Show Direction?

[cottonzway]

LOL @ the "War on Terrorism"

Let's see... the 1993 World Trade center attacks, '95 bombings in France, '98 African embassy bombings, '00 USS Cole attack, '02 Bali bombing, '04 Madrid bombings, '05 London bombings, '06 Indian bombings, etc., etc. by the hundreds - both before and after the Bush administration. The fanatics who assassinated Anwar el-Sadat in 1981 decorated their holding cages with banners stating the "caliphate or death." That's their goal. Very simple.

Mao Zedong formulated the strategy known as "fight fight talk talk." It was a brilliant success, as the Iranians are learning. Couple that with taking advantage of "useful idiots" (coined by the Soviet Russians as millions of their own people were exterminated) and you get an insight into their tactics. They are also counting on the belief that the West is too soft and weak-willed to engage in a sustained fight. UBL recognized that when he called the US a paper tiger. Like the evil entities discussed in paranormal circles, they feed and grow on fear and weakness.

Forty percent of Rotterdam's population is Muslim and Mohammed is "the" the most popular baby boy's name in Belgium and the fifth most popular in the United Kingdom. Clearly the world cannot resolve the radicalization of the religion by military means. We can laugh and ignore the problem. Those who would like nothing more than to destroy civilization are counting on it and laughing with you. But in a time of dangerous nuclear proliferation with a growing number of individuals who glorify killing and being killed, I don't see much to laugh about.

It's time to stop the name calling and work together to deal with the root causes of this cancer. Blaming everything on Bush is not helpful, is a distraction and only encourages the radicals. The movement saw exponential growth during the Clinton administration, but the root causes are so complicated that there is little he could have done either. It has to come from within. Local governments and individuals must stop to say, "we've had it!", take charge and deal with their own issues. We are seeing some of that happen in Iraq's Anbar province, where the locals were tired of the torture and murder of children before their parents' eyes and just the overall violence and slaughter.

And to tie this to the paranormal, does the fact that we have no verifiable evidence of time travel mean that it will never happen? Will we destroy ourselves (or get hit by a big rock, Yosemite blast, etc.) before we can ever attain that technology? Either time travel, or at least travel to the past, is impossible and always be or our future doesn't look too promising.

You mean the same 1993 WTC bombing where Emad Salem recorded FBI agents telling him to go through with it? The same 7/7 London bombings where Peter Power of Visor Corp was on the TV saying his company was running drills for the SAME EXACT situation that just so happen to go “live?” Hmmm.

The way the political system in this country is set up is like this. There is a flavor of fearmongering and a way to take human rights away on both sides. On the right you have “The War on Terrorism” and on the left you have “Global Warming”, both sides are a means to try and cause fear and not to use logical thinking on either side. Essentially it is a buffet of lies.

Give up your rights, trash the constitution, allow genocide to take place as well run an aggressive invasion of a country that we had no business going into, nor did we follow our own constitution making the war illegal on it’s face or the boogeyman is going to get us. That in a nutshell is the war on terrorism. The other side is just a way to cause fear into paying a global carbon tax because it’s “our fault” that mother earth is dying. So we will just tax you on your life. It’s a great scam on both sides and many people fall for it.

Are there “terrorists” in the world? Sure there are. Do they exist in the Middle East? Yes. Does that mean I should give up my rights? No it does not. Look at the laws that have been passed because of this fearmongering. Have you ever read any of the sections of the Patriot Act (section 213 and 802)? How about any of the military commission acts like HR 6166 (bye bye Habeas Corpus) or HR 5122 (bye bye Posse Comitatus)? Do you see a pattern here?

 

[Brian Now]

It's simply an uncontestable fact that compartments of the US government know far more than they are telling about the ufo mystery. That single point kinda makes political discussions unavoidable, if ufos are the topic of discussion.

Yeah, true, but it's an assumption when people say that info the government has is of any value. It's possible they just know more info on the details of sightings but zero on the nature of the objects seen. What if they're only slightly more informed than the rest of us? Their extra details could make the field a little more interesting with disclosure, but bring us no closer to understanding anything. Man, if that were true the orthodoxy of ufology would be in trouble.

I'm not talking about you specifically Brandon, I am really talking more about people like Stephen Bassett on the last episode. He stated with certainty the US government is involved in reverse-engineering projects of alien technology. No proof...just belief.

 

[lazyslackmaster]

Let's stir this a little harder...

What does everyone mean when the term "Government? is thrown out? Is the "Government" Bush? The Military? A secret dept? You can't lump all podcasts or forums into one group called "podcasts" or "forums". There are thousands of them, and I think the same goes for the "Government".

 

[cottonzway]

Let's stir this a little harder...

What does everyone mean when the term "Government? is thrown out? Is the "Government" Bush? The Military? A secret dept? You can't lump all podcasts or forums into one group called "podcasts" or "forums". There are thousands of them, and I think the same goes for the "Government".

Excellent question.

I do not think much of who is to blame for many of the problems that are going on in socitey (iraq, 9/11, propaganda news, the destruction of our bill of rights, ect) lays at the feet of the military industral complex and their many private compaines that are no considered "government or military" but in fact ARE the government/military in many ways. Pretty much we are a socialist country at the top that works for the private sector, banks, elites, corprations, and international interests. It disgusts and pains me to say that, but it is true.

Often I see people saying it's the "shadow government" in control and I don't really believe that. I guess to an extent, but many of these agencies and private compaines are very much in the public. I don't think agencies like the CIA, FBI, or NSA control nearly what they once did. When you break it down NORTHCOM runs this countries military, thus really runs this country.

The real disgraceful people who could be grouped into that "government" term would be the private contracted war profitiers.
Compaines like Bechtel, Lockheed MartinRaytheon, Haliburton, DynCorp, Parsons, Titan, Black Water, KBR, ect. These compaines, plus many others, are the REASON we are at war and continue to stay at war. They get billions of dollars in no bid contracts and do not want the "good times" to stop. The crimes that many of those compaines have committed are vile. From trying to chrage for rainwater in 3rd world countries to sex slavery rings for children these compaines are not involved in "typical" corporate crimes. They are the scum of the earth, yet continue to get those contracts. Why? Because making these compaines "private" means it's not the government doing it. It's Orwellian double think that is used on the American people to fooling them that this is even remotley acceptbale.

 

[DBTrek]

Your argument that evidence proving the cover-up would undermine the cover-up is just wrong. Evidence is absolutely useless unless *people know about it*.

If know one knows about it then it's not evidence, it's speculation.

Your statement is true only in a utopian world where people are actually informed of relevant and factual information.

No, my statement is true here on Earth. A truly open mind can consider all options. Obviously you're not willing to consider the possibility that the government isn't hiding anything significant. This speaks to the limitations you've placed on your own thinking, not the reality of my statement.

 

[Brian Now]

A truly open mind can consider all options. Obviously you're not willing to consider the possibility that the government isn't hiding anything significant.

DBTrek, I agree with the spirit of this statement (generally, not specifically about brandonD). It's an important point and completely goes against ufological dogma...is "ufological" a word? Anyway, the point is that your avatar paints an extremely inaccurate portrait of Jawas as sinister, anarchistic demonic monsters, and I'm not going to just stand by and let it go unchallenged.

 

[BrandonD]

Yeah, true, but it's an assumption when people say that info the government has is of any value. It's possible they just know more info on the details of sightings but zero on the nature of the objects seen. What if they're only slightly more informed than the rest of us? Their extra details could make the field a little more interesting with disclosure, but bring us no closer to understanding anything. Man, if that were true the orthodoxy of ufology would be in trouble.

I'm not talking about you specifically Brandon, I am really talking more about people like Stephen Bassett on the last episode. He stated with certainty the US government is involved in reverse-engineering projects of alien technology. No proof...just belief.

Yeah I would agree with that. I think it's reasonable to think that the government knows more than they're telling, but when someone claims to know the details of what the government knows (alien bodies, reverse-engineered stuff) they better have some pretty solid evidence to back it up.

 

[BrandonD]

Let's stir this a little harder...

What does everyone mean when the term "Government? is thrown out? Is the "Government" Bush? The Military? A secret dept? You can't lump all podcasts or forums into one group called "podcasts" or "forums". There are thousands of them, and I think the same goes for the "Government".

That's a good point and I absolutely agree. I'd say the majority of the compartmentalized segments of the government can say with honesty "We know nothing about the ufo phenomenon and have no interest in it."

 

[BrandonD]

No, my statement is true here on Earth. A truly open mind can consider all options. Obviously you're not willing to consider the possibility that the government isn't hiding anything significant. This speaks to the limitations you've placed on your own thinking, not the reality of my statement.

Ok I take back the "fact" statement. It's my opinion that factions of the government know more than the general public about the ufo phenomenon. It's possible that they don't know, but according to the evidence I've come across, that seems very unlikely. Call me crazy, but my opinions tend to go along with what is most likely.

I've provided evidence that supports my opinion. Please provide evidence that counters my opinion, and I'll change it.

 

[DBTrek]

Ok I take back the "fact" statement. It's my opinion that factions of the government know more than the general public about the ufo phenomenon. It's possible that they don't know, but according to the evidence I've come across, that seems very unlikely. Call me crazy, but my opinions tend to go along with what is most likely.

I don't think that approach is crazy, though we disagree over what seems 'most likely'. I'm just advocating for keeping our minds open to all possibilities. I agree with lending more weight to the possibilities that seem more likely.

I've provided evidence that supports my opinion. Please provide evidence that counters my opinion, and I'll change it.

I wasn't trying to dissuade you from your opinions. If you feel that it is likely that the government has information about alien craft based on what you provided, more power to you.

-DBTrek

 

[schticknz]

Ahh the "war on terrorism". Of course not many people (who do not of course look outside the bought and paid for mainstream press) know that this was dreamt up in about 1986 by none other than that paragon of peace and light, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu.

But no matter what you think of Mr Netanyahu, no real, sane person can take his doctrine of "war on terror" seriously. It's such an amorphous phrase that it could mean literally anything at all.

Its just another means of control to keep the masses frightened, and to keep their eyes wide shut ... from seeing what really is going on in the world around them.

In some ways the paranormal does seem to intersect with the political, though, in ways that are only now coming to light. Did you know there are links between the Maury Island UFO sighting and the assassination of JFK?? (a witness of the M.I. UFO was implicated as being the grassy knoll assassin in Dallas).

Anyway for more on the para-political as it is being called in some circles see "Smiles" Lewis' podcast, PsiOp Radio on the Anomaly Radio Network. (Don't always agree what he says about the 9/11 attacks but he does have some interesting things to say about the sometimes strange collisions between the paranormal and the political).

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Lazyslackmaster, Good try mate but as you can see people on this thread prefer to talk politics rather than talk paranormal or anything but "government cover ups of UFO'S".

If Gene and David want to inject political comment into show, then that's their choice, i suppose it is after all, their show.
It's indicative of the field in general that there is nothing new or important to talk about any more. No more interesting guests no more interesting presentations of current investigations, it has gone extremely stale, again.

Wait! I can hear the "nasty negativists" chomping at the bit waiting to spew some pro political invective at me for daring to hijack a non political thread with something other than political comment or opinion,
How dare i bring the thread back to its original subject matter!!!
I can't wait for the typical "blah, blah blah" responses.
Wake up people! Political argument is about as useful as religious argument, it solves nothing and polarizes people who probably agree on the subjects that this show and forum covers, THE PARANORMAL!

Maybe someone should start up a politics forum for those who feel the need to rant and rave about their favourite politician to hate.
Forget the "WAR on TERRORISM", how 'bout a "WAR ON TELEVISION" or better still a "WAR ON THE INJECTION OF POLITICAL DEBATE INTO A FORUM OR THREAD DESIGNED FOR THE DISCUSSION OF PARANORMAL SUBJECTS".

 

[The Pair of Cats]

David and Gene, at least, are trying their arses off to get interesting guests on the show as hard as that may be for them and they are generally pretty minimal in their political content on the show.

And that's what we need. People who want to expand on the UFO field NOT the current political field.

Nameste.

 

[musictomyears]

Here is some support for my assumption (note the web addresses):

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00047.pdf

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00050.pdf

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00008.pdf

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00011.pdf

Some are articles and some are the direct UFO reports themselves. There are records in there of tracking ufos that fly away at a high rate of speed and then split into multiple "balls of fire". Our f-14s can't pull that trick off quite yet.

Interesting stuff, thanks for the link. How anybody can believe that "governments" or their official and in-official branches don't know about UFOs is beyond me... Wait - Nick Pope claims just that.

At the very least, military (and even civilian) radar operators are in a position to gauge speed, altitude and flying patterns of UFOs. They can tell, to a certain extend, how the objects entered our airspace. They can tell if the UFOs simply appeared - as some do - or if they approached Earth from outer space. They can tell which direction UFOs fly when they finally leave Earth. That's not rocket science, is it.

This thread somehow reminds me of a discussion we had earlier. There is a certain mindset that believes in authority, that needs authority to feel safe in the world. The same mindset will defend and justify apparent inaptitude of said authority, but interpret inaptitude as ignorance. There are so many examples.

 

[schticknz]

Oh I totally understand what you say. I, myself, just like to throw in my own opinions sometimes (and I have to admit, I am very new to this place, and am still finding my feet ... so excuse any lapses in etiquette) ... and, unfortunately, the meaning of what I'm trying to put across (I can't speak for anyone else) may be taken the wrong way.

But it would be nice to have a forum that purely talks about the paranormal, ufos etc (without any outside influences or topics seeping in). However that would still involve those strange creatures, human beings, and, well, when you throw them into the equation, all hell does tend to break loose.

We all have our pet prejudices and philosophies, I guess, and I think that people who are into the paracast and programmes like it tend (I hope) to be thinking people (c2c listeners can look away now). So it is inevitable, really, that the paranormal will intersect with other facets of one's intellectual life from time to time. Its just one of those things (but I promise from now on to try holding onto my tongue and try to discuss the paranormal with out getting too outside the subject).

Blimey ... you wouldn't believe I've just watched an old Outer Limits episode involving some sort of alien intelligence taking over tumbleweed and then attacking people ... think my mental faculties have been altered in some strange way ... or am I just mellowing with old age???

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I think the direction that the show is heading, is fine.
You can tell that mine hosts, Gene and David, are trying really hard to offer interesting guests and information and kudos to them both!!! It's just a shame that some seem to think of this forum as a platform for "political" debate .

Schticknz. Saw a good Doco from NZ tje other day, "Secret New Zealand" i think it was called. Had a story about a bunch of college students there hoaxing one of the local rags with a UFO sighting. Have you seen it?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Looking forward to the Joseph A. Citro interview/show!

 

[schticknz]

Pair of Cats: No I didn't see the doco unfortunately. But its bound to be repeated at some point. The TV people over here like their repeats so its bound to pop up again sometime ... and I shall keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the heads up anyway. There's a real lack of decent para-type programmes down here. Too much rugby and terrible reality tv programmes unfortunately.

 

[spookyparadigm]

By their nature, certain elements of the paranormal are likely to engender political thought and discussion.

On the most literal level, as discussed in this thread, UFOs have been inextricably linked to government secrecy by many ufologists and some of the public since 1947. As Richard Dolan shows in his writing, there has been much interest in UFOs by members of the US and other governments. Personally, I think this could in many cases be interest in the topic by people who happen to be in government and can use that to look further. In other cases it is clearly used by intelligence agents as a smokescreen for other activities.

Alternatively, if you think there is a non-human intelligence behind UFOs and related phenomena (extraterrestrials, ultraterrestrials, cryptoterrestrials, fairies, time travellers, whatever), and that this phenomena has been messing with humans for a long time (as many except for the most literal nuts-and-boltsters think), then the spectre of secret knowledge and secret societies raises its head. You can laugh at the likes of David Icke or others, but if you believe that humans are regularly interacting with powerful non-human intelligences, does it not make sense that at least some humans would hoard knowledge about these intelligences, and attempt to leverage this into a form or power or to serve such intelligences? Look at culture contact situations where radically technologically-unequal societies came into contact. Some fought, but others wanted desperately to sell out (see the descriptions of Hawaiians swimming out to Cook's ship in order to trade for bizarre and exotic goods without the need to go through the existing social structure), or were intensely curious. Items from the strangers were magical and exotic and became highly valuable (like shoe gimlets in the late 15th and early 16th century Caribbean). If you think that a similar kind of contact or control has been going on for centuries and millennia, it makes perfect sense that this was not first discovered in the latter part of the 20th century, and that at least some groups of people banded together to investigate and exploit the situation. This in turn dovetails very nicely with conspiracy theories of all sorts.

Finally, on the most basic level, blowing holes in reality will make one re-evaluate the rest of the world and what authority figures say about it. A person opened to these kinds of revelations will start to question thinks like the basic structure of economics and power in the world, AKA politics.
The key here is that this will only be the case if the paranormal element in question is not one of the "safe" phenomena that lead to another ideology. For example, if one sees a ghost, and determines that it is a soul of the deceased, as defined in a religious tradition, there isn't a hole in the world. If one sees a Bigfoot, it can be just an ape once thought extinct, and certain scientists were wrong while a few others were right. Some facts change, maybe even a few principles of physics and cosmology, but one simply modifies their paradigm, or shifts from one more firmly into another.

But weirder things, like UFOs (especially if shorn from a nuts-and-bolts frame) or MiBs or cattle mutilations and other Keelian high strangeness, or if will, demonology without a religious or cosmological scheme for the demons, blows a hole in the world. They present an abyss of mystery and madness, and once one internalizes that, it is difficult to not examine everything else. And politics is a big word for everything else. I don't mean he-said, she-said Limbaugh Coulter CNN crap. I mean examining the basic underpinnings. Exposure to other societies, and removal from ones own, can have a similar effect, as concepts once taken for granted lose their hegemonic hold when exposed to other working realities and facts.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

The first book I read about UFOs, "Flying Saucers From Outer Space," by the late Donald E. Keyhoe,was political. He was talking to government contacts to get UFO information, asking for congressional hearings to reveal the truth. And that was way, way back in the early part of the modern UFO era.

So how do you remove politics from the equation?