Question for dB

[Koji K.]

ATS really has overgrown itself, I used to be a fairly frequent contributor there some time ago, but for the past couple of years I haven't bothered visiting anymore. It's just too chaotic, and its bizarre "points" system gives it a bad feel, IMO. When I took a brief look last month after two years of absence I found they had made it even more bizarre, with "stars" and "flags" and "friends" and "enemies" and all sorts of crazy things, it was like "conspiracy BBS: the RPG." The only times I go now are to check out things I hear about on the paracast, specifically the O'Hare pictures and Jeff's forum.

I think there is a tendency to place science on a pedestal, and this seems to be a trend that is growing. As an example, I don't know if anyone out there likes Wired magazine. I love Wired, and I've been a subscriber pretty much since issue 1. But over time it's become less about society and culture and more a sort of homage to science and technology, with the articles focusing less and less on the history and context of new developments and more and more in the style of "newsflash from the labs of MIT." I may not be describing this very well- it's more of a feeling than anything. It's not just the magazine of course, I use it as an example only because it's kind of a vanguard of the technocratic elements of society. (I don't want to sound like a luddite, either, I'm actually a pretty big tech geek.)

Anyhoo, neither of the above points directly contribute to the excellent discussion in this thread, so, carry on...

 

[BrandonD]

I think there is a tendency to place science on a pedestal, and this seems to be a trend that is growing. As an example, I don't know if anyone out there likes Wired magazine. I love Wired, and I've been a subscriber pretty much since issue 1. But over time it's become less about society and culture and more a sort of homage to science and technology, with the articles focusing less and less on the history and context of new developments and more and more in the style of "newsflash from the labs of MIT." I may not be describing this very well- it's more of a feeling than anything. It's not just the magazine of course, I use it as an example only because it's kind of a vanguard of the technocratic elements of society. (I don't want to sound like a luddite, either, I'm actually a pretty big tech geek.)

There's a huge difference between 1) the advocating of scientific thinking and 2) the promotion of the mythology that currently endears itself to the scientific community.

Number 1 almost never happens and number 2 is in my face on a daily basis.

 

[Koji K.]

There's a huge difference between 1) the advocating of scientific thinking and 2) the promotion of the mythology that currently endears itself to the scientific community.

Very true. It's the latter I was griping about in my last post, but scientific thinking itself is also not without its flaws.

 

[mike]

heres an example of where our body of knowledge had us thinking in ignorance that this species was gone, that it had died out 200 million years ago.
http://www.wollemipine.com/index.php

now our body of knowledge has been updated

the "list" of extinct plant species has been updated .
its one species shorter. the "list" is shorter, the gap narrowed


now im not suggesting the following is true, but its an example of how the jargon, the science of pathology will be able to interpret the data and draw usefull conclussions


1. External Appearance

This body was observed to be in a state of significant deterioration. It had been preserved with formaldehyde solution but not otherwise dissected. Picture 2. The cadaver was 44 inches long with a weight of 27 pounds when the preservative solution had been drained.

The external appearance of this cadaver was of a human embryo with an enlarged hairless cranium. Hands and feet were normal. Finger and toenails had been pared. Fingerprints of a swirl-left pattern were observed and taken. All ten fingers and toes were apparent. There was some vestigial webbing between first and second fingers and toes.

Sexual organs appeared to be those of a male. They were in an embryonic state and revealed no evidence of pubescence. Ears were partially formed, and showed some evidence of surgical intervention. Folds of skin had been drawn out from the surface of the scalp in an apparent attempt to create the impression of a more fully developed ear than was actually present. Lips were vestigial and the mouth contained no erupted teeth. The nose was also in an incomplete state of growth and had also received surgical intervention, resulting in what appeared to be a very thin and delicate organ.

Eyes were distinguished by extensive surgical intervention. They were almond-shaped and by far the most prominent facial feature. The eyeballs were not matured and appeared to have been sutured with opaque artificial lenses of an unknown type. Because of their extremely unusual condition, dissection of these eyes was not attempted. Picture 1.

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2. Dissection

An incision was made from the thorax to the scrotum. The skin was first extended from the fascia and the fascia was observed to be consistent with the appearance of an immature human male. The fascia were then dissected and the internal organs were observed. The position of the heart was observed to be vertical, as would be consistent with a very early fetus, prior to the fourth month. The organ was prominent and was weighed to be 1/70th of the mass of the body. When the organ was dissected it was found that there was direct communication between the two auricles through the formen ovale. The Eustachian valve was observed to be large. A ductus arteriosus was observed to communicate between the pulmonary artery and the descending aorta. This ductus opened into the descending aorta just below the origin of the left subclavian artery. Picture 3.

Alterations in the structure of the circulatory system suggested that this body had been surgically corrected to detach it from placental dependence in an artificial manner. The stomach was opened and found to be free of any food substances. The cardiac orifice was apparently atrophied, although the deterioration of the corpus made this difficult to determine. It is possible that this individual did not eat.
The liver was prominent and it was clear that the blood of the umbilical vein would traverse it before entering the inferior cava. The umbilical vein itself had been severed of its placental crown and returned to the circulatory system by a means that was beyond the scope of this dissection to establish.

The lungs were not developed. There were lateral pouches on either side of the central diverticulum, open through into the pharynx. The larynx was somewhat cartilaginous and the trachea was developed. It is probable that this individual did not breathe. The means of sustaining life is unknown, if he was ever alive in any practical sense.

The cranium was dissected and it was found that the skull was formed of exceptionally thin and pliant cartilaginous material, appearing to be bone precursor that had been affected in some manner, making it more than usually thin and delicate. The brain itself was extensively and surprisingly formed. There was an unknown cortex superimposed on the forebrain and extending as far back as the fissure of Ralando. Because of this extraordinary formation it was decided not to pursue dissection of the brain at this time. The organ was extracted and placed in fluid preservation pending further study.

Overall, this corpus presented the appearance of a human embryo of three to four months duration that had been the subject of considerable alteration and modification, some of it obviously surgical. Other modifications, such as that of the brain, were harder to understand. In addition to the alterations, there was the matter of the size of the body and the relatively mature condition of the epidermis and nails. It would appear that this fetus was separated from its mother and brought to a semi-functional state by artificial means.


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3. Conclusion

This is a human fetus that has been subjected to forced maturation without normal gestation. Its degree of functionality while living if it ever was alive is unknown.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I do think some of that goes on and I think the direction of scientific research is carefully steered in the same way that religious texts are 're-interpreted' over time to accommodate 'enlightened' thinking.

Spot on Rick!

 

[Rick Deckard]

now our body of knowledge has been updated

the "list" of extinct plant species has been updated .
its one species shorter. the "list" is shorter, the gap narrowed

You're talking about known quantities. The UFO question is an unknown quantity.

Actually, some plants and animals that have been declared as 'extinct' have been found again. In other words, when they declared them 'extinct', you're saying 'they narrowed the gap' when in reality they hadn't, so the analogy is even worse.

 

[Rick Deckard]

im certain that science can significantly close the gap on the ufo question...

I think you're original statement is entirely based on FAITH.

Your confidence that science will get to the 'truth' is almost entirely based on 'past performance'. Now, that's not an unreasonable stance to take (many live by it) but as a Financial Advisor will tell you, "past performance is no indicator of future returns" - in other words, you CANNOT be certain science 'will deliver the goods'.

 

[mike]

You're talking about known quantities. The UFO question is an unknown quantity.

the ufo question is an unexplained quantity, not an unknown one

science is the process by which we find the explainations

 

[Rick Deckard]

the ufo question is an unexplained quantity, not an unknown one

science is the process by which we find the explainations

Fine - that's not strengthening any of your arguments though, is it?

 

[mike]

science has sucessfully provided testable explainations for many of mans mysteries, i dont see why this one should be any different given the time and resources

 

[Rick Deckard]

science has sucessfully provided testable explainations for many of mans mysteries, i dont see why this one should be any different given the time and resources

It's also 'papered over' many of the mysteries that it cannot adequately explain - that's the beauty of mathematics. Don't know what something is? Never mind, we'll call it 'X' and include it in the calculations anyway. Ooh look, I've now explained EVERYTHING.

The only piece of maths you'll ever need:

answer = x

There you go. The UFO phenomena explained in scientific terms.

 

[David Biedny]

From dictionary.com, the definition of the term "science":

1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.

The process of gaining insight about the paranormal is not exclusive of science, in fact, it relies on the scientific method. The problem is in the scope of our current level of understanding of the nature of reality, the limitations of the instrumentation that we deploy to the task of doing science, and the wetware issues of ego, insecurity and greed, which hamper us as sentient, physical beings.

I have basic faith in science, but it's the scientists that worry me. I believe in the nature of human curiosity, but I fear the animal part of our being, the taste for blood and glory and dominance. We should really recognize that the current state of our science and technology is limited, perhaps more than we even imagine. We're just starting to see the glimpses of understanding of the Multiverse, and the truly astounding complexity of the framework of matter and energy. Anyone who thinks that we're at the zenith of our technological, biological and spiritual evolution is truly delusional. We've had electricity for what, a little over a hundred years, we've only directly visited one celestial body besides Earth, we use squat of the output of our local fusion reactor, we can't see beyond our bank accounts and the majority of us believe in the superiority of Chicken Salad Chichamanga Gods on Ice™.

The possibility of understanding what all this stuff actually is, and means, is always going to be out of our reach, unless we get honest with ourselves and admit that we are but children (in the scheme of maturity as it's measured in more universal terms). We're about as high and mighty as a cartoon character about to be erased from an old, musty videotape.

dB

 

[mike]

the current state of our science and technology is limited, perhaps more than we even imagine.

i prefer to think its limited ONLY by our imagination.

complex systems require complex jargon to explain them

man has risen to the top of the terrestrial food chain, why shouldnt we apply that principle to the exo terrestrial environment

you dont need permission, just the ability to do so

 

[Rick Deckard]

Yes, I have faith in science too. But I'm not certain that it can accommodate every problem we may encounter.

It's certainly a start and has an extensive track record in the engineering and medical disciplines. But that's because those areas deal with tangibles. Give a patient new drug, the patient get's better, a new drug is discovered. Tick box. Try drug again on different patient with same disease. Repeat until satisfied. All very good and (mostly) reliable and most of our 'advanced' technologies have been developed that way. It's basically 'trial and error' over a long period of time.

Now, how can you apply that sort of methodology to determining the nature of UFOs? Well, the best that science appears to offer is to attempt to build UFOs with our own technologies and try to reproduce the types of behaviours displayed by the 'real' UFOs. How will that get us any closer to discovering their true nature? It won't.

I suspect that until UFOs 'co-operate' and allow us to get our hands on them, science will not progress us any nearer to discovering their reality. BUT, once we DO have one of these 'things' in a hangar (and we may already have one, but who really knows) then yes, scientific methodologies will be very useful in determining what they're made of (or, more likely, what they're not made of), how they move through the air etc, because at that point the theories can be dropped - we'll have something tangible to work with.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the UFOs are never actually fully in our physical reality - what that means and how it affects our chances of 'obtaining' one for study, I have no idea.

 

[swatcher]

Mike and Rick,

I've been following your discourse with great interest. Don't know if this is against etiquette, but I'm wondering what you guys do for a living? I wonder if your view of the topic is influenced by your profession? Just curious

Thank you.

 

[swatcher]

Here is my 2 cents.

Let's say "reality" is Beethoven's 5th symphony. IMHO science is very good at explaining which instruments are used, and what frequencies occur at any given moment. But would that approach ever reveal what the 5th symphony is really all about? Examining the aural spectrum (Hz) would not even show us that the composer only used 12 notes!

Our current state of science is lacking in the following categories:

- context ( interdisciplinary exchanges are still very rare, and not really encouraged).
- understanding of form and aesthetics.

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), arguably the last man who knew everything about then current science, wrote (I'm paraphrasing): "The aesthetic viewpoint is more objective than the scientific viewpoint, because it separates the intellect from the will in the form of art. The ability to view nature aesthetically is a telltale sign of a genius."

And I say it again: A "fixed" reality manifests itself through infinite phenomena. It would take an infinite number of sensory organs to measure and understand it. Hence our current paradigm of science will fail. Good luck with the TheoryOfEverything

 

[Rick Deckard]

I wonder if your view of the topic is influenced by your profession? Just curious

Computer programmer.

Let's say "reality" is Beethoven's 5th symphony. IMHO science is very good at explaining which instruments are used, and what frequencies occur at any given moment. But would that approach ever reveal what the 5th symphony is really all about? Examining the aural spectrum (Hz) would not even show us that the composer only used 12 notes!

Dunno - you seem to be saying that science is incapable of the seeing the 'bigger picture' and is only really useful at examining specific aspects. Science is certainly applied that way - is more money spent on developing a new lip gloss or finding a cure for a cancer? I don't know the answer to that, but if someone tells me that more money is being spent on the lip gloss, I'd be inclined to believe them.

And I say it again: A "fixed" reality manifests itself through infinite phenomena. It would take an infinite number of sensory organs to measure and understand it. Hence our current paradigm of science will fail. Good luck with the TheoryOfEverything

My brain just exploded. Reminds me of something else I read - I'll try to paraphrase it from memory "Human beings are different aspects of the same 'oneness', experiencing itself..." <- I think I'm missing something from the end. It'll come back to me...

 

[mike]

well i was one of the original computer whizz kids.
my first certificate is from hewlett packard for an operator training course. i was 16 it was 1982. the mouse was something that ran across floors and scared the ladies.
the closest the office had to a PC was the Wang word processor which was just a bunch of dumb terminals hooked to a 20 megabyte hard disk drive.
the latter part of my career was spent working for the new south wales dept of health as an IT manager an interesting job in that it took me from dusty conduit tunnels wearing overalls, to fixing equipment in the operating theatres all gowned up in blue like a big smurf.
in school i was bumped up a year twice, and it was common for teachers to preface a question to the class with "can anyone but michael tell me..........."

i am a natural speed reader, and went to 10 different schools, spending my spare time in the librarys. i would soak up every book they had on science, then litterally work my way A to Z through the Sci Fi section.

for me science is being able to "explain" the difference between an ice box and a refrigerator

i know the science we have doesnt answer the UFO question.
im sure the science we will have ,one day will.

from icebox to refrigerator...and beyond

 

[Rick Deckard]

well i was one of the original computer whizz kids.
my first certificate is from hewlett packard for an operator training course. i was 16 it was 1982. the mouse was something that ran across floors and scared the ladies.
the closest the office had to a PC was the Wang word processor which was just a bunch of dumb terminals hooked to a 20 megabyte hard disk drive.

What no story about dropping a box of punched cards? Every mainframe programmer I know who worked in the 80's has a story about dropping a box of punched cards....it took 2 days to compile that program, you know...

i am a natural speed reader, and went to 10 different schools, spending my spare time in the librarys. i would soak up every book they had on science, then litterally work my way A to Z through the Sci Fi section.

You know that might work against your ability to 'think out of the box' - try 'unlearning' a few things.

 

[mike]

yes ive seen grown men sit on the floor and cry over a box of dropped punch cards. it was 2 in the morning and the banks cheque and statement run was already way over shedule .
and the old honeywell used to get so hot we had to open its doors and point fans at its guts.
i remember when microsofts fanciest graphic was a spinning planet earth in pixels where the first O in microsoft was, course in those days you had a choice of green white or amber screen to watch this marvel on

i was supposed to be a vet, my grandfather was a prominent one and even had the college funds put aside, but he supervised while i spayed (desexed) my first cat when i was 6, and while i succesfully completed the operation from start to finish (damn thing was pregnant, they always want them spayed AFTER they notice kitty is getting fat) the event put me off vetenary science.

years later i was to walk into the pathology dept of the royal hospital for women here in sydney and see a dead baby on a plastic kitchen breadboard, open from crotch to chin with its intestines spread out either side, one look at the lab technician slurping down hokien noodles from the malaysian takeaway next door , reminded me i just didnt have the stomach for that kind of work