Reframing the Debate: A Path Forward or Backward?

[mike]

Do we really want to know if we’re not alone in the universe?

This discussion about the proper protocols of communicating with aliens is not the most mainstream scientific debate ever concocted. But it got a lot of attention here in San Jose at the annual meeting of the ultra-mainstream American Association for the Advancement of Science.


Astronomer Jill Tarter, a pioneer of SETI who is neutral about the more active approach, organized a symposium on the topic. Before the symposium, two advocates of the idea, Shostak and Douglas Vakoch, appeared at a press briefing alongside science-fiction writer David Brin and planetary scientist David Grinspoon.

In my opinion Brin is one of the best minds in this field, i recommend his novel Startide rising

Yes its SciFi, but he uses it as a vehicle to make some very salient conjecture about what might be happening.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Just remember wars and UFOs as Mack Maloney has mentioned many times in the past. Marduk : They most likely have made contact! Does Not mean so called aliens rather footage of the operators of the objects.

 

[Randall]

I honestly don't think meaningful disclosure is going to come from our side at this point in our intellectual evolution.
Even if they had an open day at area 51 and trotted out the sports model and a grey.
The skeptics will still say they are props, and the superstitious will say Satan.

And that applies if they park a mother ship over London New york Tokyo and Rome.

It will be oh noes PBB.
Project Blue Beam - RationalWiki

I think the best way is for us to Tech up and become space-faring ourselves, and i suspect that's the plan from their pov too.

I imagine the galactic trend is species that get to this point usually have sorted out their neurosis by the time they do.

Especially if that species has evolved to a post biological status, all those hot hormones and biological imperatives get left behind.

I share your sentiments. Even I'd be skeptical of official disclosure and I'm already a believer. The only way disclosure would work for me is if there were a civilian oversight committee with access to whatever they want, who in cooperation with military experts could separate UFOs from legitimate tactical threats originating from known locations that should remain classified, and then issue official news releases about the rest.

This should be possible with enough political pressure, but I don't know enough about how the political system in the USA works to suggest a way of getting that into place.

 

[marduk]

I share your sentiments. Even I'd be skeptical of official disclosure and I'm already a believer. The only way disclosure would work for me is if there were a civilian oversight committee with access to whatever they want, who in cooperation with military experts could separate UFOs from legitimate tactical threats originating from known locations that should remain classified, and then issue official news releases about the rest.

This should be possible with enough political pressure, but I don't know enough about how the political system in the USA works to suggest a way of getting that into place.

Honestly, I don’t think human power structures would even have the language to disclose anything.

 

[Trajanus]

Even if they had an open day at area 51 and trotted out the sports model and a grey.
The skeptics will still say they are props, and the superstitious will say Satan.

And that applies if they park a mother ship over London New york Tokyo and Rome.

Lol some die hards will reject the reality of ET no matter what evidence is presented. Just like the flat earth people....But if the government has real proof to disclose, or if ETs sought to reveal themselves openly, that would essentially convert humanity. Those who still don't believe would be marginalized.

 

[Trajanus]

Winston Churchill was accused of ordering a cover-up of a Second World War encounter between a UFO and a RAF bomber because he feared public "panic" and loss of faith in religion, newly released secret files disclose.

I doubt the truth of this. Back then, any unusual flying object not ours would be assumed to be enemy, like the foo fighters were at first.

 

[Trajanus]

I share your sentiments. Even I'd be skeptical of official disclosure and I'm already a believer. The only way disclosure would work for me is if there were a civilian oversight committee with access to whatever they want, who in cooperation with military experts could separate UFOs from legitimate tactical threats originating from known locations that should remain classified, and then issue official news releases about the rest.

I think it goes without saying that the government wouldn't disclose unless it had incontrovertible proof (i.e. to all but e.g. religious and other nuts) available for display and examination. It would look awful foolish otherwise.

 

[Randall]

Honestly, I don’t think human power structures would even have the language to disclose anything.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Randall]

I think it goes without saying that the government wouldn't disclose unless it had incontrovertible proof (i.e. to all but e.g. religious and other nuts) available for display and examination. It would look awful foolish otherwise.

That assumes that their disclosure would have some agenda to actually prove something. But if it were done in the spirit of transparency rather than proving anything, then they wouldn't have to worry about looking foolish, except perhaps to the extent that they cannot begin to compete with the technology ( yet ).

 

[marduk]

Can you elaborate on this?

It's like you can't even describe the experience properly. I don't know how to say it. Mike, any ideas?

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Why would the government ever disclose? What would be in it for them? To expect the government to act in a benevolent way to share such information makes no sense to me. Even the most nuts & bolts explanation (humanoid beings from another hum drum planet and had their own industrial age and seem to mirror us in many respects) would cause tremendous pain and suffering on the people. We focus on this stuff. The average American does not except as an entertainment on TV. 49% of Americans have a literal fundamentalist evangelical view of reality right out of the bronze age. The Stock Market would crash, since it over reacts to everything. You know all this. My point is just that I cannot conceive of what government would get out of disclosure, unless they can leverage off of it to gain more control over the citizens, e.g., "In this crisis, we must allow the military increased freedom to deal with this threat. Your freedoms of movement and association must be temporarily suspended as we deal with this invasion".

Now, one more point. If this phenomena is MORE than just physical beings in flying ships, then how could the government tell us? What if these aliens can shapeshift, put thoughts into our minds, cause paranormal experiences to erupt around us, commune with the dead, and generally have the power to ignore time/space laws? How could the government ever share that with a populus that is easily spooked (no pun intended)?

I just do not see why there would be a disclosure just because certain individuals within ufology are using it as a fund raising movement right now.

 

[Trajanus]

Why would the government ever disclose? What would be in it for them?

Maybe, at some future date, to induce the public to support a lot more funding for NASA and research.

Even the most nuts & bolts explanation (humanoid beings from another hum drum planet and had their own industrial age and seem to mirror us in many respects) would cause tremendous pain and suffering on the people. We focus on this stuff. The average American does not except as an entertainment on TV.

It's my understanding that polls in the past few decades have shown an increased willingness to accept ETs.

49% of Americans have a literal fundamentalist evangelical view of reality right out of the bronze age. The Stock Market would crash, since it over reacts to everything.

As I said before, the public may not be fully ready now. But IMO it's reasonable to assume they will be at some future date, maybe around mid or late century.

My point is just that I cannot conceive of what government would get out of disclosure, unless they can leverage off of it to gain more control over the citizens, e.g., "In this crisis, we must allow the military increased freedom to deal with this threat. Your freedoms of movement and association must be temporarily suspended as we deal with this invasion".

Possible but I hardly view it as likely, especially not in the near future. As I see it, there are two major problems. First, no use gaining greater control over the citizenry if too many of them are going bonkers on account of insufficient readiness. Second, for anyone to aspire to great power, he'd have to be against the basic democratic system. Yet current government is full of those who prospered under it. Ergo, it's unlikely those currently in power, imbued with present values, would do something to trash the fundamental system, even if that were the only issue.

Now, one more point. If this phenomena is MORE than just physical beings in flying ships, then how could the government tell us? What if these aliens can shapeshift, put thoughts into our minds, cause paranormal experiences to erupt around us, commune with the dead, and generally have the power to ignore time/space laws? How could the government ever share that with a populus that is easily spooked (no pun intended)?

First disclosing the reality/presence of ET doesn't mean disclosing all his capabilities, and, assuming our progress can oneday duplicate theirs...

 

[mike]

I doubt the truth of this. Back then, any unusual flying object not ours would be assumed to be enemy, like the foo fighters were at first.

While it is a contentious claim we do know a few things as fact.

Churchill's Recently Discovered 'Aliens Essay' Shows Even He Struggled With The Fermi Paradox

Winston Churchill Essay Shows He Believed In Extraterrestrials, Despite His UFO Cover-Up

Certainly the basis for the claim is tenuous

Nick Pope, who used to investigate UFO sightings for the MoD, said: "The interesting thing is that most of the UFO files from that period have been destroyed.

"But what happened is that a scientist whose grandfather was one of his [Churchill's] bodyguards, said look, Churchill and Eisenhower got together to cover up this phenomenal UFO sighting, that was witnessed by an RAF crew on their way back from a bombing raid.

"The reason apparently was because Churchill believed it would cause mass panic and it would shatter people's religious views."

The Churchill centre posts this:

Finest Hour 115, Summer 2002 Datelines: London, October 21st- “What does all this stuff abut flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth? Let me have a report at your convenience.” This WSC to his advisers, who produced a six-page UFO report, hitherto denied by the Ministry of Defence but unearthed by UFO historians Andy Roberts and David Clarke. The “working party on flying saucers” was the idea of Sir Henry Tizard, WC’s trusted scientific adviser during the war. The report played down the phenomenon and insisted there was no threat to Britain. But a few months later an order went out expressly banning all RAF personnel from discussing sightings with anyone not from the military. -The Observer


Finest Hour 129, Winter 2005-06, Around & About, page 10: Beginning 1950, reports of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) proliferated in Britain. Even Lord Louis Mountbatten stated his belief that the Earth was being visited by aliens. Churchill demanded to know the truth about flying saucers, historians Andy Roberts and David Clarke revealed while researching a book on UFOs and the Cold War.

” Churchill minuted his advisers in 1952. “What can it mean? What is the truth?” Churchill was shown a report by Sir Henry Tizard, one of his most trusted scientific advisers during World War II and a key figure behind the development of radar. Tizard saw no threat from UFOs. All sightings, he reported, were explainable by natural events such as the weather or meteors, or were normal aircraft. But Britain followed the American lead in underplaying the sightings, and a few months later an order went out expressly banning all RAF personnel from discussing UFO reports with anyone not in the military. Roberts and Clarke believe that the UFO sightings were the product of “mass hysteria,” an urban myth strong enough to penetrate the highest echelons.

And while they are skeptical of the claim itself, it does seem that the report and orders were a fact:

In the early 1950s, the fever spread quickly from the United States to the United Kingdom, reaching even an aging Winston Churchill. “What does all this stuff about flying saucers amount to?” the prime minister asked his air force chief in a note in the summer of 1952. “What is the truth?”

Churchill was informed that the Air Ministry had in fact convened a top-secret Flying Saucer Working Party two years earlier, which concluded that all the reports amounted to natural phenomena imaginatively interpreted. That assurance was partly revised in September 1952, when a squad of Royal Air Force airmen in Yorkshire reported a strange white-silvery object tailing a Gloster Meteor fighter back to base after maneuvers, then suddenly shooting off to the west at “incredible speed.” The Air Ministry set up a detail in its intelligence branch to keep track of such reports in the future.


Read more at Department of Flying Saucers | Space | Air & Space Magazine

So while the claim he ordered a cover up is unsubstantiated, he did have an interest in them and did ask his advisors for information.

 

[mike]

Honestly, I don’t think human power structures would even have the language to disclose anything.

Can you elaborate on this?

It's like you can't even describe the experience properly. I don't know how to say it. Mike, any ideas?

I think there are two questions here, I'll speak to the fear of the experience first.
I thinks its as simple as hard wiring. As Humans we are hard wired to fear things we identify as dangerous. Experiments have show we are born with these fears we dont learn them.

Are We Born Fearing Spiders and Snakes?

So ExoXenophobia (see i've had to create a new word already) could be a variant of terrestrial phobias like Arachnophobia or Ophidiophobia.

We may simply be hard wired to react this way.

Imagine you woke up one night paralyzed and covered in big black hairy spiders from head to toe. Unable to move or speak most people would experience an internal scream like nothing they could have imagined.

On the language to disclose, keep in mind we have been truly technological for a couple of hundred years. 300 if we count newcomens atmospheric engine precursor to the steam engine used on boats and trains.

That has to be compared with the technology to get here and behave the way some of these alleged craft are observed to behave.
Then we have the occupants themselves, we have only just started our foray into Synthetic intelligence and Gene manipulation.

SETI has only recently taken the post biological hypothesis on board, 50 years ago any "occupant" would have been speculated on via the filter of biological existance, Just a strange critter but essentially a living critter just like us.

Mind uploading and Neuroprosthetics BCI, and mind to mind interfaces ( Its worth noting the spell checker doesn't like Neuroprosthetics suggesting the word i want is Neuroscientists)
A classic example of language playing catch up to technology.

In 2013 a report of research by Nicolelis and others was published which showed brain to brain communication between two rats using brain–computer interfaces. This result may demonstrate the feasibility of a biological computer consisting of a network of animal, or human, brains.[4][5][6]

On 3 September 2014, scientists reported that direct communication between human brains was possible over extended distances through Internet transmission of EEG signals.[105][106]

In March and in May 2014 a study conducted by Dipartimento di Psicologia Generale – Università di Padova, EVANLAB – Firenze, LiquidWeb s.r.l. company and Dipartimento di Ingegneria e Architettura – Università di Trieste, reports confirmatory results analyzing the EEG activity of two human partners spatially separated approximately 190 km apart when one member of the pair receives the stimulation and the second one is connected only mentally with the first.[107][108]

It really is only recently that we are starting to get the technology ourselves that might be at parity with theirs, and we may yet be a long way away before we have the language needed.

Its the difference between describing the same craft as a "chariot of the gods" and Hills theory

The only possibility fitting observations was a form of gravity field. This UFO field could be focused to provide a repelling force counter to the earth's gravity. A field with the same characteristics would neatly move molecules of air out of the way well before they encountered a moving UFO. It would protect any occupants from G forces, but would even leave a residual fraction of the G-forces to give them a 'feel' for their craft's maneuvers. Hill postulated a subatomic particle, the uon, as the quantum expression of the UFO field. This might or might not be the poorly understood graviton and anti-graviton postulated by physicists.

Hill compared his analysis to that of the atom envisioned by Ernest Rutherford in 1911. Rutherford, using Newtonian physics, was able to describe an atom consisting of protons and neutrons in a nucleus with electrons spinning in orbits around it. Later 20th Century Einsteinian and quantum mechanics would show Rutherford's model to be simplistic and the atomic reality to be much more complex. But the point was that Rutherford could make a correct first approximation of the atomic structure using the physics he knew. Similarly, Hill believed he could mathematically describe the UFO field without necessarily knowing the future physics that would provide the complete understanding (and allow earthlings to construct such a device).

Hill's analysis completely described the commonly-described characteristics of the UFO:

UFO's can only be propelled by an engine that produces a static field that repels all mass. This field follows the inverse-square law of gravity or photon fields, and is focused to provide propulsive force. Hill showed that using this field the amount of energy to move a UFO to any particular position above a gravitational source (such as the earth) is only equal to energy required to lift it to that height - a very small value.

This field has an electromagnetic component or expression in the range between x-rays and gamma rays. This explains the radiation effects described in many cases on those who get to close to hovering UFO's, while at the same time is consistent with the lack of residual radioactivity at UFO landing sites. It is also the precise energy wavelength that creates the glow which surrounds UFO's when in operation. This is a result of excitation of air molecules, and shifts from dull red through orange, yellow, and then to intense welding-arc white as the electromagnetic component shifts from soft x-rays up to the lower portion of the gamma-ray spectrum. The plasma generated by this wavelength of radiation is cold - consistent with the lack of intense heat reported in UFO close encounters.

UFO Engineering according to Hill

The devil is in the detail of the language.

And its why i agree with Thomas that scientific research into this aspect is the key to the answer.

 

[Constance]

So while the claim he ordered a cover up is unsubstantiated, he did have an interest in them and did ask his advisors for information.

I think the existence of a governmental cover-up was and is as obvious in the UK as in the US. I also think Churchill wanted further military investigations of the UAP, and that such investigations have continued in all the decades since in both countries while being denied by the governments of both countries. I also think that, within the growing complexity of governmental and military bureaucracy in both countries, proactive individuals in both arenas would have persisted on their own to seek answers and in some cases share their findings with the public.

 

[mike]

I think the existence of a governmental cover-up was and is as obvious in the UK as in the US. I also think Churchill wanted further military investigations of the UAP, and that such investigations have continued in all the decades since in both countries while being denied by the governments of both countries. I also think that, within the growing complexity of governmental and military bureaucracy in both countries, proactive individuals in both arenas would have persisted on their own to seek answers and in some cases share their findings with the public.

I agree, and while the only aspect we have for sure on Churchills alleged cover up was a letter written to the MOD by the grandson of the bodyguard asking for confirmation of the story

As part of an ongoing project to declassify government reports related to unidentified flying objects, the Ministry of Defense and The National Archives Wednesday released about 5,000 pages of correspondence between the public and British authorities on UFO's



One of the letters was from a man claiming his grandfather was present at a wartime meeting with Churchill and U.S. General Dwight D. Eisenhower.
The declassified letter from 1999 redacts the names of the sender and his grandfather, but says the two leaders were briefed on a UFO incident reported by a Royal Air Force (RAF) bomber crew.

While returning to Britain from a mission in Germany, the crew was reportedly approached by a metallic UFO on the English coast. The crew even took photographs of the UFO, the letter said.

The writer said that the UFO appeared to "hover noiselelessly" and then suddenly disappeared.
UFO Report Would Create 'Mass Panic,' Churchill Allegedly Said
Upon hearing the story, Churchill allegedly ordered that it be kept secret for 50 years or more.

"This event should be immediately classified since it would create mass panic amongst the general population and destroy one's faith in the Church," the letter claims he said.

The writer asked the Ministry of Defense if it could confirm the incident and if the event was still classified.

Did Winston Churchill Order a UFO Cover-Up?

Its pretty much hearsay as evidence goes to the claim he ordered a coverup.

But he did have a documented interest in UFO's and he did ask the military for a report on "flying saucers".

We each have to draw our own conclusions. I thinks its possible and indeed likely and for reasons that have been outlined before in this genre.

The US and Britain had just fought a nasty war that at plenty of times in its duration didn't look like they would win it.
Their people had suffered privation, loss and hardship. And the military governments were making political capital over the fact that. "We won, we protected you from the Nazi menace."

UFO's represented a potential unknown and a potential threat that they knew they were unable to deal with.

The US military in particular was enjoying its time in the limelight as the technological masters of the world, top dogs, kings of the hill.

To admit they were sharing the sky's with unknown aircraft that outclassed theirs in orders of magnitude just wasn't something they wanted to do.

 

[mike]

This was the mindset of the day.

We deal now, not with things of this world alone, but with the illimitable distances and as yet unfathomed mysteries of the universe. We are reaching out for a new and boundless frontier. We speak in strange terms of harnessing the cosmic energy, of making winds and tides work for us, of creating unheard of synthetic materials to supplement or even replace our old standard basics; to purify sea water for our drink; of mining ocean floors for new fields of wealth and food; of disease preventatives to expand life into the hundred of years; of controlling the weather for a more equitable distribution of heat and cold, of rain and shine; of spaceships to the moon; of the primary target in war, no longer limited to the armed forces of an enemy, but instead to include his civil populations; of ultimate conflict between a united human race and the sinister forces of some other planetary galaxy; of such dreams and fantasies as to make life the most exciting of all times.


And through all this welter of change and development your mission remains fixed, determined, inviolable. It is to win our wars. Everything else in your professional career is but corollary to this vital dedication. All other public purposes, all other public projects, all other public needs, great or small, will find others for their accomplishment; but you are the ones who are trained to fight.

General MacArthur's Thayer Award Speech -- Duty, Honor, Country (1962)

 

[Trajanus]

"But what happened is that a scientist whose grandfather was one of his [Churchill's] bodyguards, said look, Churchill and Eisenhower got together to cover up this phenomenal UFO sighting, that was witnessed by an RAF crew on their way back from a bombing raid.

"The reason apparently was because Churchill believed it would cause mass panic and it would shatter people's religious views."

I doubt a mere UFO sighting would've been taken as proof of ET so definitive as to make Churchill say and do what he allegedly did. So what if the crew saw an extraordinary flying craft. How can they be sure it wasn't nazi, or some prank? I can understand an order to cover up a strange sighting based on fear that it might lead to rumors of a German superweapon. But a mere SIGHTING would not IMO be sufficient grounds to conclude, definitively, there were ET visitors.

Finest Hour

115, Summer 2002 Datelines: London, October 21st- “What does all this stuff abut flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?

If he was already convinced ET was here in WWII--so convinced he felt he had to order a coverup--why would he be asking that in '52?

 

[mike]

If he was already convinced ET was here in WWII--so convinced he felt he had to order a coverup--why would he be asking that in '52?

I don't find that illogical myself, mileage will vary.

But to me its entirely consistent that someone who is aware something is happening in WWII would still be looking for answers in 52.

And his essay on ET's seems to indicate he suspected that's what they were, but didn't know for sure.

Its consistent with the adage that permeates the UFO genre "I know what i saw", which more correctly should be phrased "i know what i saw, but i don't know what , what i saw was"
Its true both sides thought the Foo Fighters belonged to the other side

The first sightings occurred in November 1944, when pilots flying over Western Europe by night reported seeing fast-moving round glowing objects following their aircraft. The objects were variously described as fiery, and glowing red, white, or orange. Some pilots described them as resembling Christmas-tree lights and reported that they seemed to toy with the aircraft, making wild turns before simply vanishing. Pilots and aircrew reported that the objects flew formation with their aircraft and behaved as if they were under intelligent control, but never displayed hostile behavior. However, they could not be outmaneuvered or shot down. The phenomenon was so widespread that the lights earned a name – in the European Theater of Operations they were often called "Kraut fireballs", but for the most part called "foo-fighters". The military took the sightings seriously, suspecting that the mysterious sightings might be secret German weapons, but further investigation revealed that German and Japanese pilots had reported similar sightings.

We wont ever know if the allegation he ordered a cover up is true unless the MOD "finds" the destroyed files. What is interesting is that they replied to the letter with we cant confirm (or deny) your information because we destroyed the files. and yet they kept just about everything else as the following states

This is a brief guide to researching British government and military records of the Second World War. Second World War records are wide-ranging and are kept in a variety of archives.
Second World War - The National Archives

That in and of itself is suspicious imo.

The Nazi aspect has merit too, and its there we wormhole into the whole antarctic bases Nazi bell stuff.

Its a fascinating mystery, we can only hope that one day it goes from the mystery books section, to the history books section of the library.

I'd love to know the truth, as im sure we all would.

 

[Trajanus]

But to me its entirely consistent that someone who is aware something is happening in WWII would still be looking for answers in 52.

In WWII he was allegedly so sure ET was here he ordered a coverup, yet in 1952 he was asking "What does all this stuff about flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?" Based on the coverup story he "already knew" what it "amounted to" and what it could mean-problems for religion. It just doesn't make sense that he'd be clueless in '52 after being sure a decade earlier.

And his essay on ET's seems to indicate he suspected that's what they were, but didn't know for sure.

In more recent times there were many people, notably Sagan, who were very interested in the possibility of ET but dismissive of UFO reports and even hostile toward them.