Remembrance Day 2013

[Han]

Dear Charlie, I don't think we will ever agree on this issue, but I would like to say that after the tragedy of WWI, most people were so appalled by the scale of destruction and slaughter that took place, that they would do anything to avoid war and keep the peace, for example Great Britain had the ten year rule, which resulted in the rearmament of Germany, and ultimately WWII which had an even greater human cost.

I want to clarify that I am not saying war is good, or even glorious, it is however in my opinion sometimes the only way to safeguard peace.

 

[Burnt State]

Thanking a vet for fighting in some banker's war is like thanking a mark for being swindled by a con artist. Soldiers deserve compassion, understanding, and assistance, not glorification of the fact that they were hood-winked. That's grotesque.

i think it's a lot more complicated than that binary of who owns/profits from war vs. indivdual reasons for going to, and ulimately dying in war. The choice to be willing to sacrifice everything is an individual one and is an entirely separate event from the evil you are talking about. While wars are profiteering machines there are a lot of other narratives that are running simultaneously.

They include saving people's lives, rescuing others from real tyranny, stoping despots, dictators and ending genocide. That's important stuff. And as someone who had family members that fought and suffered on both sides of WWII i'm in a pretty clear position to recognize that in life during wartime you have limited choices of what will happen to you or what you can choose. War is hell. It's true.

Thanking a vet is about responding to their narrative. I've interviewed a lot of vets, especially some of the last of the WWI vets at my school and their stories brought tears to my eyes. What they lived through was real, a real bloody, terrifying, heart wrenching set of experiences that have altered our histories and changed their lives irrevocably. What's not to thank? What's not to admire? These individuals did things that probably the majority of us on this forum simply do not have the capacity to do, nor could do. That's how i see it.

Sometimes our political perspectives can distort all the other lived realities taking place. For example, some people believe in the idea of a police state. If i lived in America i would just be thankful to have police in my state. You have to acknowledge all perspectives. Thanking vets is just a civil and good thing to do. There's absolutely no way I'm contradicting their story of what happened to them or why they were there.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Please don't use this thread to bag War Veterans and their families if want to do that get own fucking thread!! Respect the dead. Also the wounded who are physical and mentally suffering years after the wars. Agree with Don comments and don;t be disrespectful on this thread to armed forces today who in the end stand on the line in order to protect you and your family.

 

[Burnt State]

and one other things while we're on the topic of why people fight in wars. In my conversations with youth who choose policing and armed forces as their professions i tend to spend a lot more time talking to them than others about their choices, their recognition of what it means when you sign up for service and exactly why they want to join. Many of them have been cadets, who feel that the idea of protecting others and/or bringing calm to violent spaces is worth the ultimate sacrifice. These are very unique kids, just as all kids can be seen as unique in their respective choices that they make. The kids who want to be doctors or go into business or join the armed services all have their own special makeup. They make these choices because of what they believe in is right, good and what should be done. And so they do. They are aware of the propaganda about the police, about war and they see that option as the best way to help their own sense of personal expression. It's certainly a much different choice than what it meant to join Roman Legions, or early Navy Fleets or to sign up for World War I. But what i do know is that we have always had such people who are willing to stand in front of someone else's weapons. These are conscientious kids; that's what i know about who are the people that think about defending nations, and defending ideals and values. It's heady stuff really.

 

[Charlie Prime]

...it is however in my opinion sometimes the only way to safeguard peace.

How many of the two hundred million human beings slaughtered by governments during the last 100 years do you estimate died to safeguard peace?

 

[Charlie Prime]

They include saving people's lives, rescuing others from real tyranny, stoping despots, dictators and ending genocide.

You ignore the root reason for the problem and skip ahead to lamenting the effects.

Who financed the despots' rise to power?

Who put the people in danger?

Who benefited most from the lands and wealth stolen during genocides?

 

[Randall]

Please don't use this thread to bag War Veterans and their families if want to do that get own fucking thread!! Respect the dead. Also the wounded who are physical and mentally suffering years after the wars. Agree with Don comments and don;t be disrespectful on this thread to armed forces today who in the end stand on the line in order to protect you and your family.

If you think we're bagging war veterans and their families, you've got it all wrong. Let's me try to put it to you in a way that will really bring it home. I don't think that any sane veteran who has died or suffered or participated in a war would be offended by me saying that the most effective way to honor their sacrifice is to make sure it never happens again. To do that we have to look not only to the past, but to the future, and apply what we've learned from the past to preventing future wars. To do this means we have to do more than commemorate battles and attend rituals of remembrance that focus largely on wartime propaganda. It means we have to look behind the curtain at the causal factors and learn how to nip them in the bud before they grow into the monster we call war.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Yes correct no one wants war. However , in the real world not tree hugging one the shit does not happen for example look what happened in WW2 with so called appeasement?and once again start up your own thread!!

 

[Burnt State]

You ignore the root reason for the problem and skip ahead to lamenting the effects.

Who financed the despots' rise to power?

Who put the people in danger?

Who benefited most from the lands and wealth stolen during genocides?

I don't think that acknowledging and validating the reasons why people choose to sacrifice themselves in war laments any effects at all. That position belittles choices individuals made. You can't skip over that part. It's real.

As for the other questions you ask I don't see any conspiracy at work amongst world bankers. Colonialism and imperialism are complex events that have many hands involved. My point is more concerned with ideas around protection and ending hateful ideologies that breed murder. Greed plays a role but it's not the only factor that causes the world to turn to war.

The stealing of lands and appropriation of material goods belonging to the other often has hatred at the root of its motivation. Hatred and the desire for control and dominance may be funded by some profiteers but they are often a sideline in war. Murderous hate comes first in my books.

You are missing the point that regardless of reason for why different wars start, it does not take away from the value of the warrior, the protector or the sacrifice. Again, I am entirely against war and don't believe in it. But I can still respect the choices that others make to serve society in the way they do, and respect the sacrifices they made. The one thing you are correct in saying is that those involved in war need our compassion.

 

[Burnt State]

To do this means we have to do more than commemorate battles and attend rituals of remembrance that focus largely on wartime propaganda. It means we have to look behind the curtain at the causal factors and learn how to nip them in the bud before they grow into the monster we call war.

I agree we need to root out hatred and practice peace with others instead of cultural interference. But stopping genocide should be something the world is ready to bring force to when it needs to.

I used to have confused positions on Remembrance Day until I investigated deeper on how war affected my family. Interviewing the vets also taught me a lot about what remembering means to those who went to war. I never see any glorification at any ceremony I've attended, just a lot of sad, terrible stories. Remembrance Day is an annual reminder to stop war by any means necessary.

Of course we now have different wars, fought by drones. Will we soon let the machine decide who to kill? I'm not sure about the future of war but I do know that those who survived past wars have to negotiate life and memory in ways more complicated than I have to. I don't see any glory in any of this.

 

[Randall]

Yes correct no one wants war. However , in the real world not tree hugging one the shit does not happen for example look what happened in WW2 with so called appeasement?and once again start up your own thread!!

Relax. I'm 100% sure that the people who actually made the sacrifices in wartime would feel most honored by us all making an effort to not repeat the same mistakes that led them to war in the first place. Let me emphasize that, 100% sure. So if that's how I chose to honor their sacrifice instead of reiterating wartime propoganda, then you've got no grounds to tell me to start my own thread. Try thinking about it instead of being so reactionary.

 

[flipper]

Ann Jones discusses her new book, They Were Soldiers: How the Wounded Return from America's Wars -- The Untold Story.

A review of her book:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/World/WOR-01-081113.html
A MP3 you can listen to her:
Talk Nation Radio | Let's Try Democracy
The poem that I should have memorized as a child:
I refuse to murder or maim this man, my brother,
Or soil my soul in the smoke of war’s red smother.
I refuse to kindle the flame that shall burn this city,
So my heart be murder-stained and dead to pity.
more:
Armistice Day : The Deserter: “I Refuse to Murder or Maim this Man, My Brother, I Refuse to Obey your Command” | Global Research
Canada's Contribution:
It is not the war makers but the victims who are left to bury their dead and comfort the homeless, the wounded, the mentally scarred and to clean up the landscapes made dangerous or uninhabitable from land mines, defoliants, or nuclear materials.
Pacifism in Canada, a debate
PHIL OCHS~I AIN'T MARCHING ANYMORE

Pacifism and Remembrance Day 2013
I think the same issue touches a nerve with people on the white poppy / red poppy issue. We’ve been programmed to respond in certain ways instead of critically thinking about what is being presented. Why is desiring peace and putting large amounts of energy into avoiding conflict seen as so counter cultural, and even threatening? Because it plays into a counter narrative, one that is seen to be threatening to power (people stop kowtowing to authority perhaps?).

 

[flipper]

Right after Pearl Harbor my dad, who was nineteen, and his older brother joined the Army. My father was sent to the Pacific theater and fought at the Battle of Okinawa. My father didn't glorify war. He just did his duty, that was the way he put it. My father didn't like talking about his experiences that much.

When I asked him what happened on Okinawa he only told me this much. The Japanese were entrenched in caves on the island. The only way to get to them was to use flame throwers and to get up close the entrances and flush them out. A lot of good men died on that island.

If you are saying every war is just, you are probably right. On the other hand we still need armed forces to defend the country, no matter what you might think Charlie.

I agree and the key word is defend.

 

[Charlie Prime]

We’ve been programmed to respond in certain ways instead of critically thinking about what is being presented.

That is changing. There is hope because more and more people are breaking free from the cultural programming.

In 1915 it was easy for the Hearst Corporation to help J.P. Morgan chew up American boys for profit. In 2013 when Barclay's and Qatar wanted to install an IMF/World Bank-friendly dictator in Syria, watermellon-head John Kerry couldn't get it done because people said NO.

Despite continuous teevee promotion of the fake "save the children from Assad" meme, millons and millions of people were able to circumvent the mainstream media via the internet and discover the real story, that the chemical attacks were actually conducted by the FSA-Al Ciada for the banks that own Qatar and the House of Saud.

War was averted. Untold numbers of kids were saved in both America and Syria. I believe this is the first time in history this has happened.

 

[Han]

In 1915 it was easy for the Hearst Corporation to help J.P. Morgan chew up American boys for profit.

The United States entered the Great War in 1917.

One of the first American soldiers killed was called James Bethel Grisham: (1893-1917)
He died on the third of November.

The first American Citizen killed in WWI was called Leon Chester Thrasher (1884-1915)
He was killed when the Cargo ship R.M.S Falaba was Torpedoed and Sunk on the twenty eighth of March 1915

Lest we forget.

 

[Charlie Prime]

...it is however in my opinion sometimes the only way to safeguard peace.

How many of the two hundred million human beings slaughtered by governments during the last 100 years do you estimate died to safeguard peace?

 

[danluck]

I may be old fashioned but I don't think remembrance day is the time to think about Liberal government policy in Britain in 1914 but rather about those who fought wars regardless of rank, background or class. There are 364 days a year left to discuss politics so why hijack this?

 

[boomerang]

There are 364 days a year left to discuss politics so why hijack this?

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

 

[Randall]

I may be old fashioned but I don't think remembrance day is the time to think about Liberal government policy in Britain in 1914 but rather about those who fought wars regardless of rank, background or class. There are 364 days a year left to discuss politics so why hijack this?

If you think this is hijacking, then how about those who parade the same propaganda over and over again every year as if war is the solution to the problems in the world. It's not. What's more, honoring those who sacrificed themselves believing they were fighting not to start a war, but to end it, can best be done by making sure their sons and daughters and grandchildren never have to go through the same thing, which means we have to be vigilant about the politics in the here and now and in the future. To do any less would be to ignore the sacrifices they made, and if they were here I'm sure they'd agree. That is unless they were part of the bunch that gets off on war or profits from it. Although we don't want to admit it, they are out there. They are the real bad guys. And yes somebody has to stop them, with force if necessary, but the point here is to learn from the past so that we can recognize the problems before it's turned into another freaking world war. The best way to do that is to talk about it, what better time than now?

 

[boomerang]

Since Veteran's Day has come and gone, I will weigh in further.

Please don't misunderstand my previous statement. The military industrial powers-that-be in this country confuse real needs for national defense with large scale economic strategies in ways that are hard to disentangle. They exploit innate adolescent needs and faux patriotism to further their goals in ways that are disgraceful. Does anyone recall the Jessica Lynch debacle ? Joe Camel has nothing on our government when it comes to marketing to the immature. (of all ages)

Still-- I think individuals whose lives have been forever re-shaped by war deserve a kind of respectful space in which to be heard. Just how to do this without simultaneously endorsing the policies that put them there, is problematical.