Spirituality, UFOs, and the Heaven's Gate Cult

[Vance]

To paraphrase Ken Thomas " UFOs are a gateway drug".

 

[stonehart]

Randal,
I'm not going to agree with you that you have to identify something as an alien craft before you can call it a UFO.

Sorry to butt in here but I agree why would you have to do that? by definition a UFO is exactly that unidentified.. if we knew it was alien it would not be a UFO because we know what it is... sorry but that is all just to confusing

 

[Muadib]

Sorry to butt in here but I agree why would you have to do that? by definition a UFO is exactly that unidentified.. if we knew it was alien it would not be a UFO because we know what it is... sorry but that is all just to confusing

I agree, though when Randall explains his position I think it makes a certain kind of sense, my problem is that there is far too much baggage that comes along with the word alien, people immediately start thinking of little grey guys with big eyes when it could be any number of other things or a combination of things, most of which would fall under the heading of alien, as in alien to us and our civilization, but unfortunately that's not what most people think when they hear the word alien. Nonnative or exotic craft might be a better fit and would also be more inclusive of some of the other ideas about UFO's besides just extraterrestrial spacecraft. Just my two cents.

 

[trainedobserver]

Sorry to butt in here but I agree why would you have to do that? by definition a UFO is exactly that unidentified.. if we knew it was alien it would not be a UFO because we know what it is... sorry but that is all just to confusing

I agree, though when Randall explains his position I think it makes a certain kind of sense, my problem is that there is far too much baggage that comes along with the word alien, people immediately start thinking of little grey guys with big eyes when it could be any number of other things or a combination of things, most of which would fall under the heading of alien, as in alien to us and our civilization, but unfortunately that's not what most people think when they hear the word alien.

Two salient points. Unfortunately they've been made several times before to no avail.

It follows a pattern, as someone might say. An individual has a "close encounter" and they become convinced in the reality of "alien visitation. In "Ufology's" case the experience has caused him to create a UFO organization, a website, and a dogged determination to get people to use the term UFO only when they are talking about something they understand to be an "alien craft." I don't think I'm misrepresenting the situation there. Given everything I know and my experience with others of similar experience, conversation can be a frustrating circle. UFO are aliens all the way down, so to speak.

The belief that the earth is being visited by alien beings is in fact a totally different discussion from the issue about the use of acronym UFO. It is also completely different than the argument that a product of terrestrial technology is distinguishable from an alien UFO or flying saucer.
However, everything must be funneled into the UFO=alien craft basket according to Randal to the point where discussion about it has become an incredibly unpleasant exercise.

To paraphrase Ken Thomas " UFOs are a gateway drug".

I was just thinking I might need to kick the habit.

 

[Randall]

Randal,
You are a true believer. There is no arguing with a true believer. I've addressed all of your points too many times to count. I'm not going to agree with you that you have to identify something as an alien craft before you can call it a UFO. I've explained to you why numerous times. Your inability to accept this is disturbing. I'd rather not have to deal with the same issue endlessly. Surely you can understand that. Or maybe you can't and that is the problem.

And here I thought you were going to start ignoring me. What changed your mind?

 

[Randall]

Sorry to butt in here but I agree why would you have to do that? by definition a UFO is exactly that unidentified.. if we knew it was alien it would not be a UFO because we know what it is... sorry but that is all just to confusing

I'm the first to agree with you that on the surface, what you're saying makes a certain amount of sense, and that it can be confusing, which is why I took so much time to investigate the history and usage of the word UFO in order to arrive at the conclusion I have. Therefore contrary to @trainedobserver's intimations, my analysis of the word isn't based on mere personal or unsupported opinion, so if you have a specific question or objection that is not addressed in the article please feel free to discuss it with me. I'm certainly open to considering evidence, applying critical thinking, and if warranted by that process, update my present position. I am confident that after a level headed discussion, you will no longer be confused about it and will see how that definition actually reduces confusion considerably.

 

[Randall]

Two salient points. Unfortunately they've been made several times before to no avail.

It follows a pattern, as someone might say. An individual has a "close encounter" and they become convinced in the reality of "alien visitation. In "Ufology's" case the experience has caused him to create a UFO organization, a website, and a dogged determination to get people to use the term UFO only when they are talking about something they understand to be an "alien craft." I don't think I'm misrepresenting the situation there. Given everything I know and my experience with others of similar experience, conversation can be a frustrating circle. UFO are aliens all the way down, so to speak.

I actually created my first UFO interest group in elementary school after hearing about a sighting by my older brother and his wife. I didn't have my own sighting until years later. On the issue of getting people to use the word UFO correctly, my approach isn't quite like you're suggesting above. You are correct that I don't believe it's accurate to call vague lights off in the distance, or any number of other things that are simply unidentified, UFOs. The history and usage simply don't support that position, and therefore why should we insist that it's OK?

However there are certain other times when we're not referring specifically to alien craft when it's OK to use the word UFO. The most common is when we're referring to a UFO report. When we're referring to a UFO report we're not assuming that the object which is reported is an alien craft, but we should be able to assume that the person who reported it had reason to believe it was. Upon further investigation, the object may turn out to be something else.

The belief that the earth is being visited by alien beings is in fact a totally different discussion from the issue about the use of acronym UFO. It is also completely different than the argument that a product of terrestrial technology is distinguishable from an alien UFO or flying saucer.
However, everything must be funneled into the UFO=alien craft basket according to Randal to the point where discussion about it has become an incredibly unpleasant exercise.

Agreed. I don't find it fun being criticized personally for the work and effort I put into a well formed position. I think it is something that we should be able to discuss rationally based on the evidence and the reasons.

I was just thinking I might need to kick the habit.

You may have that luxury, but the more I see the word misused and exploited by skeptics, the more I think it's important to maintain a well supported position rather than cave in to personal criticism. I simply can't form a logical evidence based analysis on that, no matter how uncomfortable it may be. To make progress, the issue must be engaged on an intellectual level.