Ron Paul

[Miah]

I don't agree with evolution either, it is indeed a theory. More and more scientists are now also accepting this view.

I'd venture to say there is more proof of UFOs than evolution.

 

[BrandonD]

Ron Paul doesn't accept the Theory of Evolution.
Question posed at 2min35.

I'm not a US citizen, I have no say in this election, but for fucks sake, "it's a theory, a theory of evolution and I dont accept it"...
C'mon. He should have refused to answer rather than this tripe.

Ah, I've tried my best to steer away from this subject because it's not gonna make any friends, but this comment is just asking for it.

Are you ready for a shocker? Evolution is a belief system. Evolutionary biology is a big peripheral interest of mine, and I've read quite alot about it on all sides of the issue.

It is not a simple black/white issue. Evolution is not either true or false. But the fact is that huge foundational tenets of evolution are unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. In fact, the available evidence often supports contrary ideas.

And no, I cannot provide to you a sound bite that sums up the many problems with current evolutionary theory. Believe me or don't. If the subject actually interests you, then you should read about it.

If you happen to believe in evolution exactly as it has been served to you by the scientific establishment, I can almost guarantee with 100% certainty that you do not believe it because you weighed all the available evidence and decided on the establishment position. Exactly like a religious man, the reason you believe in evolution is because of *what it represents*.

In fact, there are many parallels between evolution and religion. Both of them have become the cultural embodiment of a particular ideology, and they are presented to our culture as the "official spokesmen" for these ideologies. Because of this, even though they are both hugely flawed, they both have enormous support simply because men support the ideologies.

If you believe that men should make decision based upon reason and scientific data rather than blind faith, then chances are you believe in evolution. Because that is the ideology that evolution represents and communicates to others.

"Men of science" can easily see that gullible religious people have been hoodwinked into accepting a fictitious religious belief system that falsely proclaims to represent a particular ideology. Even though it promotes itself as the representative of righteousness and goodness, it is clearly not.

But these same men cannot see that they themselves have been equally hoodwinked. I think it's kind of tragic that it's so much easier for us to see the flaws in other people's thinking than it is to see the flaws in our own. (I don't think I'm immune to this, by the way)

Anyway, I'm cool with you disagreeing w me. But hopefully this will get someone interested enough to actually look into the literature and read about it.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

I agree with Brandon.

Due to the limitations of current knowledge, there are some things we simply do not know. Where we come from is one such issue. The so-called intelligent design argument is unsubstantiated. Similarly, the theory of evolution has some major problems. One of these problems is the mystery around the emergence of sexual reproduction. How did single celled, asexual bacteria and other organisms develop bi-gendered anatomy? This is a huge problem. What came first, the male or the female, the chicken or the egg, etc.

Both sides of the evolution/intelligent design argument are equally dangerous forms of mutual fundamentalism.

This is basically what Paul pointed out, although he said that he believes in an anthropomorphic deity who actively created mankind and the universe. But Paul pointed out that his was only a belief, based on faith, and therefore possibly wrong. He appears at the very least to understand the distinction between belief and fact, and he wins some points on that score.

 

[DBTrek]

I think this thread demonstrates one of the large problems facing America. The average citizen really does look at evolution, UFO sightings, and Intelligent Design as roughly equivalent. This is primarily due to a lack of education/intellectual curiousity on behalf of the citizen. Having a major political party constantly trying to muddy the waters of science and bring us back to a moral, christian foundation isn't doing much to help us out of the situation either.

That having been said, we have significant physical evidence and empirical evidence supporting evolution. We've repeatedly been able to use the theory of evolution to aid our understanding of the natural world and achieve breakthroughs in related sciences (like gentetics). It's far from a 100% accurate representation of how we all came to be here, but it has infinitely more supporting it than pseudosciences like UFO investigation or Intelligent Design.

The world is right to fear us. A heavily armed nation full of mediocre minds is not a recipe for national/global utopia.

 

[BrandonD]

I think this thread demonstrates one of the large problems facing America. The average citizen really does look at evolution, UFO sightings, and Intelligent Design as roughly equivalent. This is primarily due to a lack of education/intellectual curiousity on behalf of the citizen. Having a major political party constantly trying to muddy the waters of science and bring us back to a moral, christian foundation isn't doing much to help us out of the situation either.

That having been said, we have significant physical evidence and empirical evidence supporting evolution. We've repeatedly been able to use the theory of evolution to aid our understanding of the natural world and achieve breakthroughs in related sciences (like gentetics). It's far from a 100% accurate representation of how we all came to be here, but it has infinitely more supporting it than pseudosciences like UFO investigation or Intelligent Design.

The world is right to fear us. A heavily armed nation full of mediocre minds is not a recipe for national/global utopia.

Your comments are a perfect example of why I can't discuss this theory with people. An honest question: have you read any of the literature apart from internet articles?

As much as painting the world black and white appeals to you, evolution is not something simple like "where did the soda in my fridge come from?" It is a complex subject. Some aspects of it are greatly supported, and others are not supported at all.

Darwin's model of evolution is different than the current model, and his discoveries do not support many tenets of the current model. Then again, he was a naturalist and a scientist, and not a materialist atheist with an axe to grind.

I swear, these days science and religion are looking less like belief systems and more like opposing football teams. And you've made it clear what team you're rooting for.

Myself, I hate sports.

 

[DBTrek]

Your comments are a perfect example of why I can't discuss this theory with people. An honest question: have you read any of the literature apart from internet articles?

Yes, of course.

As much as painting the world black and white appeals to you, evolution is not something simple like "where did the soda in my fridge come from?" It is a complex subject. Some aspects of it are greatly supported others are not supported at all.

. . . and that is what separates it from Intelligent Design and UFO sightings. The amount of supporting evidence, the fact that we can predict biological behaviors (like inheritence), the way we use the tenets of Evolution in eveything from dating ethnic ancestry to the Google Search Engine (which uses genetic algorhithms). This body of evidence, paired with reproducible tests, paired with the ability to make accurate predictions based on the theory cause it to be light years ahead of Intelligent Design and UFO sightings.

This strikes me as a topic that matters because I have a vested interest in seeing our country produce an educated, civilized population and not a nations of fast food munching layabouts that cant see the difference between the Theory of Evolution and a UFO Sighting. I don't want to see us become the Western version of Iran where everything is explained by Jesus and miracles. I don't want to live somewhere science is only allowed as long as it doesn't contradict what the Theocrats want to hear.

If we don't do a better job of educating people on how/why the Theory of Evolution is far different than Intelligent Design/UFO sightings we're going to be on the path of becoming a second, maybe third rate nation. We'll be walking the road to a Dark Age mentality where superstition and provable fact are roughly equivalent.

I swear, these days science and religion are looking less like belief systems and more like opposing football teams. And you've made it clear what team you're rooting for.

Myself, I hate sports.

Your reference to science as a 'belief system' raises quite a few questions in my mind. Science isn't based on belief, nor is it a religion. Not only are the two not competing teams, they're entirely different (and mutually exclusive) games.

 

[BrandonD]

Your reference to science as a 'belief system' raises quite a few questions in my mind. Science isn't based on belief, nor is it a religion. Not only are the two not competing teams, they're entirely different (and mutually exclusive) games.

One example of a completely unsupported tenet is this dogged insistence upon random mutations as the driving mechanism behind evolutionary change. There are many reasons why this point of view is being irrationally clung to when all the evidence runs contrary. They are mostly sociological reasons, which all human beings, even our most venerable scientists, are susceptible to. I think that any person giving some thought to the subject can arrive at some of these reasons.

A belief system can be defined as an idea that is held when there is no evidence to support it. Or when the evidence runs contrary.

Science, in its pure conceptual form, is of course not a belief system. But we're talking about science as it exists today in the real world, not science as it could exist in a perfect world. And unfortunately, science as it exists today in the real world is largely a belief system.

 

[DBTrek]

One example of a completely unsupported tenet is this dogged insistence upon random mutations as the driving mechanism behind evolutionary change. There are many reasons why this point of view is being irrationally clung to when all the evidence runs contrary. They are mostly sociological reasons, which all human beings, even our most venerable scientists, are susceptible to. I think that any person giving some thought to the subject can arrive at some of these reasons.

A belief system can be defined as an idea that is held when there is no evidence to support it. Or when the evidence runs contrary.

Certainly there are aspects of Evolutionary Theory that fall into the category you describe. Gentic drift vs. mutation is a good example. The problem is when people can't tell the difference between a core, testable, reliable theory that has some unexplained facets and a field that is entirely unexplained and untestable.

I agree generally with most of what your last post said. Yet I'm compelled to kick the dead horse one more time to plead the case for a smarter society. I think the juncture we're at right now is going to be critical 100 years from now, and I'll tell you why.

Imagine America adopting some or all of the following policies:
1. Pulling Evolution from public schools or teaching it side by side with Creationism/Intelligent Design.
2. No stem cell research allowed.
3. No manipulation of the human genome allowed.
4. Private business can buy exclusive rights to certain genes and hold a monopoly on researching them (outside of the US, of course).

Now imagine that China, Russia, and the whole of Europe follow none of the above policies. Fast forward a hundred years and how does our medicine look compared to the rest of the world? How about our (non-modified) military? How about our sciences?

Then think about 200 years down the road.

That's why, at the risk of sounding like a repetitive internet shut-in, I pound away at things like this. We've got to start being a little smarter in this country. We've got to start exercising some basic reasoning and foresight in the decisions we make. Yet, when 80%+ of the population is claiming Christianity, schools in Kansas are removing evolution from the curriculum, and people equate the Theory of Evolution with Intelligent Design and UFO sightings I begin to feel that we're seriously screwed.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong, and 200 years from now we'll be the geniuses and the rest of the world will be the fools. One can only hope.

 

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[Tommy Allison]

Ron Paul was my guy, and I watched the mainstream media marginalize him, and anyone who supported him.

I watched every assclown who supported McCain use Ron Paul, and anyone who supported Paul as a punchline. Then I watched all the pathological lying pieces of shit that were running after Paul dropped out parroting his ideas.

I am sickened by the lack of leadership this country has. For a nation to have 300 million people in it, we are to be led by someone who can't even prove they were born here in the United States? McCain was going to win? PLEASE...

When people talk about how Bush stole two elections, they forget who Bush ran against. You had Gore the first time around, a man who had been marginalized by who he was VP for. You had Kerry who was a complete joke for a candidate. This time around we had Hitlery, Obama, McStain, and of course Mittens Romney.

For Fuck's sake... If people can't see we don't get the leaders we need, as opposed to the leaders we deserve, I don't know what to think anymore.

I have turned my back on this fraudulent governance, because I am taxed, and not represented. No matter who we get, they will never stand against tyranny. They ARE tyranny's acolyte.

The proof? Hillary Clinton for Secretary of State, while her criminal husband still takes money from overseas contributors.

A plague and a pox on ALL of their houses.