Substrate-independent minds

[mike]

We also believe that enhancing the mind, initially through BCI, later through total access, will provide the greatest leap in our evolution.

Carboncopies: Why Substrate-Independent Minds? - carboncopies project

Substrate-Independent Minds - carboncopies project

 

[trainedobserver]

But we do it all the time, reading glasses and contact lenses just a single example

I dont understand why imperfection and immutable would be desirable

From the moment we started shaping tools, the tools have been shaping us

My problems with this are undoubtedly linked to my own personal angst of being. Something that I cannot help but think is universal.

 

[mike]

An unsubstantiated worry about not being able to change with adequate caution and tentativeness is not sufficient to argue against the possibility. Until there is further cause to give substance to the specifics of these separation concerns, they express something like the uneasiness that the gods of “purpose” might strike back if we dare to change the focus in terms of which thing is being perpetuated: genes vs. minds.

Therein lies the specter of the old “don’t tamper with nature” argument — and yet all progress is a function of doing exactly that. Uneasiness about re-purposing that which has emerged from gene survival (namely, our minds, our perception, our sense of personal identity and self-awareness) is not in itself a practical argument against the possibility of re-instantiating a human mind on different hardware

Pattern survival versus gene survival | KurzweilAI

 

[mike]

My problems with this are undoubtedly linked to my own personal angst of being. Something that I cannot help but think is universal.

Then i guess the best you can hope for is that you will be given the choice......
But the trend isnt a good one, you were given no choice about being born

 

[mike]

Randal Koene on Singularity 1 on 1: Mind Uploading is not Science Fiction

Randal Koene on Singularity 1 on 1: Mind Uploading is not Science Fiction

SIM Video Podcast Interview with Dr. Randal A. Koene - carboncopies project

Are replicas that do work for us science fiction?
No. Dr. Koene clarifies that it is not SciFi in the way in which that often implies something highly improbably or extremely distant. These are scientific projects and not ambitions that will take hundreds of years to be accomplished. There is no magical ingredient that we need to wait for.

 

[tyder001]

Interesting conversation especially as T.O. and Mike engage in it. I can see one post and think Wow, Trained nailed what I was thinking. Then Mike comes back and I think "Wow, I can relate to that. The thing is I honestly don't know what "we" are. I think that Consciousness makes use of matter and not the other way around. So, once we get past the 19th century view of physics and actually start to consider consciousness as a separate and real manifestation of being then there is no limit to what we might be able to do in the future. On the other hand if the old "brain produces being" model is correct then I'm afraid that Trained is right and we are simply doomed to the few short years we have and the roll of the dice in the ole sperm bank. But, as I said I'm enjoying the conversation more as a lurker in this case.

 

[trainedobserver]

On the other hand if the old "brain produces being" model is correct then I'm afraid that Trained is right and we are simply doomed to the few short years we have and the roll of the dice in the ole sperm bank.

Actually whatever model of consciousness you want to ascribe to is completely irrelevant to my problems with trans-humanism.

 

[tyder001]

Oh, Ok, A'h guess I didn't unnerstand all yer points.

 

[tyder001]

Well, that's not really true T.O. I think I do understand what you are saying when I really think about it. Anyway, I'm just gonna hang up and listen on this one for a little while. I do lean toward the points you have made. But, Mike has certainly done his home work on this subject. I'm a little out of my depth here. I have a knee jerk reaction but haven't honestly given a lot of deep thought to it. I still find it "out there" but many things are "out there" until their not.

 

[Kim323]

Now tyder, don't you dare go down for the count here. Hey, you ain't even been hit on the chin. Word games, my friend, you're letting yourself be confused by the seeming flurry of blows, but none of them have hit you, much less taken you down. Hang on to your humanity, don't be turned into a cyborg or machine man. That stuff is far, far into the distant future, if at all. The premise to which you are succumbing is based on the following faulty logic, if you go back and read the progress of the thread:

1. Stephen Cave's book is a very lightweight endeavor. I read it and reviewed it here. Poor history and poorer science.

2. Berger's experiment, which I did a lot of research on, is hardly the harbinger of brain implants as premised here. I commented on his experiment here. I hope it provides a bit of help to researchers who are working on some horrific neurological diseases and conditions, but it doesn't even remotely speak to what is expressed so cavalierly in this thread.

3. Do not, tyder, check yourself into berger's lab at USC! While his credentials are indeed impressive, you will be taught how to order your sustenance by pushing levers, then have that very learning erased with chemicals designed to screw up the communication network of your brain that tens and tens of thousands of years of evolution have bequeathed to you, then have your skull opened for the implantation of the treasured IMPLANT, WHICH WILL:

4. RETURN TO YOU, MAYBE AND VERY, VERY HOPEFULLY,

5. YOUR MEMORY OF HOW TO WORK THOSE LEVERS!

I don't buy it. Kim

 

[mike]

As ive said before there are always going to be the blinkered idiots, wallowing in their pompus dellusions of grandeur who will state high speed rail will never work, heavier than air flight will never work, and telephones will never replace the telegraph.
All of these self proclaimed "expert opinions" were smashed on the rocks of history, to sink back beneath the waves of mediocrity that spawned them

The real experts are saying this isnt that far away

By 2040 you will be able to upload your brain...

...or at least that's what Ray Kurzweil thinks

He has received nineteen honorary Doctorates and honors from three U.S. presidents.

According to Ian Pearson, a British futurist, death will be a thing of the past by 2050.

Pearson is one of many futurists, cybernetic experts and artificial intelligence researchers whose thoughts are converging on the same basic idea: Why not upload everything that's in the brain—everything that makes a person who they are—into a computer and then download it again into a new body? Doing such a thing would make the individual theoretically immortal.

A model that replicates the functions of the human brain is feasible in 10 years according to neuroscientist Professor Henry Markram of the Brain Mind Institute in Switzerland. ‘I absolutely believe it is technically and biologically possible.

The secret world of dreams could soon be cracked open. Innovative neuroscientists have already begun to figure out the thoughts of awake people – now, a team reckon they can use similar methods to tap into dreams.
To find out whether dreams could be read in the same way as waking thoughts, Michael Czisch and Martin Dresler at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry in Munich, Germany, and their colleagues turned an array of brain-monitoring technology on lucid dreamers.

And for Koene it is very much "you", there being a "continuity of self" in the same way that "the person you are today is still the same person you were when you were age five".​

"This isn't science fiction, either, this is closer to science fact," he argues.​

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Study of the Day: Soon, You May Download New Skills to Your Brain - Hans Villarica - Health - The Atlantic​

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Note the operative word SOON in the article.​

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Just as they said heavier than air planes will never fly, and telephones will never be replace the telegraph, Lofty self ordained experts will say this stuff will never happen.​

​

But the real experts the professors, doctors ,scientists are saying its sooner than you might think.​

 

[tyder001]

I don't buy it either. But, I can and often do hold contradicting views within my skope of arguments. It keeps me sharp. Never fear, at my age and with my life experience I am not easy to "sway." People often confuse my natural "southern" politeness with weakness for some reason. I assure you that would be a mistake. I just don't waste a lot of my breathing air getting into pissing contest on the internet. My worldview is hard won and not something that I take a poll every morning to prove or take a vote on. I did venture a little out of my comfort zone on a different post today. But, for the most part I keep my most intimate thoughts to myself and to my source. Anyway, no I don't think we are going to be cyborgs. Not now and not ever. But, I do think it's brave new world and who knows what amazing things the future holds. I am a very holistic person so I think the mind (spirit) of man is limitless.

 

[mike]

I think the mind (spirit) of man is limitless.

So you'd rather believe in a supernatural mechanism for "limitless spirit"
What holds it up, what powers it, where does it reside after the golf ball sized chunk of brain tissue thats supporting the neurons and dendrites is dead and cold ?

SCIENTIST Stephen Hawking has dismissed heaven as a “fairy story for people afraid of the dark”.

And he insisted that, rather than advance to an afterlife, people’s brains switch off like “broken-down computers” when they die.

Your brain is a biological mechanism, nothing more.

Can you describe the specifications of this supernatural mechanism that will support "you" when your brain is cold and dead, the neurons no longer firing ? How is the data transmitted and where does it go ?, whats the transport medium the ether ?

Personally i'll put my faith in a proven technological mechanism that emulates the mechanism i currently use, over some airy fairy supernatural mechanism, a technological mechanism which while still in its developmental infancy, can at least be proven to exist and function as predicted, over a supernatural mechanism for which there is no proof whatsoever

 

[tyder001]

Oh lord Mike. I don't rush to Stephen Hawking as my authority. Here's a scoop for ya. The brain has NOT been shown to produce something that is limitless and weightless and self aware. It is a great receiver and a great conductor but not a first cause. At least the jury is still out. Actually, I think we might indeed be able to do what you are talking about. It' s not an absolute impossibilty. But, it's also not a done deal either. Yes, Mike I do have more confidence in Rupert Sheldrake and Brian Josephson and others than I do in Stephen Hawking or even "gasp" Richard Dawkins. But, I was actually trying to give you your due in this discussion. But, I give up! You think you are just a meat bot? Fine, no problem. You are welcome to it. But, I will tell you this. We will not see what you are talking about in your lifetime. The science just isn't there. Will it be? I"m open minded enough to say I don't know. But, we are waaaay far away from mapping the brain or having a working model of what the mind of man is actually made up of. Still, You seem to feel you are onto something big. So, that's fine. I'll wait and see and if you are right I'll salute you. But, I really don't think you are. But, that's what makes the world go round. Everybody has an opinion and as long as they are civil I'll fight for their right to express it.

 

[tyder001]

 

[Kim323]

Hey, tyder, just writing facetiously, as you no doubt surmised! I'm finding that's the best way, writing tongue in cheek, like my post above. I would have used a smile face, but with this iPad, I just can't locate the "faces bank"! Kim

 

[Kim323]

Great video, tyder! Kim

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I just wonder, so what if we're meat bots? Does that change who you really are? I think we are biological being whose feelings are not because of some sort of magic, but because of chemistry. Who cares!? I still worry about stuff, I still love my family, I still get excited about lots of stuff. Do you think you value life more than I do because you believe in a higher power and I don't really care? That's pretty insulting.

 

[mike]

Oh lord Mike. I don't rush to Stephen Hawking as my authority. Here's a scoop for ya. The brain has NOT been shown to produce something that is limitless and weightless and self aware. It is a great receiver and a great conductor but not a first cause. At least the jury is still out. Actually, I think we might indeed be able to do what you are talking about. It' s not an absolute impossibilty. But, it's also not a done deal either. Yes, Mike I do have more confidence in Rupert Sheldrake and Brian Josephson and others than I do in Stephen Hawking or even "gasp" Richard Dawkins. But, I was actually trying to give you your due in this discussion. But, I give up! You think you are just a meat bot? Fine, no problem. You are welcome to it. But, I will tell you this. We will not see what you are talking about in your lifetime. The science just isn't there. Will it be? I"m open minded enough to say I don't know. But, we are waaaay far away from mapping the brain or having a working model of what the mind of man is actually made up of. Still, You seem to feel you are onto something big. So, that's fine. I'll wait and see and if you are right I'll salute you. But, I really don't think you are. But, that's what makes the world go round. Everybody has an opinion and as long as they are civil I'll fight for their right to express it.

And yet all the scientists i quote say it wont be that far away, so what makes your opinion its not, a better guess than theirs ?
Thats what i find so astounding is you think its valid to contradict the real experts and yet offer not a shred of data or evidence to back the claim its not going to happen in your lifetime.

Science can show we are indeed meat bots

Many physicians request additional, confirmatory tests before pronouncing brain death. The two most common are the electroencephalogram (EEG) and the cerebral blood flow (CBF) study.
The EEG measures brain voltage in microvolts. It is so sensitive that the static electricity in a person's clothes will give a squiggle on the EEG (a false positive). All positive responses suggest brain function. The patient in the deepest coma will show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not.

Your brain runs just like a computer on electricity, when it stops flowing you are gone.....
Brain dead.... kaput ,expired

Dendrites (from Greek δένδρον déndron, “tree”) are the branched projections of a neuron that act to conduct the electrochemical stimulation received from other neural cells to the cell body, or soma, of the neuron from which the dendrites project. Electrical stimulation is transmitted onto dendrites by upstream neurons via synapses which are located at various points throughout the dendritic arbor. Dendrites play a critical role in integrating these synaptic inputs and in determining the extent to which action potentials are produced by the neuron. Recent research has also found that dendrites can support action potentials and release neurotransmitters, a property that was originally believed to be specific to axons.

The mechanism is well understood, which is why hawking can use the computer analogy.
Just like computer, no voltage, no power and its no function.

 

[tyder001]

Angel, if you are insulted then you are choosing to be insulted. It's funny how you get insulted when it's you and your heros and little worldview that are questioned. You even took up for Islam a while back and they would cheerfully cut off your head (at least their fundis would) But, when it's a world view you don't like or don't believe in then all of a sudden you are open minded and think things are funny. Don't cha think John Cleese is funny? I think he's brilliant.