Spirituality, UFOs, and the Heaven's Gate Cult

[manxman]

What are you referring to and who are you talking to? It would be more clear if you used the reply button because it automatically quotes the person you are addressing.

this, but you knew that, etiquette is not high on my priority list, just the way im made.


The behavior of UFOs suggests exploration, and exploration implies data gathering, and data gathering means taking measurements, and taking measurements means making observations and acquiring samples.


my reply...

no it doesnt in most cases, its random bright spots, or lights moving in randon ways, without purpose, thats how i dismiss most without giving them a second thought, just atmospheric plasma, in all its variations.

 

[Randall]

this, but you knew that

If I was sure I wouldn't have had to ask.

etiquette is not high on my priority list, just the way im made.

Random lights off in the distance aren't UFOs, but then again proper terminology probably isn't on your list either.

 

[manxman]

that'a boy, now we are getting there.

lets get to the 2 percent or so, that are not so easy to instantly dismiss, i still think that whatever tech is visiting this planet, has a desk-jockey, far far away.

plus if i wanna see horse's i will find em in a field some where, not my backyard, so if i want to see spacecraft, i gonna concentrate my effort's looking in space for em.

 

[TalkingMeatSuit]

The behavior of UFOs suggests exploration, and exploration implies data gathering, and data gathering means taking measurements, and taking measurements means making observations and acquiring samples. Beyond the analysis of the raw data from these activities, the rest is guesswork. We can infer that their craft require materials for construction, operation, and maintenance, and therefore acquiring resources might be a motivation. If they are a starfaring race, perhaps visitation may be a prelude to establishing an outpost or settlement. I have doubts about conquest as a motivating factor. But who can say for sure? Without more information, this is about as far as we can get and not completely fall off the edge into wild speculation and conspiracy theories.

On my less skeptical days I lean towards the possibility of reincarnation, which opens up all sorts of "falling off the edge into speculation" haha. I think that some of these people are basically "probes" of sorts having a human life. If consciousness persists (that's a big if) and there's intelligent life in more than one sport in the universe, why not? A very tiny number probably are just straight up physical data gathering.

Then again, it could all be part of "the magic of reality" and there's nothing outside the complexities of our physical brains, and UFO's could very well all be advanced government craft because the lightspeed barrier truly does prevent interstellar visitation.

So many clues, so little solid proof. Don't know why I like this field so much when it can be so frustrating at times... Just wish I knew the truth regardless of how right or wrong I am!

 

[Randall]

On my less skeptical days I lean towards the possibility of reincarnation, which opens up all sorts of "falling off the edge into speculation" haha.

OK, I'm not going to say any words that could get me into trouble .

I think that some of these people are basically "probes" of sorts having a human life. If consciousness persists (that's a big if) and there's intelligent life in more than one sport in the universe, why not?

More than one sport? If you mean "more than one spot" then I'd have to agree. However if you mean "sport", then I'm skeptical.

A very tiny number probably are just straight up physical data gathering.

And the rest are just doing what? Sightseeing? Maybe taking in a good movie?

Then again, it could all be part of "the magic of reality" and there's nothing outside the complexities of our physical brains, and UFO's could very well all be advanced government craft because the lightspeed barrier truly does prevent interstellar visitation.

At only one-quarter light speed there are 33 stars that could be reached within 50 years. This is well within our own lifespan, let alone a species that can travel faster and live longer. It's amazing what wonders a little math and fact checking can do.

So many clues, so little solid proof. Don't know why I like this field so much when it can be so frustrating at times... Just wish I knew the truth regardless of how right or wrong I am!

All proof is, is enough evidence to convince someone of the truth of a claim. Some people are lax about the proof required, some are reasonable, and others, like die hard skeptics aren't reasonable. I'm among those who think the evidence for alien visitation is substantial enough to make it reasonable to believe it's true. But then again, not everyone is reasonable .

 

[Burnt State]

We need a list like that for the more important question. What is their purpose? What function does the UFO phenomenon provide whatever system is responsible for them? In short, what are they doing here?

Here is a start:
You could repeat the following under two major headings:
Altruistic motivations
Selfish motivations

• Exploration for
  • Exploitation of resources
  • Colonization
  • Cultural evangelism
• Implementation or Monitoring of
  • Ongoing scientific program
  • Ongoing commercial program

I need this list to be expanded, even though I'm not sure in which directions. I feel that beyond cultural evangelism, as there are so few good contactee cases that are enthralling hardly anyone these days, I wonder if we could be the art project?

The infrequency of contact, and the variety of alien species reported, make me feel that the monitoring aspects are almost insincere, or that these theatrical machinations are for some unknown purpose, but are often staged as scientific endeavors.

Some cases are just so surreal that I think we're some kind of tourist destination, a solar freak show of sorts where this sudden appearances, galactic pranks and brief encounters are just a quick midway ride, or tourist trap pit stop - you know, "While you're traveling out in that galactic spiral arm don't forget to stop off at earth. The inhabitants are a real boot!" says the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, 3rd edition.

 

[trainedobserver]

There is also the possibility that they have always co-existed with in some manner, yet not "mixing" with us to the degree that they are a separate terrestrial civilization or civilizations living deep in the earth or oceans. There main "purpose" being one of maintaining secrecy and isolation. That would belong under "selfish motivations." Which I honestly think is the only place to look for any reason or purpose behind any "manufactured" component of the phenomenon that exists. That is to say, I don't think the "space brothers" or whatever would be here to help us out.

 

[Burnt State]

Well they certainly haven't left any easter eggs for us to find, but then we don't seem to get coal in the stockings either. It's the utter indifference that's been shown in most instances of witness reports that makes that sense of selfishness something akin to humans walking onto ant highways and not caring. The difference is that, while we kill a lot of ants, their brand of indifference seems to be tempered with care and compassion simultaneously. It boggles my wee brain.

 

[TalkingMeatSuit]

OK, I'm not going to say any words that could get me into trouble .

It's just an area that I've explored personally, and a mostly unprovable opinion that I lean towards sometimes (although some cases are pretty impressive). If that's something worth gettin' on about, then sue me :-P

More than one sport? If you mean "more than one spot" then I'd have to agree. However if you mean "sport", then I'm skeptical.

No no you have it right, my chief topic of interest is interspecies olympics!

And the rest are just doing what? Sightseeing? Maybe taking in a good movie?

Again, just further hypothesizing (not even theorizing) with the aforementioned in mind. Was basically saying that a large number of these abductions could be pre-arranged for the purpose of data gathering, which would make the number of instances of random ET's showing up to collect samples smaller. Again, I'm not claiming any evidence or adherence, just throwing another idea out there and expressed it poorly.

At only one-quarter light speed there are 33 stars that could be reached within 50 years. This is well within our own lifespan, let alone a species that can travel faster and live longer. It's amazing what wonders a little math and fact checking can do.

This involves a number of unprovable assumptions on your part too, which is fine because it's good food for thought. IF these beings have significantly longer lifespans (or just don't mind dying), significantly advanced technology, and exist in systems neighboring our own it could be happening, who knows? See, it's fun to try on different ideas like a pair of pants, then discard what doesn't make sense to you personally until/if we have confirmation on anything currently lumped into esoterica.

All proof is, is enough evidence to convince someone of the truth of a claim. Some people are lax about the proof required, some are reasonable, and others, like die hard skeptics aren't reasonable. I'm among those who think the evidence for alien visitation is substantial enough to make it reasonable to believe it's true. But then again, not everyone is reasonable .

Seems quite likely to me as well, not even disagreeing with you. Just playing devil's advocate to the devil's advocate...

 

[Jeff Davis]

There is also the possibility that they have always co-existed with in some manner, yet not "mixing" with us to the degree that they are a separate terrestrial civilization or civilizations living deep in the earth or oceans. There main "purpose" being one of maintaining secrecy and isolation. That would belong under "selfish motivations." Which I honestly think is the only place to look for any reason or purpose behind any "manufactured" component of the phenomenon that exists. That is to say, I don't think the "space brothers" or whatever would be here to help us out.

If we look to nature we can often times find parallels with respect to the progressive nature of our human awareness and understanding. There is no question that mankind's orientation as an environmentally relevant species has radically altered due to our technological advancements. We can artificially adapt to numerous extended environmental considerations (oceans/space/air/etc.) in which we in no way contain any natural adaption or specialization for apart from the universal survival mechanism that is our ability to gauge such environmental extensions in accord with our own sentience.

It may be such, that when considering a non human intelligence factor with respect to Ufos, that said factor might be using their own technologically enabled extended adaptability from their native extra environmental status to our own. Much like we would utilize a submarine to gain an advantage to an environment that we would otherwise have no natural ability to dwell within and access.

Within nature we observe what is commonly referred to as a hierarchical food chain. Food chains often contain environmental overlaps with respect to natural survival orientations and depictions. For instance we witness birds that prey upon fish, and we witness fish that prey upon insects, etc. So in this sense we know that extra environmental access is a progressive development common to the survival process.

Does this mean that Ufos are preying on us? I don't really think so, but I guess that it is possible considering some of the previously considered parallels. The point however, is that within nature, we assuredly can and do witness the interconnectedness that species from differing environmental orientations demonstrate via their survival dependencies on one another. This is what compels me to consider more so integral and immediate environmental origins for Ufos within a bigger environmental picture than what our present understandings afford us.

 

[stonehart]

UFOs and the spirituality of self-deception and self-aggrandisement. The ultimate "ascension" of the fantasy-prone and easily hoodwinked.

Thanks for this post.

Cant believe it is three pages in and I have only just noticed this thread

 

[trainedobserver]

I've tried to clean the thing up ...

UFOs are either ...*

• Material objects, and are either …
  • Artificial, and are either …
    • Made by human beings ….
      • On the earth …
        • At the present time--anthropogenic hypothesis.
        • In the far future--time travel hypothesis.
      • Or somewhere else--intra-terrestrial hypothesis.
    • Or made by nonhuman beings …
      • On the earth--cryptoterrestrial hypothesis.
      • Or somewhere else--extraterrestrial hypothesis.
  • Or natural, and are either …
    • Living things--zoological hypothesis.
    • Nonliving natural phenomena--geophysical hypothesis.
• Or apparitions, and are either …
  • Objectively real, and are either...
    • Best understood via Christian theology--demonic hypothesis.
    • Or best understood via alternative faiths--ascended masters hypothesis.
    • Or best understood outside either option--ultra-terrestrial hypothesis.
  • Or only subjectively real, and are either …
  • Produced by the nervous system--neurological hypothesis.
  • Or produced by perceptual and psychological factors--null hypothesis.

*Table 2, pg 151, The UFO Phenomena: Fact, Fantasy, and Disinformation. John Micheal Greer, 2009.


UFOs purposes are either …*

• Exploration for ...
  • Exploitation of resources.
  • Colonization.
  • Cultural evangelism.
    • Altruistic motivation--ascended masters hypothesis.
    • Non-altruistic motivation--imperialist hypothesis.
• Clandestine Implementation or Monitoring of ...
  • Ongoing scientific program.
  • Ongoing commercial program for ...
    • Development of a product.
    • Tourism--human zoo hypothesis.
    • Espionage.
  • Ongoing military program for ...
    • Development of weapons or social/mind control mechanisms.
    • Espionage.
• None, they are purposeless

*RP 2013

 

[stonehart]

I've tried to clean the thing up ...

UFOs are either ...*

• Material objects, and are either …
  • Artificial, and are either …
    • Made by human beings ….
      • On the earth …
        • At the present time--anthropogenic hypothesis.
        • In the far future--time travel hypothesis.
      • Or somewhere else--intra-terrestrial hypothesis.
    • Or made by nonhuman beings …
      • On the earth--cryptoterrestrial hypothesis.
      • Or somewhere else--extraterrestrial hypothesis.
  • Or natural, and are either …
    • Living things--zoological hypothesis.
    • Nonliving natural phenomena--geophysical hypothesis.
• Or apparitions, and are either …
  • Objectively real, and are either...
    • Best understood via Christian theology--demonic hypothesis.
    • Or best understood via alternative faiths--ascended masters hypothesis.
    • Or best understood outside either option--ultra-terrestrial hypothesis.
  • Or only subjectively real, and are either …
  • Produced by the nervous system--neurological hypothesis.
  • Or produced by perceptual and psychological factors--null hypothesis.

*Table 2, pg 151, The UFO Phenomena: Fact, Fantasy, and Disinformation. John Micheal Greer, 2009.


UFOs main purpose are either …*

• Exploration for ...
  • Exploitation of resources.
  • Colonization.
  • Cultural evangelism.
    • Altruistic motivation--ascended masters hypothesis.
    • Non-altruistic motivation--imperialist hypothesis.
• Clandestine Implementation or Monitoring of ...
  • Ongoing scientific program.
  • Ongoing commercial program for the ...
    • Development of a product.
    • Tourism--human zoo hypothesis.
    • Espionage.
  • Ongoing military program for the ...
    • Development of weapons or social/mind control mechanisms.
    • Espionage.
• None, they are purposeless

*RP 2013

Very cool post

 

[Randall]

I've tried to clean the thing up ...
UFOs are either ...

The list of theories and beliefs you posted assumes that UFO are ( or could be ) any number of things in your list. However the historical evidence doesn't support that idea. The word UFO was created as a specific reference to what were at the time called flying saucers, which many people including witnesses, officials, and the general population believed were alien craft. It was never intended to be as general or vague as the numerous items your list suggests, and therefore your list, although well intentioned actually clouds the issue. Fortunately, assuming you wanted a fix, you could introduce your list something like this:

"There are a number of theories and beliefs associated with the nature and purpose of the objects described in UFO reports. They include: ... "
​

The above avoids the suggestion that UFOs actually are or could be any one of the things on your list, while at the same time introducing us to the various theories and beliefs that are part of ufology in general.

 

[Randall]

Very cool post

It shows effort. But there are some problems with it. Let's see how they are handled.

 

[trainedobserver]

Randal,

Y0ur borish single mindedness is incredibly off putting. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the past. I really don't give a damn about what you think about this subject or any other for that matter. It is not enjoyable to engage you in conversation and I don't care to do so any longer. I'm just ignoring you from here on out.

 

[stonehart]

Randal,

Y0ur borish single mindedness is incredibly off putting. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the past. I really don't give a damn about what you think about this subject or any other for that matter. It is not enjoyable to engage you in conversation and I don't care to so any longer. I'm just ignoring you from here on out.

guess that is blunt and to the point.

 

[Randall]

guess that is blunt and to the point.

Well, that's some class handling of the issue. I never could figure out his problem. No response to the actual point made, just personal criticism. He obviously wants to get into the details, but arbitrarily chooses to dismiss the most relevant detail of all at the start. Perhaps it's better that puts me on ignore. That way I can at least provide commentary without the negative waves ...

 

[Randall]

Randal,
Y0ur borish single mindedness is incredibly off putting ... bla bla bla

Merry Christmas to you too !

 

[trainedobserver]

Well, that's some class handling of the issue. I never could figure out his problem. No response to the actual point made, just personal criticism. He obviously wants to get into the details, but arbitrarily chooses to dismiss the most relevant detail of all at the start.

Randal,
You are a true believer. There is no arguing with a true believer. I've addressed all of your points too many times to count. I'm not going to agree with you that you have to identify something as an alien craft before you can call it a UFO. I've explained to you why numerous times. Your inability to accept this is disturbing. I'd rather not have to deal with the same issue endlessly. Surely you can understand that. Or maybe you can't and that is the problem.