Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...

[DissectionStalker]

My only comment is regarding the mention of whether there any black projects going on at the time of the Zamora sighting.
From my perspective and experience, there could very easily have been a black project going on at the time that would not be found by any FOIA or UFO researcher request even today.

Thank the ET-Gods you understand about the "need to know", which I have repeatedly posted about in this thread, and we both know Mr. MUFON here, Ben Moss, knows full well what that means. This is why I can easily believe we have active disinformation being applied to this case. MUFON was exposed just recently to have MIC/intelligence related moles within their organization, and, most certainly, Virginia is within the Federal Government's Intelligence & MIC related activities and domain, so when Ben Moss alleges this Socorro case in no way can be Human caused... well, I call foul, and say BS.

Ray Stanford at 26 years old was no trained UFO investigator. What I would like to know is who was sponsoring Ray with money at the time? We know he already knew people at Blue Book and probably other MIC related people too. All that remains an untold mystery to me. I know in the '70's Ray was funded by wealthy people, and it would be worthwhile to know a lot of details about that too!

One thing I know in my gut is Zamora was manipulated BIG TIME by what he should say, how he should say it, and it would not be what Zamora would normally do or say. These are FACTS.

One of the most OUTRAGEOUS manipulations is to say Zamora was referring to the Humans as Humanoids. This is so full of shit, BS, and nothing more than a despicable manipulation that Zamora was told to specifically use that word: Humanoid. I PROMISE YOU, there is no way a local [not well educated in vocabulary or UFO minded] native policeman would ever use that word naturally as part of his vocabulary. That is ET-UFO shit talk from the SOB type manipulators that did that to Zamora.

Whomever got Zamora to use that word is insanely BIASED and nothing more than an ET-UFO Freak. Sorry, that kind of manipulation just makes me want to vomit on whomever did that to Zamora. Likely, it could be Ray Stanford that did that too! Pure Puke! IMO.

 

[withoutlimits09]

Well it was a pleasure, kind of like talking to a tree, not a lot of good feedback but a great listener. As far as black projects that was looked at internally by the Air Force, FBI and probably others but there was nothing. Its easy to say that is what it was but there is no proof and it not make much sense to test that off the reservation so to speak.
As Ray mentioned to me bringing this stuff out will just increase attacks on himself and the data no matter how good the evidence is, and a few here drove that point home. But we will continue to work on getting this out in good time and not on the demands of nameless arm chair bloggers who contribute nothing but love to strut and fret their time on the stage. Asta la vista baby.

Take it to any major University. That is my point, there is no need to have to "work on getting this out." Make the raw footage available to academia, let them look at it. A bunch of UFO people debunked the Roswell Slides in mere hours, when the "Ray Stanford types" sat on the "evidence" for years. The Roswell slide holders did exactly what Stanford is doing with his evidence. That is they insulated it from anyone qualified to examine it and only showed it to those few people who "believed" in Roswell. The moment anyone outside of the kook fringe followers of the Slide holders got to see the "evidence" the "mystery" was solved. Release the evidence. This isn't something that takes work. The United States has THOUSANDS of Universities....start contacting them rather than stupid podcast hosts and you might actually get somewhere...

If MIT or any accredited university looked at Stanford's work and said "hey we have something here" I would not continue to attack Stanford.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Well it was a pleasure, kind of like talking to a tree, not a lot of good feedback but a great listener. As far as black projects that was looked at internally by the Air Force, FBI and probably others but there was nothing. Its easy to say that is what it was but there is no proof and it not make much sense to test that off the reservation so to speak.
.

Mr Moss, I am speaking as a Captain, USAF (Inactive), and served as a Special Agent of the AFOSI, specifically assigned to program protection duties as a counterintelligence agent while in Los Angeles and again among my duties as chief of a counterespionage operations branch at Wright Patterson AFB. For the record, before the Air Force I worked as an operational counterintelligence specialist for the FBI. After military duty, I was involved with CT operational activity. I am intimately familiar with the operational world and the USAF/DoD secret technology projects world. It's not just an 'easy' comment. I am qualified to know what I'm talking about as regards my comments above, just FWIW.

I would also note that I made no comment regarding the rest of this discussion, just that part I'm qualified to know something about from personal professional experience. You do not know for certain that the Zamora incident did not involve a black project is all I'm saying. No disrespect intended, I would just like to see it on the table in this discussion that no one involved here can say with true certainty that there was no black project involved. I specified that if any of the then tested technology has secret relevancy today, you're not going to find 'proof' that you speak of within the context of UFO research activity.

 

[Ben Moss]

Thanks Adventureman
Of course that could all be true, there is just no way to prove it either way. However, this is interesting:
"The USAF tried so desperately to locate a research facility that they hoped would explain what Zamora (and the other witnesses) saw, that they convened a highly classified conference at Holloman AFB, trying to find some terrestrial source for the high-performance object Zamora had seen within about 35 feet, with his glasses still ON, but they could find no source for the vehicle, and FTD's Major Hector Quintanilla told the CIA that despite all efforts, it was unexplained and unidentified. A copy of a declassified document concerning the secret Holloman meeting is in my files, from the National Archive visit with James Fox."
This whole discussion has been an eye opener, with one individual having a lot of info that tells me he was a visitor to Rays house, and although he does not use his real name I have pretty much figured out who this person is and now I know why he is so anti Ray. I will not call him out though since he is still somewhat a public figure. At least I have used my real name here, so I am not hiding behind a fake persona.
The only thing close to this would have been the Lunar lander, but that was not flying around at that time and certainly could not have gotten so far off of the base even if it did have an internal engine, which it did not at this time.
Thanks for your intelligent post. If I ever could find anything that would point to a man made object I would report it, but so far this case has so many interesting parts, and I am not one of the few here that throw out the "Stanford cool aid" rants, just trying to get to the truth.

 

[withoutlimits09]

I think there is a real phenomena to all of this, some "other" intelligence "doing something." However, when I read cases where an egg shape craft with "little telescopic gears" shot off into the sky in a fiery burst, I tend to think of more "earthy" technology. Things with "tiny port holes" like a "ship" or "landing gears" and "doors" sounds too archaic to be highly advanced.

"I saw the being standing in the craft's little window" those kind of statements just sound bogus to me. We are 5-10 years away from never needing a cockpit on our own technology. The idea the UFO needs "little windows" so the beings can "look at us" just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

This is all speculation. I know it doesn't constitute research, so please, Mr. MUFON, please don't tell me how little research is involved in what follows.

Anyone who has any knowledge of counterintel will tell you that it's easy to set up a hoax like this. You think the hard part is getting Zamora to the hoax site? That's easy! These guys would know his work schedule, where he patrols, when he takes a donut break, well in advance. They'd have pegged him as the mark well before the actual events took place, and I'm sure they could have planned to lure him out there. How, you ask? How about with a speeding driver! Yes! Get one of the counterintel rookies to speed down the road and make Zamora chase him! What happened to the speeding driver, anyway? So the story runs, Zamora broke off his hot pursuit of this guy when he heard a loud ruckus as of a rocket blasting off.

I am not suggesting that this is actually what happened; just that it's not so difficult as some have suggested to get Zamora out there to the hoax site, timing, etc.

What's more, this entire miraculous tale of the very same egg shaped UFO appearing months later in the background of a camera that Stanford, unknowingly putting his passive psychic superpowers to work, just happened to be pointing in this specific direction -- this tale is still filled with signs of covert counterintel, although I cannot imagine at this point why or what purpoe it would serve. It just seems so freakin silly that it's almost concocted like a South Park episode.

What a shame that his super powers did not inform his conscious self that they had directed him to point the camera thither, otherwise disclosure could have happened oh so long ago.

As for the pictures themselves, or the frame from a video (whatever) -- I am in agreement with Withoutlimits. Some little speck far off in the distance (and admit it, a truck sized object at 15 to 20 miles distance would be little more than a speck, if even that) is of very little consequence. It doesn't matter if after so-called enhancements it may or may not resemble an egg with little feet. That cannot function as any kind of evidence for the reaility of UFOs.

This story still smells like a PSY-OP, to be perfectly paranoid about it. It's so silly and outlandish, that I cannot help but think that the intelligence community has its fingers in this little pie, and that at the end of it all people will hear yet another news story similar to the Roswell Slides spectacle, and they'll think how perfectly the timing always works out, when twice or so a year the dumb UFO idiots have some perfectly ridiculous thing afoot that is sure to amuse the country for a day or two.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Nope the military investigated all branchnever left the base and did not have an engine.
es hoping to classify the case. There was no secret project to account for this sighting. As I mentioned before the only thing close was the Moon landers but in 1964 it

One of the key words in this post that is classic disinformation is: "engine".

There is no photo or proof any engine was involved. In FACT, there is proof of burning bushes, LOL, but NO giant blast holes or scattering of the ground surface which was very dusty and would be blown away by rocket or engine blast.

Zamora ON RECORD at youtube said as he approached the object on foot to see what it was he heard a big BOOM in the bottom and fire started coming out of the bottom [he means down below as he was coming from higher ground], so he ran back to his car to take cover BEHIND his car. So, the truth is Zamora took cover behind his car far away and could NOT see it clearly with the object down lower! LOL.

He was observing from behind his car, and he said it GRADUALLY pulled up to about 20-30 feet and stayed there for awhile and then took off. Since the object is said to have moved horizontally, then I can tell you it was WELL KNOWN since WWII that a tow cord/rope could be used to pull the craft away horizontally [into the wind, wink] and then release it to climb afterwards. YES. A hoax IS possible.

Of Course, I've NEVER said the HOAX or PSYOPS was aimed at Zamora or done by college students!!! NEVER did I even IMPLY that possibility. Why can I say that? Because, once again, the disinformation agent Ben Moss suggested I did just that, but I suggested other PSYOPS were involved from the Los Alamos and Kirkland Air Force base area. Yes, I get pissed off at this ET-BS, so I do think of these people as part of the ET-UFO Cult Freaks Wild Bunch of NM. But I clearly connect these UFO-Cult people to MIC and intelligence types, whether working as private contractors or employed in the MIC related research and bases in the region. Why do I suggest this??? Read the two other sightings in the area that the FBI reports. Yes, I ALREADY gave the links to this FBI report in a previous post in this thread. Everyone should read that report.

Obviously, this could be a light air craft or other Human device not requiring an engine. Zamora wore glasses, and the shock of the BOOM [blast with fire] would freak someone out. This Human EGG was making the rounds in the area to be tested and/or seen too. Zamora did not have to be the target. The EGG was moving around in the area to be seen, but no one had to be targeted specifically! Don't forget, people can monitor police radios too, and Zamora's whereabouts and usual rounds could be manipulated too IF he was specifically targeted.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

Thank the ET-Gods you understand about the "need to know", which I have repeatedly posted about in this thread, and we both know Mr. MUFON here, Ben Moss, knows full well what that means. This is why I can easily believe we have active disinformation being applied to this case. MUFON was exposed just recently to have MIC/intelligence related moles within their organization, and, most certainly, Virginia is within the Federal Government's Intelligence & MIC related activities and domain, so when Ben Moss alleges this Socorro case in no way can be Human caused... well, I call foul, and say BS.

Ray Stanford at 26 years old was no trained UFO investigator. What I would like to know is who was sponsoring Ray with money at the time? We know he already knew people at Blue Book and probably other MIC related people too. All that remains an untold mystery to me. I know in the '70's Ray was funded by wealthy people, and it would be worthwhile to know a lot of details about that too!

One thing I know in my gut is Zamora was manipulated BIG TIME by what he should say, how he should say it, and it would not be what Zamora would normally do or say. These are FACTS.

One of the most OUTRAGEOUS manipulations is to say Zamora was referring to the Humans as Humanoids. This is so full of shit, BS, and nothing more than a despicable manipulation that Zamora was told to specifically use that word: Humanoid. I PROMISE YOU, there is no way a local [not well educated in vocabulary or UFO minded] native policeman would ever use that word naturally as part of his vocabulary. That is ET-UFO shit talk from the SOB type manipulators that did that to Zamora.

Whomever got Zamora to use that word is insanely BIASED and nothing more than an ET-UFO Freak. Sorry, that kind of manipulation just makes me want to vomit on whomever did that to Zamora. Likely, it could be Ray Stanford that did that too! Pure Puke! IMO.

Bravo.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

Take it to any major University. That is my point, there is no need to have to "work on getting this out." Make the raw footage available to academia, let them look at it. A bunch of UFO people debunked the Roswell Slides in mere hours, when the "Ray Stanford types" sat on the "evidence" for years. The Roswell slide holders did exactly what Stanford is doing with his evidence. That is they insulated it from anyone qualified to examine it and only showed it to those few people who "believed" in Roswell. The moment anyone outside of the kook fringe followers of the Slide holders got to see the "evidence" the "mystery" was solved. Release the evidence. This isn't something that takes work. The United States has THOUSANDS of Universities....start contacting them rather than stupid podcast hosts and you might actually get somewhere...

If MIT or any accredited university looked at Stanford's work and said "hey we have something here" I would not continue to attack Stanford.

I hate to keep replying with posts like "Exactly", but......Exactly.

 

[EQ42]

To Ray and the guys from MUFON, I apologize for starting this thread. I started it out of frustration. I think Ray is sincere and can think of no one I consider more intriguing in ufology. The life he's led, the people he's known, it's just unreal. If Ray doesn't want to share his evidence with the public I can respect that- but I also don't want to hear about it anymore. However, I would still love to hear him talk about his involvement with the contactees, channeling, any paranormal experiences he's had that he considers genuine, any experiences he's had involving the government, his brother who is a well known parapsychologist, the history of Project Starlight International, etc- there is no shortage of interesting stuff Ray can talk about. Even though I often find him frustrating, I still listen to all the Ray interviews I come across and really hope we can get another Paracast interview soon.

 

[TonyAngiola]

We hope to have all this info on the new website we are working and more. Thanks.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

To Ray and the guys from MUFON, I apologize for starting this thread. I started it out of frustration. I think Ray is sincere and can think of no one I consider more intriguing in ufology. The life he's led, the people he's known, it's just unreal. If Ray doesn't want to share his evidence with the public I can respect that- but I also don't want to hear about it anymore. However, I would still love to hear him talk about his involvement with the contactees, channeling, any paranormal experiences he's had that he considers genuine, any experiences he's had involving the government, his brother who is a well known parapsychologist, the history of Project Starlight International, etc- there is no shortage of interesting stuff Ray can talk about. Even though I often find him frustrating, I still listen to all the Ray interviews I come across and really hope we can get another Paracast interview soon.

I get all that, and thank you. But speaking for myself, I am extra cautious. I'm 44 now, but at one time in my teens I bought the entire Billy Meier story. I sent away for mail order VHS tapes of the "Beamship Movies" & others. I watched those in fascination. I tried using it as evidence to sway non believers. Up until then, I never saw such clear photo's and good video. It was very good. In fact, too good to be true one might say. Then low and behold, time passes on, and the entire thing was a fraud. I feel foolish now for believing it. I guess I'll use the excuse that I was 17 years old and it was the 1980's. But in those video's, you'll see ex-Air Force officer Wendelle Stevens enthusiastically buying the entire story. Holding up books that represent "only 1/8th" of the information ("so far" he says) of the translations between Meier and Semjase. There was a lot to this case to make it sound legit. How do I not know Rays work will go way of the Roswell Slides and Meier? Just release the damn info Ray. If it holds up, it holds up and you'll go down in history as the person to finally prove the mystery. The only other way it can turn out is fraud. If it's legit, lets get it out there to the likes of the Roswell Research Slides Group, etc. What are you afraid of?

 

[TonyAngiola]

Yes, we are working towards that. Building the new site is part of it. Just need some time to get it done. I'm working on it right now.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Thanks Adventureman
Of course that could all be true, there is just no way to prove it either way. However, this is interesting:

Yeah, this IS interesting... Your previous post about this Human possibility indicated just the OPPOSITE viewpoint here:

When you eliminate all of the posibilities what is left is the truth. If you knew the case well you would know that the Air Force and Blue Book looked long and hard for a human answer to Socorro.

Oh, there seems to be a huge contradiction with what you suggest in two different posts above.

Let's just get some clarity here, PLEASE.

ONE QUESTION that is either a Yes or No answer...

1) Could Socorro be Human caused or not????????

Thank you in advance Ben Moss [Chief Field Investigator for MUFON VA] for answering this important question with either yes or no.

Will Ben Moss just simply ignore such an important question, or will he be an honest man and answer with a yes or no?

 

[Constance]

It's also par for the course that there just had to be a controversy within a controversy. There's an alien symbol on the craft but let's create a bogus symbol - so we can weed out tricksters & other's. Huh? What?

If they publicized the actual symbol, Creepy, they would not be able to distinguish a future hoax employing that same symbol from a future anomalous event in which the same symbol appeared on the craft. The former would be a waste of time, whereas the latter would be significant.

My only comment is regarding the mention of whether there any black projects going on at the time of the Zamora sighting.
From my perspective and experience, there could very easily have been a black project going on at the time that would not be found by any FOIA or UFO researcher request even today. If the results of that project were such that there was a major breakthrough and the technology is relevant today in a classified platform/application, DoD etc. would never give that up as having been operationally tested at the time of the incident of interest even if fifty years ago.

If it were a case of hidden advanced technology, though, why would it be flown about and landed in plain view?

What's more, this entire miraculous tale of the very same egg shaped UFO appearing months later in the background of a camera that Stanford, unknowingly putting his passive psychic superpowers to work, just happened to be pointing in this specific direction -- this tale is still filled with signs of covert counterintel, although I cannot imagine at this point why or what purpoe it would serve.

I don't see the signs of 'covert counterintel' in this chance occurrence. What are they? Moreover, as you yourself ask, "what purpose would it serve"?

his brother who is a well known parapsychologist

I'd like to know more about the brother's work, or even just his name if you have it. Thanks.

 

[Constance]

Will Ben Moss just simply ignore such an important question, or will he be an honest man and answer with a yes or no?

I have another question: will DS ever stop showing his ass?

 

[Burnt State]

It's not a smudge but it's not a bright clear perfect photo like you see here. The crafts discovered where not the focus of the photo remember. Ray and Hynek each separately focused on the dynamite shack snapping their photos seconds apart. 2 people with 2 different cameras a few feet apart from each other

OK so they are each shooting still frame 35mm film? I really don't understand why people who take time to promote this material can not make clear statements about the medium capturing the objects in question. High resolution scans of a 35mm negative, again depending on the grain, will still not yield much of anything valuable to talk about, especially when these objects are so insignificant in the frame and the focus was on the shack. Sure, even with a super tight f-stop dots are still just dots. This lack or basic clarity and purposeful obfuscation, is all that recent claims of Ray having the goods have provided to date. With all due respect to Chris O'Brien, whose word I think is quote valuable, I do not see how this image could be of any real value beyond basic speculation.

All I will say is that the craft in the picture is exactly what Lonnie described. It is not a fake, it is clear, it was a lucky grap I will give you that but the distance from the camera confirms it is not staged.

And this is the bigger problem I have with Ray as the guy who will crack it all open. The shooting of the ufo on film is simply an incredibly rare event, a lucky grab indeed. Getting one photo of a UAP is an outstanding event. Getting more than one for a single event is incredibly rare: not much more than a dozen across time that are worth talking about I would think. Shooting objects previously witnessed must be statistically even more rare of an event. Outside of Gulf Breeze and earthlight phenomenon, like the many mountain lights or Hessdalen valley type of lights, where are the repeated shooting of unidentified flyng objects found?

How is it that Ray is the UFO image capturing magnet and is seemingly able to see Ufo's where no one else can?Finding dino tracks where others have not is one thing, but repeated UFO capture is only seen with one other major figure and that one armed Swiss farmer isn't given much credit any more except by a select few. I understand he could be a very convincing person up close I'm sure, but I'm still not understanding how he's much different than people who say they keep capturing Bigfoot? Unfortunately here we are talking about extremely limited optical products that only a select few say is convincing. When you add it all up there's really not a lot there that's very convincing even when those who have seen material report on it.

The photo was take some months after the Soccoro incident and in the foreground is the dynamite shack that was located near the landing site. Off in the distance, at the edge of the photo, just above the horizon, are four small dots that Ray had never noticed before. When they are blown up in size, two of the dots look exactly like the Soccer object—one even has its landing legs extended. I have Ray's complete analysis process.

Chris, I know you know optics. How can you possibly say that the four small dots on even the very finest of fine grain slide film are going to reveal much of anything at all? Given the conditions of the shot as expressed by those in the know how could such an optical event take place when blowing up dots will only provide you with even more blurry dots of some birds with their legs down, perhaps ducks? Could anyone even physically tell the difference between the two? How these claims are even remotely reasonable boggles the mind.

 

[Burnt State]

I think there is a real phenomena to all of this, some "other" intelligence "doing something." However, when I read cases where an egg shape craft with "little telescopic gears" shot off into the sky in a fiery burst, I tend to think of more "earthy" technology. Things with "tiny port holes" like a "ship" or "landing gears" and "doors" sounds too archaic to be highly advanced.

"I saw the being standing in the craft's little window" those kind of statements just sound bogus to me. We are 5-10 years away from never needing a cockpit on our own technology. The idea the UFO needs "little windows" so the beings can "look at us" just doesn't make sense to me.

Then you would be saying the majority of some of the very intriguing cases make no sense. So common is the high strangeness factor that you are highlighting here in this case that Rutkowski's annual UFO report uses that as an evaluative factor, as does Koi's system if i remember correctly and as do many others. It may be indicative of other themes and memes but such high strange elements are without question a feature of UFO cases. I don't think it can be used to discount cases or dismiss them as human in origin. It's just one of the many extremely perplexing aspects of the UFO experience.

 

[DissectionStalker]

OK so they are each shooting still frame 35mm film? I really dint understand why people who take time to promote this material can not make clear statements about the medium capturing the objects in question.

Hey, the Roswell Slide people at least told us the film format [35mm] AND the film type [Kodachrome].

We know Ray [and any good MUFON investigator] should not only KNOW those two specs, but they should ALSO know the camera and lens used too.

Let's see if you can get an answer????????????????? Good luck. Wink.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Constance: There could be any number of reasons why a test craft would have to put down in a given spot. Technical difficulties, etc. It may be that Zamora simply happened upon it. Ask anyone who's ever lived near an area where testing goes on, you see the stuff from time to time. Over the years they have become smarter with location and time of day, but this was the 1960s in this case. Just because someone happened upon where it put down (for some likely necessary reason) doesn't eliminate the secret technology test option.