Redfern, Ritzman, and Tonnies Show

[jritzmann]

I dunno Jeff, I mean isn't that like saying (and admittedly it's an extreme but I'm making a point here) "Cancer research has run it's course" simply because we've found no cure? As far as I'm concerned, this option stays on the table until we've explored the entire universe and found it vacant.

I said it stayed on the table too. We cant discount anything, but then again, there are other options to be looked at when one isnt panning out after 60 years. What I'm saying is the ETH gets far too much attention for far too little. Other ideas should be getting just as much. (at least to me)

But you can't test any of that because it's all theoretical, which basically means it's useless to us. This is what I meant by my earlier "pudding" comment. What's the point of positing an alternate dimensional explanation if we can't even agree on what an "alternate dimension" actually is (let alone test for one)?

Well I'd say it's all theoretical at this point. We know no more since 60 years ago following a ETH. There's been papers published on multiverse theory, quantum theory, etc. The problem isnt the amount of info, it's that the field or "fans" as I call them these days of this enigma want the instant gratification of the ETH, not the difficult extrapolation of extraordinary theories and possibilities.

Lately I'm beginning to think it's not that we aren't asking the right questions but rather that we're incapable of asking them, that we simply lack the intellectual vocabulary.

I'd say we're possibly incapable of even *knowing* all the questions. Thats always been the biggest issue, people want answers and we dont even know all the questions yet.

 

[nycjeff]

Not to break up the flow of the discussion on dimensionality, but I had a separate thought on the meaning of research as was being discussed in relation to Roswell, etc.
It didn't seem to be acknowledged that there are different classifications of research, although it seemed like everyone got there eventually by what they were saying. I haven't finished listening to the episode, but I thought it might be worth pointing out in case no one made the distinction in the second half of the show.

From wikipedia:
Primary research
Primary research (also called field research) involves the collection of data that doesn't already exist.
This method of research is always used as the first technique, this can then lead on to Field research.
The term is widely used in market research.
[edit] Methods of collection primary data
* Observation: Looking at and recording what people do and how they behave. Today, store cameras can be used to observe consumer behaviour
* Experiments: Market researchers can use experimental techniques. e.g. test marketing, blind taste tests
* Surveys: Involves asking questionnaires to respondents
* Consumer panels: A select group of consumers that the company regularly surveys to identify changing attitudes

Secondary Research
Secondary research (also known as desk research) involves the summary, collation and/or synthesis of existing research rather than primary research, where data is collected from, for example, research subjects or experiments.

The term is widely used in market research and in medical research. The principle methodology in medical secondary research is the systematic review, commonly using meta-analytic statistical techniques, although other methods of synthesis, like realist reviews and meta-narrative[1] reviews, have been developed in recent years.

 

[SnakeOil]

Damn I love you stories. I don't even care if you're making it up or not. Good Shiat. Anyway...

"Who or what was responsible?"

I dont know. I have guesses which I keep to myself. It all depends on who you ask when they read the little account of it I've written above. Some say "angles", some say the "aliens opposite" some say whatever guided me to start looking into this to begin with. Who knows, your guess is a good as mine. I can tell ya it sure as hell wasnt me, or my family or our company. I'll swear that on whatever ya want.

Yes...but what do YOU think? We're all kooks here, J. Qualify it any way you need to. I know this isn't therapy and in the end we're all strangers, but still, impressions can be important. And I don't think anyone around here's going to bash you too much.

But if you must keep it private I won't prod you any more than this.

"And what was their motive?"

I guess to make me tell the crowd what I was so torn over saying to start with. The bottom line was I believed I'd found something truly toxic. But did I keep it to myself and not warn people of potential harm.

The motive (if correct) would say it was something or someone else, possibly as some have suggested, the opposite/positive of the "alien" negative.

Hmm...Couple of points.

1) It sounds to me like when you say "demonic" you don't mean "caused by demons", but the personal fallout resembles that sort of thing. Yes? My original take wasn't that it was demons at work, but that the same "wacko" perceptual mechanisms that allow people to see ghosts and such are the same at work for UFO's and aliens. But what you're saying doesn't necessarily support that, does it?

2) When I suggest considering a motive...think of the responsible party as just some other guy on the street. Some guy downtown trying to sell you his pants. A politician telling you that they dont' have to answer to congress because of executive privlege. Or my personal fave, a vice president that says he's not a part of the executive branch. Just because somebody got in and out of yuor house under mysterious circumstances doesn't mean that their motive are any more morally justified than any of our own. Some one was in you house, dude. What's up with that?

All I know is I've never seen anyone else talk about that symbol, or post a pic of it. And I've looked. I've never released it into the public, and it's more or less become the icon to me of my involvement in this stuff.

(sigh)...you're really going to make me ask? OK, I'm not proud.

Ahem...

Jeff, would you please kindly take a picture of that symbol and let us see it?

Moving on...BrandonD. What is meant by another dimension? Something additional to the 4 we already perceive. Something that you could point to if you had the appropriate appendage. I'm not necessarily saying that something can't possibly be popping in and out of what we call reality, I'm just saying that it most likely needs another name. Maybe there are creatures that are able to move around in the 4th (time), but we've never seen one that I know of. I wonder what it would look like? No one's ever seen another dimension, and calling it abstract isn't doing the concept justice by a damn sight. I'm afraid I have to agree with CapnG. We're unable to define our terms well enough because we lack the knowledge. Speculation with regard to extra dimensions has limited value for that reason. I don't mind the speculation, though. Hey, I'm a trekkie, I think it's fun. But recognise what it's worth in the end (not much, just a fun mind wander). Call a spade a spade.

I have a hard time with theories that deal with altered reality, like from the way it's normally perceived. What is reality? What is non-reality? Do you see what I'm getting at? I have exactly one data point, which is that I am alive. Or am I? I've never been dead, or anything other than alive that I'm aware of. So how can I postulate reasonable theories that deal with the unreal when I've only ever seen the real? Tricky...

 

[jritzmann]

Yes...but what do YOU think? We're all kooks here, J. Qualify it any way you need to. I know this isn't therapy and in the end we're all strangers, but still, impressions can be important. And I don't think anyone around here's going to bash you too much.

But if you must keep it private I won't prod you any more than this.

I got the distinct feeling that when I embarked so many years ago on studying the UFO question, that I was doing the right thing. Like it was important. Almost like I was led into doing it. I'd say whatever did the symbol was the instigator of that feeling, but wasnt the "aliens" or whatever one chooses to call them. Who or what it was, I have no idea.

1) It sounds to me like when you say "demonic" you don't mean "caused by demons", but the personal fallout resembles that sort of thing. Yes? My original take wasn't that it was demons at work, but that the same "wacko" perceptual mechanisms that allow people to see ghosts and such are the same at work for UFO's and aliens. But what you're saying doesn't necessarily support that, does it?

Yes and no, no hard answers for that. Do I think it's the same mechanism that say, applies to ghosts and so on? Yeah. There is a definite occult connection that goes thru all the engimatic subjects, and the UFO/alien question isnt immune from that. Are they demonic in the sense that they come from "hell" and are really fallen angels? I dunno. My view is that "God" and religion in general is alot bigger and more complex then we'll ever know. And, even scarier, more tangibly real and involved with us then we'll ever know. I think it's entirely possible that what we've percieved thru the ages as "demons" may very well be what part of the UFO enigma is about. (And no I dont mean us seeing ETs and thinking them to be evil)

2) When I suggest considering a motive...think of the responsible party as just some other guy on the street. Some guy downtown trying to sell you his pants. A politician telling you that they dont' have to answer to congress because of executive privlege. Or my personal fave, a vice president that says he's not a part of the executive branch. Just because somebody got in and out of yuor house under mysterious circumstances doesn't mean that their motive are any more morally justified than any of our own. Some one was in you house, dude. What's up with that?

I tend to think of things in the most simplistic terms and ways. If I was led to research the UFO question, and found a snippet of an answer then didnt want to come forth with it due to ego, or being embarrassed by it, or it being unpopular...then whatever drew they symbol put it in my face that I knew what I'd found...now did I have the balls to come out with it. Apparently I needed to spill what I'd come across. You deduce from that whatever you feel is right.

(sigh)...you're really going to make me ask? OK, I'm not proud.

Ahem...

Jeff, would you please kindly take a picture of that symbol and let us see it?

Sorry. I have never publicly shown it, and for very good reasons. I have it drawn and put away in a dated envelope. If I ever see it out in public, I'll be able to verify it as mine. I do have it copyrighted to me, but I know what would happen...it'd go all around then net with every freak in the fringe of ufodom trying to tell me or everyone else what it means and attributing all sorts of way out crap to it. It's very personal to me, and unless I can share it without it getting all over, I'd just as soon keep it to myself. I drew it for David one time when he visited so he's seen it (I think), the mirror was in storage...now it's in my sunroom.

 

[SnakeOil]

Hmm...

And hmm...

OK. I'll drop it there. If you change your mind, I'll be the first in line.

 

[cottonzway]

I really enjoyed this show. Not because I "learned" a whole bunch but because it was good to get some of what is going on in the UFO field out there. I have to say I really do feel Mac Tonies speaking because he sounds like an intelligent and well-spoken man.

BTW, Jeff don't feel like you have to put up pics of your symbol to make others happy. A reasonable person can hear in your voice that you are being honest. I think you are making the right choice by not doing that.

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

Jeff,

Just wanted to let you know that listening to you describe your experiences is just about the creepiest thing I've heard in years. I've been listening to your old interviews late at night while I'm working alone on my computer.. and seriously, it's made me jumpy and a bit freaked out from time to time.

Like you have said, I can't understand why anyone would actually seek out an interaction with the ET phenomena. Whether it is toxic, evil, benevolent, or just plain enigmatic, it's foolish to think that humans will come out ahead of the game when they encounter something so bizzare face to face.

I know you said you aren't into doing a book. Do you think you'll ever reconsider? I'd love to know more about your experiences and thoughts on what it all means.

 

[SnakeOil]

Jeff, if I've offended you in any way I offer my sincerest apologies.

But I feel like I've been misrepresented in the last two posts. I don't ask for entertainment's sake. Like anyone here (I would presume), I maintain a view of the world that I'm constantly augmenting. I'm not trying to badger you because it's fun, but because you may have information that's valuable to my interpretation of my existence (and I'm sorry if this sounds melodramatic, but there you are). I've never had an experience like that, so I have to live vicariously through yours or others. I'd be the first to admit that I'd probably pee my pants if I had my own. And there was never any question about your honesty.

Why would I seek this? I would counter with why does anyone look into the unknown? I'm not saying that I want to have my very own ET experience, but I certainly want to understand it. And I don't think you can do that without asking questions.

Ah, well...whatcha gonna do? The grass is always greener, blah, blah, blah... In any case, I thank you for what you were willing to share. Please forgive me if I came off like a d1ck.

 

[jritzmann]

Jeff, if I've offended you in any way I offer my sincerest apologies.

But I feel like I've been misrepresented in the last two posts. I don't ask for entertainment's sake. Like anyone here (I would presume), I maintain a view of the world that I'm constantly augmenting. I'm not trying to badger you because it's fun, but because you may have information that's valuable to my interpretation of my existence (and I'm sorry if this sounds melodramatic, but there you are). I've never had an experience like that, so I have to live vicariously through yours or others. I'd be the first to admit that I'd probably pee my pants if I had my own. And there was never any question about your honesty.

Why would I seek this? I would counter with why does anyone look into the unknown? I'm not saying that I want to have my very own ET experience, but I certainly want to understand it. And I don't think you can do that without asking questions.

Ah, well...whatcha gonna do? The grass is always greener, blah, blah, blah... In any case, I thank you for what you were willing to share. Please forgive me if I came off like a d1ck.

Dude, not at all. Everyone asks and there's no crime in that whatsoever. I just have alot of issues with posting it, which I've mentioned. It's all me, and you didnt do anything wrong. The most personal aspect of it that I dont think people understand (largely because I dont explain it correctly) is that the symbol is all I have from all those years that I can lay my hands on. I got nothing else to show physically for it. And despite that I'm sure many people just blow it off and think I did it...but I didnt, and I know thats gotta be rather rare to have something like that...and thats why I'm so tight about it.

So no worries please. You're no dick, and I certainly dont mind anyone asking. No need for apologies. K?

 

[SnakeOil]

Oh man, I think I'm gonna cry!! Big hug!

Alright, no harm, no foul. After the other guys posted I felt like I had been out clubbing baby seals. Had to correct that. To quote, "the Dube abides".

 

[ondafritz]

I actually have listened to this episode a few times due to the fact that it was very enlightening. I agree with the panel that you can't discount anything. But to get to the bottom of it I believe you need to need to start at the top of the brew by skimming the waste. My most frustrating issue with the field of UFO's specifically is the obvious fraud that exist in the terms of those who call themselves "researchers". And I believe that until the wheat is separated from the chaff then we are never going to get a clear picture of this situation.