Refuting the ETH: Angels/Aliens/Archetypes

[Kieran]

Broadly human-looking but obviously different e.g. grays, suggestive of convergent evolution elsewhere.



I very much doubt that any beings or any civilization which originated on the surface could survive underground. How do crops grow without photosynthesis? And how odd that an underground or undersea community could be so adept at building aerial craft. IMO it's just not plausible.




Better than the impossibility of living below.




If that were true, there should be evidence of previous ET surface habitation. And what specific disaster would've driven them underground? At various times, hominids and humans have experienced eruptions, impacts etc, but stayed on the surface--there's no choice. We aren't worms.





Sure they are here, but not on a continuing basis. They appear and then go away, in advanced flying craft.



But there's little evidence of a human element. For the most pat, there's a humanoid one.

That is your opinion friend they could not, just because we do not, does not mean it is impossible. They have craft which can fly in our skies, once you have craft like this, you can gather food. There is plenty of food up above and in the seas. They do not need to grow anything below.I not suggesting they are human like us, but they are pretty similar to us, do you not think. Do not be fooled by Craft... this to me just suggestions a higher technology.... not space travelers from above.

What evidence would you expect... A train... house... car.... Say if we had an Asteroid hit tomorrow or a nuclear war tomorrow, very little would remain of us as a society or anything really... a million years from a disaster nothing would remain.I not saying that is the answer. It just a theory.

I am open to all theories... you are firmly sticking to the one theory you have. Which is wrong, because you seem to have the answers that they are space travelers. Please expand your thinking more beyond your human expectations of what it is.

 

[Trajanus]

That is your opinion friend they could not, just because we do not, does not mean it is impossible. They have craft which can fly in our skies, once you have craft like this, you can gather food. There is plenty of food up above

Few UFOs have been seen gathering food. And given their technical superiority, there's no need to hide underground; they would take over on the surface. Even if another disaster is possible, living underground should only be a last resort.

What evidence would you expect... A train... house... car.... Say if we had an Asteroid hit tomorrow or a nuclear war tomorrow, very little would remain of us as a society or anything really... a million years from a disaster nothing would remain

Plenty of us would remain. There are vast amounts of modern human artifacts buried under sediments or in dumps.

I am open to all theories... you are firmly sticking to the one theory you have. Which is wrong, because you seem to have the answers that they are space travelers.

I can't prove it but it's clearly most parsimonious. Far more so than invoking underground hideouts for an unknown race of which we have no paleontological or archeological evidence whatever. Or some mysterious "consciousness' or "trickster."

 

[Schuyler]

Trajanus,
You have hijacked this thread to the point that we can't even talk about something other than the ETH without you butting in to defend your favorite narrow-minded theory. Rather than be about 'Angels/Aliens/Archetypes' this thread has become all about you.

I suggest it be closed or abandoned.

 

[conor]

Trajanus,
You have hijacked this thread to the point that we can't even talk about something other than the ETH without you butting in to defend your favorite narrow-minded theory. Rather than be about 'Angels/Aliens/Archetypes' this thread has become all about you.

I suggest it be closed or abandoned.

We have a true believer in our midsts!

 

[Trajanus]

I suggest it be closed or abandoned.

Fine, just don't post.

 

[TerraX]

I suggest it be closed or abandoned.

Oh, come on Schuyler. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and you don't have to respond to posts not to your liking. Waying this against that also might lead to further insight.

Personally, I don't bet all my chips on one particular hypothesis. I find the ETH the slight favorite but that doesn't mean that with other cards on the table it would still be a winner. Seeing other hands evaluates your own gameplan.

I was listening to a Mac Tonnies interview on MikeC's blog
hidden experience: Mac Tonnies shares a remarkable set of ideas
and one thing struck me about the Trickster or the Cryptoterrestrials, as Mac Tonnies put it. The theory itself evolved over time within ufology. It is a culmination of certain elements found in UFO-lore. Those elements were pretty much there to begin with. So in that regard I don't find the Trickster theory that outlandish. It is another theory next to the ETH, extra dimensional visitors, time travellers, inner Earth beings, you name it.

I would very much like to see arguments favoring the Trickster hypothesis. Not to deliberately poke holes in it, but to see how it could possibly fit in the bigger picture.

 

[Kieran]

Few UFOs have been seen gathering food. And given their technical superiority, there's no need to hide underground; they would take over on the surface. Even if another disaster is possible, living underground should only be a last resort.



Plenty of us would remain. There are vast amounts of modern human artifacts buried under sediments or in dumps.



I can't prove it but it's clearly most parsimonious. Far more so than invoking underground hideouts for an unknown race of which we have no paleontological or archeological evidence whatever. Or some mysterious "consciousness' or "trickster."

Trajanus, it only a theory, it not a theory that i believe in personally, but we still have to discuss it openly, even if it does not seem logical or plausible. Can we prove the UFO occupants have the need to eat or have the ability to eat, we assume they might, but at the end of the day 'we are only guessing. You are making that claim just based on what we know in UFO lore... they land, leave physical traces, Usually the landings happen in remote areas, fields, forests a few examples. What are they doing.. Are they landing and only taking soil samples or are they gathering supplies such as food or materials? It seems silly to me, they land, take soil samples, and leave.

As for their technical superiority and your argument... why do they need to hide underground or in the seas. The craft suggests a Airborne superiority only, every craft has to land eventually, unless you believe the occupants live in the craft and are in the in the sky at all times. There technology enables them to do that. Does not seem real to me, if that is the truth, because more people would be be seeing UFOs everyday and more frequent. So we have to presume, they are coming from somewhere else, so that leads us into the theories of ETH and other scenarios.

As for the craft, all we see is the craft in our skies and to claim they are from outer space.. is a good theory, but what do we know? seriously be honest... they are seen in our skies. Now we have to ask is their possibility they are from our planet and there is indeed some unknown entities living on the planet longer than us. You said, they would take over the planet if that was true... your argument is confusing, if you believe they are space travelers, the same argument would be the same for space travelers..

why have these space travelers not taken over the planet? since your argument was they are far superior in craft than us. To me your suggestions suggest hostility, just because they have such superiority in craft, does not mean, they would be hostile or have the ability to be hostile.... There could be a good reason for remaining hidden, we are not that friendly to difference in the first place... so that could be reason and i am only guessing really.


It seems silly to me these craft travel back and forward to their home planet everyday. It possible of course...Humans get in a car, not everyday and travel to certain places to visit... maybe they come and go and others arrive. They are on vacation, we travel by car around and by plane and train... maybe they travel in space.. Seems silly really. We can not discount they are travelers similar to our Astronauts, who have agenda, given by their society to look for other life and materials. You can discount that has possibility and your right on with your theory there.

Why no Archeological evidence.... that is of course if they left such evidence behind or the evidence was ever above ground, or that everything was destroyed above ground and there is nothing left, or simply such evidence has not been discovered by anyone. Atlantis has a myth... that this society and the land fell into the sea..... it goes with the whole flood myth,, if you believe it.

 

[Trajanus]

Trajanus, it only a theory, it not a theory that i believe in personally, but we still have to discuss it openly, even if it does not seem logical or plausible.

I doubt most scientists would even consider something like that.

You are making that claim just based on what we know in UFO lore... they land, leave physical traces, Usually the landings happen in remote areas, fields, forests a few examples. What are they doing.. Are they landing and only taking soil samples or are they gathering supplies such as food or materials? It seems silly to me, they land, take soil samples, and leave.

Our astronauts did it, several times.

Now we have to ask is their possibility they are from our planet and there is indeed some unknown entities living on the planet longer than us. You said, they would take over the planet if that was true... your argument is confusing, if you believe they are space travelers, the same argument would be the same for space travelers..

But that's different. An ET civilization wouldn't compete with us for living space and resources, as they already have a world, or more than one. There wouldn't be any inevitable clash or pressing need to takeover. But another indigenous earthly race would take over if it could. Look at human history. Did our species coexist indefinitely with the neanderthals in the same regions of the earth? No way, and it didn't take much technical ability or superiority to blow the neanderthals away completely. Same happened to the Indians etc.

To me your suggestions suggest hostility, just because they have such superiority in craft, does not mean, they would be hostile or have the ability to be hostile....

Based on numerous episodes, the actual phenomenon can be quite hostile at times. They clearly have the capability, but so far, hostile action has been limited.

There could be a good reason for remaining hidden, we are not that friendly to difference in the first place... so that could be reason and i am only guessing really.

No need to stay hidden if they're technically more capable.

It seems silly to me these craft travel back and forward to their home planet everyday

We don't know how hard or easy it might be. Even assuming it isn't quick or easy, ETs may have bases on earth. I have no problem with the idea that the phenomenon may lurk below the surface or under the sea. I just don't believe it is indigenous to earth.

Why no Archeological evidence.... that is of course if they left such evidence behind or the evidence was ever above ground or that everything was destroyed above ground and there is nothing left, or simply such evidence has not been discovered by anyone.

Again if you're talking about some indigenous earthly race, there definitely should be some evidence of it. Intelligent beings and civilizations don't appear overnight. Hominids slowly evolved for millions of years before modern humans appeared. Where is the fossil evidence for an evolutionary trend toward high intelligence in some other earthly species? Or the artifacts of its cultural evolution?

 

[Kieran]

I doubt most scientists would even consider something like that.



Our astronauts did it, several times.



But that's different. An ET civilization wouldn't compete with us for living space and resources, as they already have a world, or more than one. There wouldn't be any inevitable clash or pressing need to takeover. But another indigenous earthly race would take over if it could. Look at human history. Did our species coexist indefinitely with the neanderthals in the same regions of the earth? No way, and it didn't take much technical ability or superiority to blow the neanderthals away completely. Same happened to the Indians etc.



Based on numerous episodes, the actual phenomenon can be quite hostile at times. They clearly have the capability, but so far, hostile action has been limited.



No need to stay hidden if they're technically more capable.




We don't know how hard or easy it might be. Even assuming it isn't quick or easy, ETs may have bases on earth. I have no problem with the idea that the phenomenon may lurk below the surface or under the sea. I just don't believe it is indigenous to earth.



Again if you're talking about some indigenous earthly race, there definitely should be some evidence of it. Intelligent beings and civilizations don't appear overnight. Hominids slowly evolved for millions of years before modern humans appeared. Where is the fossil evidence for an evolutionary trend toward high intelligence in some other earthly species? Or the artifacts of its cultural evolution?

As to scientists for the most part do not even except this topic as real. So to be honest, i give little or no attention to what they say. For them to discuss theories to origins is not likely to happen or take place, they can not even look at the evidence for UFOs and see some truth there, scientists are blind to what does not suit their reality.

Well comparing the Moon and Mars to the Earth is a silly argument.What else is on the moon but rocks or soil samples? Seriously, your argument is a bit silly when you compare this planet to these planets in terms of what this planet has going for it.

Never said they would compete for living space. We have billions of people living in this world, so naturally with a vast population, we would take up mass areas of living space. We have your theory, it is a valid theory at this stage and i have no serious argument against it, but maybe a certain percentage of the UFO occupants who are indigenous to this Earth are smaller in number a few hundred, few thousand, and they are more advanced in technology no doubt. That does not mean they are more intelligent in thinking than us, their technology is giving us that impression. If our number is superior in numbers too them. They might have a fear there of exposing themselves to the human race openly and without question?

I kind of see where you get that impression, since they have such technology they would not compete with us for living space,? .. the stories of UFOs shutting down power... is indeed frightening, but it does show they have the ability to wipe us out, unless they use this ability to shut things down and use this ability to somehow override our technology and turn human made weapons back on us. They could maybe? yet has not happened, if they did not like us been the sole occupants above, they would have used this ability already to get rid of us and the same goes for ETH space travelers.

It depends what you mean by hostile... Are they killing people... Yes there does seem to be abductions... Where human beings are taken and some type of experiment is happening. This is against what we believe is right based on our human moral standards... However there does seem to be a reason for these abductions, and we are so far unclear to what is behind this agenda, is it for good reasons or as humans are we guinea pigs for some bizarre unknown program.

At least you accept the possibility that we might have UFO occupants living on the planet, you disagree to the origins. But even they are not from this planet... you have overlooked, how long they are here and when did they arrive. Now if they are here since before us and have never left. They are part of this planets history... do you not think?

 

[Trajanus]

As to scientists for the most part do not even except this topic as real. So to be honest, i give little or no attention to what they say. For them to discuss theories to origins is not likely to happen or take place, they can not even look at the evidence for UFOs and see some truth there, scientists are blind to what does not suit their reality.

Well scientific standards of proof are high, and it's not their fault that the best evidence--both photographic and physical--often gets confiscated.

Well comparing the Moon and Mars to the Earth is a silly argument.What else is on the moon but rocks or soil samples? Seriously, your argument is a bit silly when you compare this planet to these planets in terms of what this planet has going for it.

Sure, ETs have been seen collecting biological specimens here, which an astronaut can't do on the moon. But my point was that since our own astronauts have been engaged in collecting things for study, ET collecting may be a genuine activity.

Never said they would compete for living space. We have billions of people living in this world, so naturally with a vast population, we would take up mass areas of living space. We have your theory, it is a valid theory at this stage and i have no serious argument against it, but maybe a certain percentage of the UFO occupants who are indigenous to this Earth are smaller in number a few hundred, few thousand, and they are more advanced in technology no doubt. That does not mean they are more intelligent in thinking than us, their technology is giving us that impression. If our number is superior in numbers too them. They might have a fear there of exposing themselves to the human race openly and without question?

But if one can assume a more advanced race or civilization was here first, they could've preempted us or cleaned us out before we proliferated.

I kind of see where you get that impression, since they have such technology they would not compete with us for living space,? .. the stories of UFOs shutting down power... is indeed frightening, but it does show they have the ability to wipe us out, unless they use this ability to shut things down and use this ability to somehow override our technology and turn human made weapons back on us. They could maybe? yet has not happened, if they did not like us been the sole occupants above, they would have used this ability already to get rid of us and the same goes for ETH space travelers.

Again, ETs are different. Since they presumably already have a home planet--and maybe a bunch of terraformed/colonized ones too--they don't have the same pressing need to compete with us or wipe us out as a different indigenous race would. The point is that an indigenous, technically superior race would've long cleaned us out just as we did to the neanderthals. Since we shared the same planet and regions, competition and conflict were inevitable and the inferior neanderthals lost and disappeared.

At least you accept the possibility that we might have UFO occupants living on the planet, you disagree to the origins. But even they are not from this planet... you have overlooked, how long they are here and when did they arrive. Now if they are here since before us and have never left. They are part of this planets history... do you not think?

Sure, but there's still at least one important difference. Not being indigenous to Earth, ETs wouldn't have a fossil record leading to high intelligence that predates ours. Such a record would be expected in the case of an indigenous race. It doesn't exist; ergo, the indigenous UFO notion doesn't appear credible.

 

[friz]

I really enjoyed the McKenna video.
I have had problems with his theories over the years, mainly because I find some things he says contradictory. BUT I love him because he is so unique and really expanded the views of the likes of Vallee and so on.

I think it is VERY important to bring together the fields of psychedelics and UFO phenomena. A post a bit further above very closed-mindedly said that was crap and is getting back to tribalism and 'magical thinking'...?

Hmmm, well if that mindset feels like that why even come to this thread, because that is McKenna's main message? Stick to your 'nuts and bolts'

So why do I think it is so important? because even in mainstream science that may not, openly at least, even speak of psychedelic things, there is this emerging need to explore what consciousness is! And essentially psychedelics are the tools par excellence for exploring consciousness

UFOs and 'Star People' have been anciently connected with ancient indigenous cultures and civilizations so there maybe are clues for us modern explorers!!

There is one guy I would love to introduce you to who carries on the unique dynamic exploritative spirit of Terrence. His name is Ananda Bosman and you can find his video here. It is long, and worth watching, but prepared to be mindblown. It was finding this several weeks ago which turned me back on, in a deep way, to UFO research:
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He seems to suggest that developments in Hadronic mechanics is the revolutionary development which by-passes QM in its understanding of 'magical' biology. And he also says how odd, but amusing, that when you go to many members in the UFO community they wont touch the psychedelic subject because it's too far out, and the same goes for much of the psychedelic community regarding UFOs, but concludes that it however is essential. I agree.

This is not some kind of oppressive recommendation that you HAVE to take psychedelics though, or that if you haven't you not part of the club. It is more that psychedelic experience is co-continuous with other forms of non-ordinary experience like, for example, Near Death Experience, Out of the Body Experience, paranormal experience, Exceptional Experience, and of course so-called ordinary experience which, when really understood is far from ordinary and is changing all the time! It is a continnuum, and UFO and abduction and contact experiences are all part of this continuum.

Getting back to McKenna, an example of a contradiction. He, on one hand seems to suggest that the 'haunted skies' are the result of a psychopathy, because of the suppression of the collective Imagination, but later claims that our destiny is away from Earth to give her a break. So errrm HOW do we get away without UFOs?

Not that I want to get away. I love earth and am more pagan than UFonaut, but really the 'universe' was never apart from nature. You cant have nature without universe and vice versa.

 

[Kieran]

Well scientific standards of proof are high, and it's not their fault that the best evidence--both photographic and physical--often gets confiscated.



Sure, ETs have been seen collecting biological specimens here, which an astronaut can't do on the moon. But my point was that since our own astronauts have been engaged in collecting things for study, ET collecting may be a genuine activity.



But if one can assume a more advanced race or civilization was here first, they could've preempted us or cleaned us out before we proliferated.



Again, ETs are different. Since they presumably already have a home planet--and maybe a bunch of terraformed/colonized ones too--they don't have the same pressing need to compete with us or wipe us out as a different indigenous race would. The point is that an indigenous, technically superior race would've long cleaned us out just as we did to the neanderthals. Since we shared the same planet and regions, competition and conflict were inevitable and the inferior neanderthals lost and disappeared.




Sure, but there's still at least one important difference. Not being indigenous to Earth, ETs wouldn't have a fossil record leading to high intelligence that predates ours. Such a record would be expected in the case of an indigenous race. It doesn't exist; ergo, the indigenous UFO notion doesn't appear credible.

Well you right but wrong at the same time. Yes evidence is probably taken away by someone but there is plenty of evidence out there to take the subject seriously.

i agree with you it on the second part, but the argument was not about that in the first place.

You are of the believe, if they where from this planet, they would have take us over by now... why...Take a step back please they could be from anywhere and it pretty obvious the intentions of this beings is far from aggressive as far as a take over of a planet goes. It seems pretty obvious to me they have been on this planet longer than a week, a month, years or even a century. Your theory is just because they are technology superior in craft, that this somehow means a species entirely different to us, would not share the planet with us in anyway, they would be hostile. This is your human belief not forget, and so therefore this is what you think would happen.

That is so silly.. how do you know.. how species entirely different would react to us in the past.We can not dismiss the theory that this species gave us a helping hand in our evolution in the past. Now that theory opens a whole different can of worms.. which has many problems.

As for the fossil record.. we are thinking of it in human terms... The oldest Fossils are often destroyed by the planets crust( subducted and recycled) and for death we bury our dead in the ground. How do a species entirely different to us die? if they are here since before us or sometime in the past and are still here.. do they follow our principles of burying our dead or is death even something they go through like us, so if the second part is true.. there would be no fossil record left. The beings of course seem to have biology, a body, but do they leave traces like us when they die( a skeleton) that is question we do not know and have any answers to.

I am not against the theory of ETH, it is as good as the other theories out there. You are so sure it is ETH... Give me your evidence? your indeed a true believer and not willing to discuss anything else.It not wrong i guess, maybe what you are observing points you in that direction. The only problem i have is your stance, you seem too sure that all other theories are not valid because it does not suit your view.

 

[conor]

Fine, just don't post.

In fairness, the thread is called "Refuting the ETH". All criticism is welcome. But if you wish to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how you think that the ETH is the way to go, well then go start up that thread.

 

[Jonah]

Main Entry: re·fute <input onclick="return au('refute01', 'refute');" class="au" title="Listen to the pronunciation of refute" type="button">
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈfyüt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·fut·ed; re·fut·ing
Etymology: Latin refutare to check, suppress, refute
Date: 1545
<!--INFOLINKS_ON--> 1 : to prove wrong by argument or evidence : show to be false or erroneous
2 : to deny the truth or accuracy of <refuted the allegations>

refute - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Maybe try renaming the thread. If your going to attempt either #1 or #2 and expect no rebuttal, I'm not sure what the point might be.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger. "~ Friedrich Nietzsche

The exception might be "fear".

~J

 

[conor]

Main Entry: re·fute <INPUT class=au title="Listen to the pronunciation of refute" onclick="return au('refute01', 'refute');" type=button>
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈfyüt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·fut·ed; re·fut·ing
Etymology: Latin refutare to check, suppress, refute
Date: 1545
<!--INFOLINKS_ON-->1 : to prove wrong by argument or evidence : show to be false or erroneous
2 : to deny the truth or accuracy of <refuted the allegations>

refute - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Maybe try renaming the thread. If your going to attempt either #1 or #2 and expect no rebuttal, I'm not sure what the point might be.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger. "~ Friedrich Nietzsche

The exception might be "fear".

~J

There's sane debate, which I think was being had half way through this thread, and then there's just repeating your point lots and lots of times every time someone posts something which says something like "this is one reason I am sceptical of the ETH" or "this is a possible alternative theory". And then there are people who supported the ETH. And they were taken to task. But Trajanus just shouts people down with the fervour of religious belief. He claims to use logic, but he ignores any contrary logic, and uses some very dodgy points to make his argument. Ie, tp paraphrase, evolution may came up with the basic shape of a homunoid on other planets, or that we all see aliens, so that's what they are. Then he accepts that they may not be doing exactly what they seem to be doing. In other words, the phenonemon is way more complex. But it STILL has to be aliens. But does not that fact call that cherished belief into question? Be reasonable Trajanus. Must people are not completely turning away from the ETH. What they are saying is that the complexity of the phenonemon perhaps means that other lines of enquiry should be examined.

Every post that someone makes just has another post by Trajanus afterwards repeating the same points over and over. I'm just sick of the thread - there's no actual discussion going on, just a shouting contest.

 

[Trajanus]

You are of the believe, if they where from this planet, they would have take us over by now... why...Take a step back please they could be from anywhere and it pretty obvious the intentions of this beings is far from aggressive as far as a take over of a planet goes. It seems pretty obvious to me they have been on this planet longer than a week, a month, years or even a century. Your theory is just because they are technology superior in craft, that this somehow means a species entirely different to us, would not share the planet with us in anyway, they would be hostile.

I doubt they'd be superior in craft if they weren't generally far ahead, and the phenomenon has displayed advanced technology other than craft. The history of past interactions between different intelligent species shows that they didn't coexist; even a slight technical edge held by one species doomed its competitor. Homo erectus outcompeted Australopithecus and drove it to extinction, just as our species did to neanderthal man. That's why I don't think the phenomenon is indigenous--we probably wouldn't be here. But an ET race would already have a home; the phenomenon seems in part just a scientific expedition.

how species entirely different would react to us in the past.We can not dismiss the theory that this species gave us a helping hand in our evolution in the past. Now that theory opens a whole different can of worms.. which has many problems.

I'll say. There's no evidence hat a different intelligent species predated our own on this planet, let alone helped us evolve. All indications are we evolved naturally.

As for the fossil record.. we are thinking of it in human terms... The oldest Fossils are often destroyed by the planets crust( subducted and recycled) and for death we bury our dead in the ground. How do a species entirely different to us die? if they are here since before us or sometime in the past and are still here.. do they follow our principles of burying our dead or is death even something they go through like us, so if the second part is true.. there would be no fossil record left. The beings of course seem to have biology, a body, but do they leave traces like us when they die( a skeleton) that is question we do not know and have any answers to.

Fossils of all kinds, from all ages, have been preserved by sedimentation. Even early bacteria are known to us from stromatolites. Death is universal among earthly life forms.

I am not against the theory of ETH, it is as good as the other theories out there. You are so sure it is ETH... Give me your evidence? your indeed a true believer and not willing to discuss anything else.It not wrong i guess, maybe what you are observing points you in that direction. The only problem i have is your stance, you seem too sure that all other theories are not valid because it does not suit your view.

They just don't seem plausible. I can't prove the ETH but it's the most parsimonious view.

 

[Trajanus]

But Trajanus just shouts people down with the fervour of religious belief.

Come on, my posting has been perfectly civil.

Then he accepts that they may not be doing exactly what they seem to be doing. In other words, the phenonemon is way more complex. But it STILL has to be aliens. But does not that fact call that cherished belief into question?

Not necessarily since aliens can be deceptive.

Be reasonable Trajanus. Must people are not completely turning away from the ETH. What they are saying is that the complexity of the phenonemon perhaps means that other lines of enquiry should be examined.

And they have been. But they have even worse problems than the ETH.

I'm just sick of the thread - there's no actual discussion going on, just a shouting contest.

Hey if you aren't interested you don't have to post here.

 

[Kieran]

It seems obvious to me that the thread has run it's course. The thread was to discuss alternatives to ETH, and nobody has been posting for a while to this thread.Trajanus has made good points in my view, but this thread has developed an anger and frustration in some people and i can see why. So therefore this is my last post to this thread.

 

[friz]

well my contribution, and my first post, has been totally ignored.

I am not impressed

 

[Trajanus]

It seems obvious to me that the thread has run it's course. The thread was to discuss alternatives to ETH, and nobody has been posting for a while to this thread.Trajanus has made good points in my view, but this thread has developed an anger and frustration in some people and i can see why. So therefore this is my last post to this thread.

OK I understand. Nice talking to you.