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Remembrance Day 2013

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I am disappointed that I allowed my self to add to the derailing of this thread, if I had not become "emotionally" involved I would of written the following sooner:

This thread was clearly intended as a funeral service of sorts, and deserved to be treated with the same consideration. It is not a time or place to argue or debate with those who are mourning.

here is a thread to discuss the issues surrounding war :War | The Paracast Community Forums
 
Whenever we talk about the dead it's easy to get emotional about it. War is political and deeply personal at the same time. Remembrance, on the other hand is a separate event. All over the world people remember what was lost, are sad for it, and hope dearly these losses will never be felt again. I agree with Han and others that talking about war's politics is a separate thread of ideas when the initial intention is to remember. Respecting people's right to remember their dead is an easy thing to do. Talking about its politics is like showing up at a vet's funeral with protest signs. It's just a sensitivity issue.
 
Maybe we could remember the first woman raped, the first refugee, the first city bombed, the first child to die of hunger , the first father to die, or the first son to return maimed during which ever war we wish to grieve that ever happened. Canada for the first time in history was fighting two wars at the same time, Libya and Afghanistan, something has to change in our thinking and doing. Let us grieve 1939-2013 endless war.
 
Listen to Decker and Burnt State. They pretty much have it covered.
Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr and other volunteers were special people. Some
disrespect them with their comments. I was lucky. I joined the USAF
too and never had to pull the trigger except in basic training and yearly
recertification. Like I would ever use a M16 in my job. I was trained
on aircraft weapons and spent most of my time in the UK as a nuclear
weapons specialist on fighter bombers based there during the cold war.
Talking to the WWII vets at airshows is always most interesting.
 
XAF-B-WATERS said:
Listen to Decker and Burnt State. They pretty much have it covered.
Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr and other volunteers were special people. Some
disrespect them with their comments. I was lucky. I joined the USAF
too and never had to pull the trigger except in basic training and yearly
recertification. Like I would ever use a M16 in my job. I was trained
on aircraft weapons and spent most of my time in the UK as a nuclear
weapons specialist on fighter bombers based there during the cold war.
Talking to the WWII vets at airshows is always most interesting.
Click to expand...
I have talked to a lot of veterans over many years. My fathers favorite visitor was a WWI veteran. Yes I have talked to many from the Second World War. Currently I have met the new veterans from Canada's recent wars. I would describe them all as good people. I wish I had always been aware, not that I really understand now, how these wars affected them. They deserve our full support.
 
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flipper said:
I have talked to a lot of veterans over many years. My fathers favorite visitor was a WWI veteran. Yes I have talked to many from the Second World War. Currently I have met the new veterans from Canada's recent wars. I would describe them as all good people. I wish I had always been aware, not that I really understand now, how these wars affected them. They deserve our full support.
Click to expand...

I used to work with a German who loaded canons in WW2 and right next to our department was an Englishman who fought on the front lines against Gemany in WW2. The German says he didn't agree with Hitler's war, but he was barely a teen ager and was forced into it. The English guy told me how on the front line where he was, each side engaged in fighting as though it was work, and during breaks they would plant a flag and have a drink together, then go back to fighting, but not killing each other, until one day the commanders came out and demanded they start killing each other or be summarily court martialed ( which could mean execution on the spot ).

Then I started reading about the bankers in Britain who invested in Hitler's party, and the companies that made uniforms and parts for both sides, and the avoidance of certain industrial enemy targets because they were owned by domestic companies. Add to that the mountains of propaganda fed to the soldiers who were forced into fighting by conscription on both sides while the evil elitist mofos funding and stoking the fires on both sides watched them die, and what I see as the "reason they were sacrificed" has nothing to do with our "freedom of speech", but to do with a massive industrial and political war machine run by a comparatively few elitists.

I see the above as a crime against humanity and a crime against the soldiers who were sent into battle on both sides, and that failing to recognize the causal factors means the powers that engineered their fates got away with it. Trying to silence people who try to make people see this by invoking sentiment and making false allegations that this kind of talk is disrespectful just don't get it, or don't want to get it ,or worse yet, want to keep the truth hidden in order to make it easier to pull off another lousy war.

How is it in any way disrespectful to honor those who were sacrificed by doing what we can to prevent their children and grandchildren from meeting a similar fate? I'm sorry but I just don't see it and I make no apologies for it. It's certainly what I would want if it were me, not a bunch of band playing parading around in uniform reciting the same propaganda they fed those who went to war. Maybe @Charlie Prime was a little less than tactful in his first post, but I don't see his intent as being any different than mine. Charlie?
 
ufology said:
I used to work with a German who loaded canons in WW2 and right next to our department was an Englishman who fought on the front lines against Gemany in WW2. The German says he didn't agree with Hitler's war, but he was barely a teen ager and was forced into it. The English guy told me how on the front line where he was, each side engaged in fighting as though it was work, and during breaks they would plant a flag and have a drink together, then go back to fighting, but not killing each other, until one day the commanders came out and demanded they start killing each other or be summarily court martialed ( which could mean execution on the spot ).

Then I started reading about the bankers in Britain who invested in Hitler's party, and the companies that made uniforms and parts for both sides, and the avoidance of certain industrial enemy targets because they were owned by domestic companies. Add to that the mountains of propaganda fed to the soldiers who were forced into fighting by conscription on both sides while the evil elitist mofos funding and stoking the fires on both sides watched them die, and what I see as the "reason they were sacrificed" has nothing to do with our "freedom of speech", but to do with a massive industrial and political war machine run by a comparatively few elitists.

I see the above as a crime against humanity and a crime against the soldiers who were sent into battle on both sides, and that failing to recognize the causal factors means the powers that engineered their fates got away with it. Trying to silence people who try to make people see this by invoking sentiment and making false allegations that this kind of talk is disrespectful just don't get it, or don't want to get it ,or worse yet, want to keep the truth hidden in order to make it easier to pull off another lousy war.

How is it in any way disrespectful to honor those who were sacrificed by doing what we can to prevent their children and grandchildren from meeting a similar fate? I'm sorry but I just don't see it and I make no apologies for it. It's certainly what I would want if it were me, not a bunch of band playing parading around in uniform reciting the same propaganda they fed those who went to war. Maybe @Charlie Prime was a little less than tactful in his first post, but I don't see his intent as being any different than mine. Charlie?
Click to expand...
Yes I am still posting about Remembrance Day because I want to change how people remember war, without attacking the people who have already paid a price for being in one!
 
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ufology said:
Maybe Charlie Prime was a little less than tactful in his first post, but I don't see his intent as being any different than mine.
Click to expand...

The lack of tact was me avoiding sophistry and attempting to get to the root of the matter. All the militaria is part of the psychological program to trick men into dying for bankers. That’s it.

A man’s first duty is to protect his family, then his neighborhood, then his town and so on. Bankers exploit this natural and good instinct to trick men into killing each other unnecessarily. It’s sick and detestable I refuse to dance around that fact, pretending it’s something noble.

Here is the rifle I’m building today. It’s not controlled by some political thug a thousand miles away for use against some farmer in a foreign land. It’s controlled by me and my daughters, not some banker.

zpopper.jpg
 
Charlie Prime said:
The lack of tact was me avoiding sophistry and attempting to get to the root of the matter. All the militaria is part of the psychological program to trick men into dying for bankers. That’s it.

A man’s first duty is to protect his family, then his neighborhood, then his town and so on. Bankers exploit this natural and good instinct to trick men into killing each other unnecessarily. It’s sick and detestable I refuse to dance around that fact, pretending it’s something noble.

Here is the rifle I’m building today. It’s not controlled by some political thug a thousand miles away for use against some farmer in a foreign land. It’s controlled by me and my daughters, not some banker.
Click to expand...

So who are going to shoot then Charlie, the poor sod who's been tricked into sacrificing himself or the evil banker? Have you even considered that maybe not all bankers are evil and not all soldiers are idiots? Have you considered that maybe you don't need a gun to solve this problem and that half the problem is too many of the wrong people with guns in the first place? It's a more complex problem than all that and I find it ironic that your solution is to build yourself an assault weapon. Not that I'm an advocate of hard core gun control ( I'm not ). But I don't own any guns and the less people I know and see with them the safer I feel, and I hope I never find myself in a situation where I need one. But honestly, an assault rifle? FSS what the hell are you planning for with that? The zombie apocalypse?
 
Pygar2 said:
How can you tell that's an assault rifle? Looks exactly like a home defense rifle, to me...
Click to expand...

I say it's an assault rifle because it looks similar to the assault rifles in the 8 million other pictures of assault rifles that you get when you type "assault rifle" into Google. It sure aint no paintball gun. Those look like real bullets to me.
 
What is the technical difference between an "assault" and "home defense" rifle? Why are home defense rifles called "assault rifles"? It's as if someone wants us to equate protecting ourselves, with attacking others... But who could possibly benefit from that? ;-)

Anyone who wants to disarm you, has just announced an intention to do something to you, you'd shoot them for... if you still could. If every tenth "Silberbaur" had died in the act, a lot fewer "Franks" would have...

And since bankers are on both sides, and since bankers and relatives thereof die in wars just like everyone else, I am getting a few laughs from this thread that probably aren't intended. The people who yap most about bankers wouldn't loan a dime to Fort Knox. What is wrong with earning a profit by loaning money and backing businesses? You don't work for free, why should my banker? And if your answer includes a variation on the word "profiteer", please explain what level of profit you arbitrarily think is OK for someone else to earn- and by extension, yourself.
 
If you want less violence and more peace then dismantling the war machine starts with you and gov'ts, and all the militarized inbetween, giving up all the tools of war and to teach more peace.

But if we as nations insist on sending our young to fight old men's wars then let us remember their valor, honour and courage. Let us give each individual life a place in memory that says here there was once a human being who gave themselves up; because, they believed it was the just thing to do out of a sense of duty and protection. This is what we remember.

These thoughts are also a core part of the militaria, and they have nothing to do with profit, nor do all wars have their root cause in profit. That's a very limited view of the many forces that have shaped history and war. Again, there was another thread to discuss this specific topic elsewhere where hating war and it's causes can be explored. But this thread was about memory.
 
Burnt State said:
If you want less violence and more peace then dismantling the war machine starts with you and gov'ts, and all the militarized inbetween, giving up all the tools of war and to teach more peace.

But if we as nations insist on sending our young to fight old men's wars then let us remember their valor, honour and courage. Let us give each individual life a place in memory that says here there was once a human being who gave themselves up; because, they believed it was the just thing to do out of a sense of duty and protection. This is what we remember.

These thoughts are also a core part of the militaria, and they have nothing to do with profit, nor do all wars have their root cause in profit. That's a very limited view of the many forces that have shaped history and war. Again, there was another thread to discuss this specific topic elsewhere where hating war and it's causes can be explored. But this thread was about memory.
Click to expand...
Dismantling the war machine starts with us. It starts with how we think about war which includes how we remember it. The government acts as the corporate enforcer. The media tells only what the corporations want us to know. Our educators tell us how we should think about events from the elite perspective. Nations cannot insist on sending our children to wars. The ruling class can lie, trick, propagandize and coerce people into going to war. The ruling class makes huge profits from war. This is the engine of war. Therefore when remember, we should remember the death, destruction, suffering, lies, manipulation and who made huge profits from the war, as well as valor and the price paid by those who actually did the fighting. If we do not change what we remember, we will continue to offer our children as sacrifices on the ruling classes alter of power and profit.
 
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flipper said:
Dismantling the war machine starts with us. It starts with how we think about war which includes how we remember it. The government acts as the corporate enforcer. The media tells only what the corporations want us to know. Our educators tell us how we should think about events from the elite perspective. Nations cannot insist on sending our children to wars. The ruling class can lie, trick, propagandize and coerce people into going to war. The ruling class makes huge profits from war. This is the engine of war. Therefore when remember, we should remember the death, destruction, suffering, lies, manipulation and who made huge profits from the war, as well as valor and the price paid by those who actually did the fighting. If we do not change what remember we will continue to offer our children as sacrifices on the ruling classes alter of power and profit.
Click to expand...
In tone, moreso than ufology's statements, and so much further away than young Stalin, your post is the first one to try to turn a corner on remembrance that embraces the spirit of it. If we are to try to unify the narratives of the warrior/protector with the reasons for war's initiation, we have to then discuss, in the war thread, whether or not there are legitimate, moral causes for war, that stand outside any profiteering vs. those initiated, promoted and defined primarily by the war profiteer.
 
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