciousness, such as deep meditation.

I do stand by my statement that, used in the correct manner, certain plants, fungi and roots can greatly aid the conscious evolution of the human race and should not be so easily dismissed and thrown into the same category as other, less beneficial 'drugs' such as alcohol, tobacco and most synthetics.

 

[smcder]

Yes, initially I did suggest the use of certain natural drugs (and I use the word 'drugs' loosely) as a means of exploring your own consciousness.

However, sensing your resistance to this idea I then suggested to you that there are many other ways to expand and explore your own consciousness, such as deep meditation.

I do stand by my statement that, used in the correct manner, certain plants, fungi and roots can greatly aid the conscious evolution of the human race and should not be so easily dismissed and thrown into the same category as other, less beneficial 'drugs' such as alcohol, tobacco and most synthetics.

"Entheogens" - right? Terrance McKenna championed some ideas about the role of psilocybin in the evolution of human consciousness (based also on others' work), Rick Strassman (sp?) did experiments with DMT at the University of New Mexico and has a book about the results - and psilocybin has also been used recently in some end-of-life (last stage cancer) treatment studies at a university recently, there is a trend toward looking at entheogens in research . . . I will try and find links/citations to this work and post. Also, MDMA has been used in serious psychotherapeutic work (the drug may have originated for this purpose, I'm not sure) and may also be currently studied for this purpose and Ibogaine (another plant based/indigenous "sacred medicine") has had some interesting results in addiction research - I believe this is discussed (amid many other topics) by Gabor Maté MD here: Audio interview with Gabor Maté, MD on Addiction | Shrink Rap Radio Psychology Interviews: Exploring brain, body, mind, spirit, intuition, leadership, research, psychotherapy and more!

 

[Randall]

Yes, initially I did suggest the use of certain natural drugs (and I use the word 'drugs' loosely) as a means of exploring your own consciousness.

Ayahuasca, Salvia Divinorum and natural psychedelics sounds pretty specific rather than "loose" to me.

However, sensing your resistance to this idea I then suggested to you that there are many other ways to explore and expand your own consciousness, such as deep meditation.

From personal experience, I think meditation as a non-religious practise can be beneficial. I wouldn't be surprised to find some studies that support it either.

I do stand by my statement that, used in the correct manner, certain plants, fungi and roots can greatly aid the conscious evolution of the human race and should not be so easily dismissed and thrown in to the same category as other, less beneficial 'drugs' such as alcohol, tobacco and most synthetics.

Your statement above is much more loose than the original claim about non-locality of consciousness. Personally, I think that if non-locality of consciousness could be proven through the careful use of certain drugs under safe, controlled, and voluntary conditions, that it would be worth exploring. In fact, you could sign me up. Personally, I also believe that people should have more legal freedom to explore their states of consciousness through the use of safe, quality controlled, regulated recreational drugs. It's our body. We should have significant ( not absolute ) freedom to decide for ourselves what goes into it. But those issues are separate from claims that the non-controlled recreational use of psychedelic drugs is sufficient for us to believe non-locality of consciousness is actually taking place during these experiences. Is that fair?

 

[smcder]

Yes, initially I did suggest the use of certain natural drugs (and I use the word 'drugs' loosely) as a means of exploring your own consciousness.

However, sensing your resistance to this idea I then suggested to you that there are many other ways to expand and explore your own consciousness, such as deep meditation.

I do stand by my statement that, used in the correct manner, certain plants, fungi and roots can greatly aid the conscious evolution of the human race and should not be so easily dismissed and thrown into the same category as other, less beneficial 'drugs' such as alcohol, tobacco and most synthetics.

Gabor Mate' MD Ayahuasca and Addiction Treatment

Dr. Gabor Maté has worked for several years in Vancouver's downtown east side with people suffering from severe drug addictions. Based on his own experiences with ayahuasca, Dr. Maté is convinced that the Amazonian shamanic medicine, if taken in the proper context, can help people cure their addictions. Visit

http://vineofthesoul.com

video clip of Mate' speaking on the subject:

HARBOR - UCLA PSILOCYBIN & CANCER
Harbor - UCLA Psilocybin and Cancer | Heffter Research Institute

Rick Strassman, MD DMT studies
Rick Strassman MD | DMT: The Spirit Molecule

And the best source for McKenna's fascinating talks that I know of on the web is here:

Notes from the Psychedelic Salon » Quotes, comments, and audio files from Lorenzo's podcasts

Also, for the non-"drug" side of things, there is Holotropic Breathwork, developed by Stanislav Grof

Holotropic Breathwork[1] (from Greek ὅλος holos "whole" and τρέπειν trepein "to turn or direct towards a thing"; meaning "moving toward wholeness") is a practice that uses breathing and other elements to allow access to non-ordinary states for the purpose of self-exploration. It was developed by Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D. and Christina Grof, Ph.D.[2] Holotropic breathing has some similarities torebirthing-breathwork, but was developed independently.[citation needed] Holotropic Breathwork is intended as an approach to self-exploration and healing that integrates insights from modern consciousness research, anthropology, various depth psychologies, transpersonal psychology, Eastern spiritual practices, and mystical traditions of the world.[citation needed]
Holotropic Breathwork - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tyger]

That would be an interesting thing to do - make a "challenge" for folks to meditate or try some other specific consciousness exploration for a period of time and report in along the way to compare experiences?

Well that would be a thread now, wouldn't it? It is complicated by the fact that we would all be starting from different 'points' in a manner of speaking. There would also be certain pre-requisites - 'a healthy mind in a healthy body' kind of thing. I kid you not.

- At optimum weight.
- Eating an optimum diet.
- Optimum daily exercise - gym is good (yoga ideal) - but in the open air, too (a daily walk)
- Significant daily exposure to nature - be it at the ocean, in a forest, or in a garden

Some of the above can be combined - like a daily walk in nature, by the ocean, or work in a garden.

Then there is the 'purification' process of the subtler bodies - this includes -
- A sound habit life (addresses the etheric body)
- A sound emotional life (a sense of reverence is key here, as well as command of all emotions). The astral body cannot become an organ of perception if the body is still 'being used' subjectively. This becomes a very difficult training - I was actually helped in this area by a very gifted Intuitive. For me the first step was identifying where I 'left off 'and others 'began', a very important distinction to come to.
- A sound mental body, best occupied in rigorous pursuits........and so it goes.

The beginning of meditative life that really 'kicks in' does not mean all goes smoothly. Quite the reverse - life can suddenly get speeded up and all hell seems to breaks loose - conspiring to overturn the applecart.

Anyway, a nice idea but fraught with potential problems without adequate preparation and purification.

 

[smcder]

Well that would be a thread now, wouldn't it? It is complicated by the fact that we would all be starting from different 'points' in a manner of speaking. There would also be certain pre-requisites - 'a healthy mind in a healthy body' kind of thing. I kid you not.

- At optimum weight.
- Eating an optimum diet.
- Optimum daily exercise - gym is good (yoga ideal) - but in the open air, too (a daily walk)
- Significant daily exposure to nature - be it at the ocean, in a forest, or in a garden

Some of the above can be combined - like a daily walk in nature, by the ocean, or work in a garden.

Then there is the 'purification' process of the subtler bodies - this includes -
- A sound habit life (addresses the etheric body)
- A sound emotional life (a sense of reverence is key here, as well as command of all emotions). The astral body cannot become an organ of perception if the body is still 'being used' subjectively. This becomes a very difficult training - I was actually helped in this area by a very gifted Intuitive. For me the first step was identifying where I 'left off 'and others 'began', a very important distinction to come to.
- A sound mental body, best occupied in rigorous pursuits........and so it goes.

The beginning of meditative life that really 'kicks in' does not mean all goes smoothly. Quite the reverse - life can suddenly get speeded up and all hell seems to breaks loose - conspiring to overturn the applecart.

Anyway, a nice idea but fraught with potential problems without adequate preparation and purification.

Yes, I agree - sorry I put that out there without the proper caveats. Participants should be aware of the risks. However, there are a number of good books on starting a daily practice of basic meditation for those who don't have access to formal training and all the good ones do make your point about risks and that things actually tend to "fall apart" at some point in the early stages of the training - even with something as "simple" (ha) as following the breath and proper guidance is essential. There are also particular concerns for persons who have mental or emotional health issues. However, like an exercise program, everyone has to start somewhere and everyone has to assume some degree of risk.

Basic relaxation, following the breath, mindfulness or awareness practice, contemplative prayer, mantra meditation or loving-kindness practices seem safe enough (your thoughts on this statement, Tyger?) for stable persons with the pre-requisites you list. I would never want someone to go deeper than that without proper guidance - but many do anyway. Perhaps persons could find a local program, a Buddhist or TM center or someone trained in Holotropic Breathing or any other practice and then report in on their progress in the threads.

It would also be interesting to hear reports from persons with considerable experience as they move forward in their consciousness training/practices - or recounting early experiences in the practice, that would give a feel for what could be gained and encourage others to seek a formal practice. I believe the personal benefits are enormous, but as you say, it comes with risk and a price, always.

 

[Randall]

That would be an interesting thing to do - make a "challenge" for folks to meditate or try some other specific consciousness exploration for a period of time and report in along the way to compare experiences?

Because of the association of your idea with the suggestion of drug use in related posts, I have to make it clear that I cannot support any suggestion that anyone on this forum should start experimenting with hallucinogenic drugs of any kind, or for that matter, even regular drugs or alcohol. This thread is about philosophy, science and the unexplained, not drug culture.

 

[Tyger]

Actually, yes they were. To quote where this began: "Some Paracast members would greatly benefit from a properly conducted Ayahuasca or Salvia Divinorum session. I believe natural psychedelics such as these can aid us in our 'spiritual' evolution and will make even the most hardened of materialists think twice about all this locality of consciousness mumbo jumbo."

As pointed out, I thought you were responding to Nathaniel's just previous post which was suggesting meditation - hence explaining what I said. So we've got that sorted.

If this "rigorous self-training" were so "rigorous" it would have some respect for the

scientific method.

What makes you think I don't respect the scientific method?

And you have to do some thing about your reading comprehension - since the mention of 'self- training' is mentioned solely in regards to the inner development work - not material scientific work, which, however, does require inner work, too, of course, of a kind.

It sounds more like your version should be called "rigorous self-serving training", and your political slant on scientific research suggests you don't understand how science is supposed to work.

I definitely don't have time to correct all the misunderstandings you seem adept at creating, which I assume is innocent but who knows what you are thinking. Self-training refers to - for example - it is only you that can command your emotions. Self-mastery is a discipline that is only achieved by the self - therefore it is self-training.

My 'political slant' on the so-called psychic research in laboratories - and psychological research in laboratories - with scientists with 'legal rights' (brrrr - shades of horrors past) - is the same time-worn warning every forward thinking writer has been making since Aldous Huxley and before. Allowing the government to have this kind of information is problematic. It was problematic in the 1950's - it is problematic now. Imagine what uses such things can be made of in a Fascist state. You consider that a political slant?

As I've mentioned, the 'Spirit' is the realm of freedom - which does not mean that bad things have not happened in that realm. It is said that Helena P. Blavatsky ('The Secret Doctrine', 'Isis Unveiled') in the late 1800's found herself put into a condition called 'occult imprisonment' in the latter years of her life - and this was done by an Occult Brotherhood in America. [She was making public esoteric material - and starting to teach the occult path openly. What the Brotherhood effected from the subtler realms made her work impossible.]

 

[Nathaniel]

Ufology

I say 'loosely' because the word 'drugs' is usually used in such a broad context. For most people I know, the word 'drugs' brings up imagery of shady back street criminals selling heroin, or people who have lost all hope, tragically wasting their lives away in crack dens. This is not what these natural substances are for and so I tend not to think of them as 'drugs' but simply, well, nature. I suppose it depends on what a persons definition of the word 'drug' is.

Meditation as a non-religious practice is indeed very beneficial, this is what I've been explaining to you. Although I'm sure religious people who practice meditation benefit a lot too.

And yes, your last statement is fair. I wouldn't expect anybody to outright believe anything somebody else was telling them, nor (depending on the person and the context) would I expect them to dismiss it entirely.

I am not a stereotypical 'spiritualist'. I don't collect crystals, I don't wear beaded necklaces and I don't try and impose my beliefs on anybody else. I didn't come to my conclusions by reading a book or ancient texts. I did the hard work, looked within and got extremely profound results.

This is why I think it's important to experience things for yourself, first hand. Do the work and then come to your own conclusions.

 

[smcder]

Because of the association of your idea with the suggestion of drug use in related posts, I have to make it clear that I cannot support any suggestion that anyone on this forum should start experimenting with hallucinogenic drugs of any kind, or for that matter, even regular drugs or alcohol. This thread is about philosophy, science and the unexplained, not drug culture.

YES, in fact - I withdraw the suggestion in its entirety and I want to be clear as well that my suggestion was only for non-drug consciousness exploration, I fleshed this out a bit in the last post to accomodate Tyger's caveats, but I will be very clear here that I in no way advocate any form of consciousness alteration without proper guidance.

If you are interested in meditation or holotropic breath-work or other non-drug method of consciousness exploration - please consult a qualified authority or organization and do your own due diligence in terms of research as to any risks - you are responsible for your own safety.

 

[Randall]

Meditation as a non-religious practice is indeed very beneficial, this is what I've been explaining to you. Although I'm sure religious people who practice meditation benefit a lot too.

It's logical that if someone is in bad shape and their condition is improved with the inclusion of a religious element, that the inclusion of a religious element might be beneficial in a comparative manner. However at the same time, I'm skeptical that a religious element is necessary, so by leaving it out in the first place, perhaps we're further ahead. Though I can't be entirely certain of that either. I think that with the kind of religious teachings that go along with some meditation, it can be debated as to whether it's really religious in the first place.

 

[Tyger]

Basic relaxation, following the breath, mindfulness or awareness practice, contemplative prayer, mantra meditation or loving-kindness practices seem safe enough (your thoughts on this statement, Tyger?) for stable persons with the pre-requisites you list. I would never want someone to go deeper than that without proper guidance - but many do anyway. Perhaps persons could find a local program, a Buddhist or TM center or someone trained in Holotropic Breathing or any other practice and then report in on their progress in the threads.

Loving-kindness practices will never get one into any trouble for sure.

I am reminded of the stories told of the disagreement that erupted amongst the occult brotherhoods in the 18th/19th centuries. Supposedly the fissure opened along the question of whether to make the occult teachings public and no longer 'hidden' in esoteric by-invitation-only societies. I think with the long lens of two centuries more or less the jury may still be out on whether it was a good idea to dispense with the filtering of applicants to the inner knowledge.

I think everyone can find their own way. There are lots of bread crumbs. I am partial to personal connections made in the flesh, rather than on-line for this kind of work. That's my bias - and I see you have amended your post.

 

[smcder]

Loving-kindness practices will never get one into any trouble for sure.

I am reminded of the stories told of the disagreement that erupted amongst the occult brotherhoods in the 18th/19th centuries. Supposedly the fissure opened along the question of whether to make the occult teachings public and no longer 'hidden' in esoteric by-invitation-only societies. I think with the long lens of two centuries more or less the jury may still be out on whether it was a good idea to dispense with the filtering of applicants to the inner knowledge.

I think everyone can find their own way. There are lots of bread crumbs. I am partial to personal connections made in the flesh, rather than on-line for this kind of work. That's my bias - and I see you have amended your post.

I was listening to a talk on loving-kindness that indicated the practice alone could lead to enlightenment.

I have also heard that simply following the breath can lead to enlightenment. Either way, I'm sure it is normally a long and difficult path.

They say when the pupil is ready - the master appears, however - in rural Arkansas, the master needs worry about dogs, shotguns and any of a number of other hazards when making an appearance! ;-) So I have pursued my own path.

 

[Constance]

If your participation is going to come down to projecting your assumptions onto other people to justify your arguments, you'll need to find another target.

ufology, I don't think you're able to see the extent to which you yourself do that, as Tyger has pointed out.

It's logical that if someone is in bad shape and their condition is improved with the inclusion of a religious element, that the inclusion of a religious element might be beneficial in a comparative manner. However at the same time, I'm skeptical that a religious element is necessary, so by leaving it out in the first place, perhaps we're further ahead. Though I can't be entirely certain of that either. I think that with the kind of religious teachings that go along with some meditation, it can be debated as to whether it's really religious in the first place.

My impression is that most meditation practices these days (the ones that interest us in terms of consciousness studies) are concerned with spirituality rather than 'religion' as such. I think we need to understand and preserve the distinction.

 

[Randall]

ufology, I don't think you're able to see the extent to which you yourself do that, as Tyger has pointed out.

Please clarify by example. For example when did I tell someone what they had made into their god, then gone on to criticize them for it?

My impression is that most meditation practices these days (the ones that interest us in terms of consciousness studies) are concerned with spirituality rather than 'religion' as such. I think we need to understand and preserve the distinction.

I think that the word "spiritual" is a Folk Psychology/New Age word that in a pinch is fine for convenience, but all too often gets mushed in with the concept of disembodied souls, reincarnation, and so on. So I don't really like to use it because of the ease of association with those religious concepts. Objectively, the word "spiritual" doesn't appear to be any different than the word "personal", and the word spirit seems indistinguishable from that of personality. For example we could just as easily say, "My personal well being ..." as easily as we could say, "My spiritual well being ..." and we could just as easily say, "She's a kind spirit." as we could say, "She has a kind personality." So with respect to meditation we might just as easily say it's concerned with our personal well being rather than including religious allusions that carry all the extra baggage.

 

[Constance]

I've been meaning to post this link concerning recent 'endophysical' approaches to consciousness, time, quantum physics, and related subjects. The page links to abstracts from one of the international conferences devoted to this developing dialogue/multilogue which provide a sense of how these scholars, scientists, and thinkers approach problems we've discussed here.

"Endophysics, Time, Quantum and the Subjective"

 

[Tyger]

I was listening to a talk on loving-kindness that indicated the practice alone could lead to enlightenment.

Exactly so - the Way of the Heart.

I have also heard that simply following the breath can lead to enlightenment.

It has been said - probably by Rumi - that the paths to Enlightenment/God/Truth are as various as there are numbers of human souls - meaning that, we are all getting there one way or another, in our own ways.

Either way, I'm sure it is normally a long and difficult path.

It's a matter of clearing away - discerning the essential from the non-essential. There are exercises that are preparatory to the path opening up in earnest (when the directions come from within our own intuition).

I subscribe to no one way but this might benefit some -
LINK: ContemplateThis: The Six Exercises for Basic Esoteric Development of Rudolf Steiner

Rudolf Steiner was a Rosicrucian and one of those rare Initiates to make visible in the world his work. He founded Anthroposophy, a spin-off from the Theosophical Society after his disagreement with Annie Besant - then head over the Theosophical Society (founded by Helena P. Blavatsky). Steiner disagreed that there would be a physical return of the Christ - and that Krishnamurti could not therefore be the Christ Being in-the-flesh again. The disagreement resulted in his founding the Anthroposophical Society.

"Rudolf Steiner gave six exercises which are fundamental to his meditative work.

No. 1 - The Control of Thought

The first exercise has to do with the control of thinking. It is designed to keep our minds from wandering, to focus them, in order to strengthen our meditative work. There are several versions of this exercise. Here is one version:

Select a simple object - a pin, a button, a pencil. Try to think about it exclusively for five minutes. You may think about the way the object is manufactured, how it is used, what its history is. Try to be logical and realistic in your thinking. This exercise is best if practiced faithfully every day. You may use the same object every day or a new object each day, as you choose.

No. 2 - The Control of Will

Choose a simple action to perform each day at a time you select. It should be something you do not ordinarily do; it can even be a little odd. Then make it a duty to perform this action at that time each day. Rudolf Steiner gives the example of watering a flower each day at a certain time. As you progress, additional tasks can be added at other times.

This exercise is as hard as it is simple and takes a very strong intention to complete. To start you might think of it as you think of a dentist's appointment - you do not want to be late. It can be helpful to mark your success or failure on the calendar each day. If you completely forget at the time, but remember later, do it then and try to do better the next day.

No. 3 - Equanimity

The third exercise is the development of balance between joy and sorrow, pleasure and pain, the heights of pleasure and the depths of despair. Strive for a balanced mood. An attempt should be made not to become immoderately angry or annoyed, not to become anxious or fearful, not to become disconcerted, nor to be overcome by joy or sorrow. Rather should your natural feelings be permitted to be quietly felt. Try to maintain your composure. This leads to an inner tranquillity and purer feelings of the soul.

No. 4

This exercise is the development of a positive attitude to life. Attempt to seek for the good, praiseworthy, and beautiful in all beings, all experiences and all things. Soon you will begin to notice the hidden good and beautiful that lies concealed in all things. This is connected with learning not to criticize everything. You can ask how something came to be or to act the way it is. One way to overcome the tendency to criticize is to learn to 'characterize' instead.

No. 5

For this exercise, make the effort to confront every new experience with complete open-mindedness. The habit of saying, "I never heard that" or "I never saw that before" should be overcome. The possibility of something completely new coming into the world must be left open, even if it contradicts allyour previous knowledge and experience.

No. 6

If you have been trying the earlier exercises of thinking, will, equilibrium, positivity and tolerance, you are now ready to try them together two or three at a time, in varying combinations until they become natural and harmonious.

For more information see Guidance in Esoteric Training, by Rudolf Steiner"

They say when the pupil is ready - the master appears, however - in rural Arkansas, the master needs worry about dogs, shotguns and any of a number of other hazards when making an appearance! ;-) So I have pursued my own path.

One of the crucial preparatory initiations requires group work. So at some point there comes a great desire to associate with other like-minded individuals.

 

[Randall]

Exactly so - the Way of the Heart.
It has been said - probably by Rumi - that the paths to Enlightenment/God/Truth are as various as there are numbers of human souls - meaning that, we are all getting there one way or another, in our own ways.

That assumes we all have souls, we're all searching for Enlightenment/God/Truth, and that none of the paths are dead ends. So it seems rather premature to assume we're all going to get there ( wherever "there" is ).

... Steiner disagreed that there would be a physical return of the Christ - and that Krishnamurti could not therefore be the Christ Being in-the-flesh again. The disagreement resulted in his founding the Anthroposophical Society.

Interesting. For convenience sake, and to irritate sMcDer , here's the link to that in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophical_Society

 

[Constance]

Please clarify by example. For example when did I tell someone what they had made into their god, then gone on to criticize them for it?

I don't want to get into a re-examination of some of your posts and engage in a personal argument. I agree with Tyger's identification of your apparent belief that physical science is the only acceptable method of exploring the nature of reality, and with her recognition that you often use this narrow belief -- to which not all scientists subscribe -- to ridicule other approaches as 'woo' (thereby also ridiculing people who pursue those other approaches). This next post of yours is a typical example:

I think that the word "spiritual" is a Folk Psychology/New Age word that in a pinch is fine for convenience, but all too often gets mushed in with the concept of disembodied souls, reincarnation, and so on. So I don't really like to use it because of the ease of association with those religious concepts. Objectively, the word "spiritual" doesn't appear to be any different than the word "personal", and the word spirit seems indistinguishable from that of personality. For example we could just as easily say, "My personal well being ..." as easily as we could say, "My spiritual well being ..." and we could just as easily say, "She's a kind spirit." as we could say, "She has a kind personality." So with respect to meditation we might just as easily say it's concerned with our personal well being rather than including religious allusions that carry all the extra baggage.

You clearly haven't investigated any of the subjects you refer to in that post and thus are in no position to critique them, much less dismiss them. And you're simply wrong in categorizing all of them as 'religion', another subject in itself that you seem not to have researched.