Substrate-independent minds

[tyder001]

Good points and well taken. I also agree that "truth" is not changed by what you or I believe about it. I find many of your points to be well made. I also find some of them to be "not as well made." But, then again that is what makes us individuals and you have (from what little I can tell from an internet forum) a hard won worldview. As do I.

 

[trainedobserver]

I also find some of them to be "not as well made."

What are you talking about Steve?

 

[tyder001]

Although to another part of your point. I think everybody on here has a "need" of some kind. Maybe to validate themselves. Maybe to find like minded people. Maybe to research and learn. Maybe just to see if there is anything that might change or alter an opinion either they or someone else holds. Anyway, when you put it out there on a public forum then you open it up for debate. So, to get pissy and curse people out for having a different opinion is kind of silly really. Anyway, I do understand and agree to an extent what you are saying.

 

[tyder001]

What are you talking about Steve?

That's what she said.

Oh nothing really. I just meant that sometime you say something and I think "Yeah, that's well put." Other times you say something and I think "No way, that's not very likely." Just the normal give and take of human interaction. I didn't mean any hidden meaning or dig.

 

[tyder001]

I find many of your points to be well made.

By the way mister, why didn't this sentence bother you or cause you ask what I meant? Hmmm, Mr. Smarty pants?

 

[trainedobserver]

So, to get pissy and curse people out for having a different opinion is kind of silly really.

Are you trying to insinuate that I have done this to anyone Steve? Why would you drop that sentence in the middle of a reply to me?

Could it be that your responses like that are not meant to further the discussion in any way other than emotionally?

 

[tyder001]

No, Rick. I was absolutely not talking about you. I told you that. Sheeesh, I give up. But, for the record NO! I wasn't being snarky to you. If I had a personal problem with you I would PM you.

 

[trainedobserver]

No, Rick. I was absolutely not talking about you. I told you that. Sheeesh, I give up. But, for the record NO! I wasn't being snarky to you. If I had a personal problem with you I would PM you.

I'm sure you get my point. Responding to threads in a way that is calculated to create an emotional response while complaining about the emotions they generate seems pretty counterproductive to me unless all you are after is stir up trouble rather than an adult discussion. It seems many threads are just that, a discussion interrupted by the injection of an emotional argument over vague world-views that are seldom articulated in any understandable fashion.

 

[mike]

Gotta love the name of this project.....................

A computer chip implanted behind the eye that could record a person’s every lifetime thought and sensation is to be developed by British scientists.​

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“This is the end of death,” said Dr. Chris Winter, of British Telecom’s artificial life team. He predicted that within three decades it would be possible to relive other people’s lives by playing back their experiences on a computer. “By combining this information with a record of the person’s genes, we could recreate a person physically, emotionally and spiritually.”​

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Dr. Winter’s team of eight scientists at BT’s Martlesham Heath Laboratories near Ipswich calls the chip the ‘Soul Catcher.’ ​

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‘Soul Catcher’ Brain Computer Chip Due… | Cyberbrain ​

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British Telecom would not divulge how much money it is investing in the project, but Dr. Winter said it was taking ‘Soul Catcher 2025′ very seriously. He admitted that there were profound ethical considerations, but emphasized that BT was embarking on this line of research to enable it to remain at the forefront of communications technology.​

“An implanted chip would be like an aircraft’s black box and would enhance communications beyond current concepts,” he said. “For example, police would be able to use it to relive an attack, rape, or murder from the victim’s viewpoint to help catch the criminal.”​

Other applications would be less useful but more frightening. “I could even play back the smells, sounds, and sights of my holiday to my friends,” Dr. Winter said.​

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[mike]

Of artificial telepathy, Ian comments, "Nothing in physics clearly opposes such a development so it may well happen." Not only will our generation experience artificial telepathy, but numerous other benefits of science. "Timescales are uncertain but if you are at school now, by the time you retire you will be probably be able to back up your mind on a computer and achieve effective immortaility among many other benefits

Certainly it is not unrealistic, and we can imagine that many religions will have strong objections about artificial telepathy, and the promise of immortality that comes with it. Not only would there be religious objections, but moral objections. There will be those who cry out against artificial telepathy using brain implants – saying that we are losing our humanity, and becoming machines. This is not true. We would be in control of our brain implants as much as we are in control of our computers; they are tools to be used, not malevolent intelligences.
They would say that we would lose our individuality and society would become homogenised. As for losing our individuality, on the contrary, we are expanding it. There is a difference between homogenisation and communication, and it is easy to mistake understanding and empathy for the former. We have nothing to lose, but everything to gain with artificial telepathy, for what greater beauty is there than to be able to touch another soul?

The March of Science, a blessing or curse, and Artificial Telepathy

 

[pong]

Is ET post-biological?
Intelligent ETs undoubtedly come in as many forms as you can imagine, biological and not. The ones who do not dream, do not laugh and do not wish to know more about their creator can probably not experience joy. Does any intelligent "life form" want to exist without joy? Mr. Data was forever seeking it.

 

[mike]

As i recall he eventually got an emotion chip.

he also got courtesy of the Borg biological sensory data via a "skin"

Scientists in biotechnology and genetic engineering can now both manipulate cell membranes and receive real-time feedback on those cellular tests. The Micro-electroporation chip (also known as Bionic chip) was developed by Yong Huang of Bioelectronic Micro Systems Inc., Albany, Calif., and Boris Rubinsky from the Dept. of Mechanical Engineering at the Univ. of California, Berkely. The system uses advanced silicon microfabrication, involving a live cell in its circuitry, to improve key processes like electroporation by generating real-time control and feedback over procedures at the single cell …

And artificial skin is already science fact

Artificial skin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Artificial skin can refer to skin grown in a laboratory that can be used as skin replacement for people who have suffered skin trauma such as severe burns or skin diseases. Alternatively, it can also refer to skin synthetically produced for other purposes.
A form of “artificial skin” has been demonstrated which is created out of flexible semiconductor materials that can sense touch. The artificial skin is anticipated to augment robotics in conducting rudimentary jobs that would be considered delicate and require “touch”. It is also expected that the technology can be further advanced to be used on prosthetic limbs to restore a sense of touch.

Then we have neuromorphic microchips

http://www.stanford.edu/group/brainsinsilicon/pdf/05_journ_SciAm_NeurmorphChips.pdf

Now a small but innovative community of engineers is making significant progress in copying neuronal organization and function. Researchers speak of having “morphed” the structure of neural connections into silicon circuits, creating neuromorphic microchips.

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Efficient operation, I realized, comes from the degree to which the hardware is customized for the task at hand. Conventional computers do not allow such adjustments; the software is tailored instead. Today’s computers use a few generalpurpose tools for every job; software merely changes the order in which the tools are used.​

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In contrast, customizing the hardware is something the brain and neuromorphic chips have in common—they are both programmed at the level of individual connections. They adapt the tool to the specifi c job. But how does the brain customize itself? If we could translate that mechanism into silicon—metamorphing—we could have our neuromorphic chips modify themselves in the same fashion. Thus, we would not need to painstakingly reverse-engineer the brain’s circuits. I started investigating neural development, hoping to learn more about how the body produces exactly the tools it needs.​

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Building the brain’s neural network—a trillion (1012) neurons connected by 10 quadrillion (1016) synapses—is a daunting task. Although human DNA contains the equivalent of a billion bits of information, that amount is not sufficient to specify where all those neurons should go and how they should connect. After employing its genetic information during early development, the brain customizes itself further through internal interactions among neurons and through external interactions with the world outside the body. In other words, sensory neurons wire themselves in response to sensory inputs. The overall rule that regulates this process is deceptively simple.​

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Chip fabricators today can cram a million transistors and 10 meters of wire onto a square millimeter of silicon. By the end of this decade, chip density will be just a factor of 10 shy of cortex tissue density; the cortex has 100 million synapses and three kilometers of axon per cubic millimeter. Researchers will come close to matching the cortex in terms of sheer numbers of devices, but how will they handle a billion transistors on a square centimeter of silicon? Thousands of engineers would be required to design these highdensity nanotechnology chips using standard methods. To date, a hundredfold rise in design engineers accompanied the 10,000-fold increase in the transistor count in Intel’s processors.​

In comparison, a mere doubling of the number of genes in flies to that of humans enabled evolutionary forces to construct brains with 10 million times more neurons. More sophisticated developmental processes made possible the increased complexity by elaborating on a relatively simple recipe. In the same way, morphing neural development processes instead of simply morphing neural circuitry holds great promise for handling complexity in the nanoelectronic systems of the future​

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And we dont necessarily need to reinvent the wheel here, we could just tweak the existing system​

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The line between living organisms and machines has just become a whole lot blurrier.

European researchers have developed "neuro-chips" in which living brain cells and silicon circuits are coupled together.
The achievement could one day enable the creation of sophisticated neural prostheses to treat neurological disorders or the development of organic computers that crunch numbers using living neurons.
To create the neuro-chip, researchers squeezed more than 16,000 electronic transistors and hundreds of capacitors onto a silicon chip just 1 millimeter square in size.
They used special proteins found in the brain to glue brain cells, called neurons, onto the chip

Brain Cells Fused with Computer Chip | LiveScience

Thus the Brainframe computer that stores your cloud memory backup, could be biological in nature.

 

[mike]

Now, lets see if we cant blur the lines between copy and transfer a little

Poor old uncle fred starts to lose it in his old age, doesnt remember who he is or who you and the family are .

The neurologist says the memorys are there, but the internal retreival system is broken.

They say they can fix it with a neural prosthesis,

By-pass of damaged brain region with a biomimetic device that mimics signal processing function of hippocampal neurons and circuits as envisioned by Dr. Theodore W. Berger and the Biomedical Engineering Laboratories at the University of Southern California.

Neural Prosthesis.com - CNE - USC Center for Neural Engineering



They copy the memory to a external brainframe storage device
(i must copyright the brainframe name ) and implant a WiFi "bridge".

Uncle fred is back to his old self again, as far as you can tell its "him" and more importantly as far as he can tell its "him"

Is he still uncle fred ? or a fake copy

 

[mike]

And for those who prefer paper over cut and paste

Amazon.com: Toward Replacement Parts for the Brain: Implantable Biomimetic Electronics as Neural Prostheses (Bradford Books) (9780262025775): Theodore Berger, Dennis L. Glanzman: Books

Toward Replacement Parts for the Brain

Implantable Biomimetic Electronics as Neural Prostheses
Edited by Theodore W. Berger and Dennis L. Glanzman
Published June 2005 ISBN 0-262-02577-9

The continuing development of implantable neural prostheses signals a new era in bioengineering and neuroscience research.

This collection of essays outlines current advances in research on the intracranial implantation of devices that can communicate with the brain in order to restore sensory, motor, or cognitive functions.

The contributors explore the creation of biologically realistic mathematical models of brain function, the production of microchips that incorporate those models, and the integration of microchip and brain function through neuron-silicon interfaces.

Recent developments in understanding the computational and cognitive properties of the brain and rapid advances in biomedical and computer engineering both contribute to this cutting-edge research.

 

[pong]

I've enjoyed this thread, Mike, and all your great research. This whole subject really deserves its own Paracast episode! Maybe you can help Gene and Chris find one or two experts who could be interviewed. Ray Kurzweil on The Paracast? How cool would that be . . .

 

[tyder001]

Kurzweil on the paracast would indeed be interesting. I would vote yes. Some interesting questions could be generated that's for sure.

 

[mike]

The idea that the greys are biological robots is not a new idea
Though what follows in this post is just speculation, its not presented as the "answer" just something to consider

According to Corso, they determined that the craft was a biological spaceship, functioning in conjunction with a crew of EBE's (Extraterrestrial Biological Entities). They were biological robots created through advanced genetic engineering, clones designed to withstand the extreme conditions of space travel. These EBE's were able to drive their starship through a particular neural interface, whereby they could connect with the craft, becoming an almost integrated part of it.

Nigel kerner also subscribes to the biobot idea which he expands on in his book song of the greys.

The main thrust of the book is the telling that the 'aliens' known as the 'Greys', are in point of fact some type of Robot that has been sent out throughout the universe to seek a threat to them and their creators an interesting concept but one which is still as yet debateable. Nigel extends this by saying that not only are the 'Greys' looking for 'hostiles' (so to speak) their main agenda and one which these reviewers feel is quite alluring, is the fact that the greys are on a mission not only to seek out sperm and ova from their unfortunate victims, but in reality they are in point of fact searching from us humans, the 'soul factor'. Kerner explains that as they 'the greys' were manufactured rather than being born they are on a mission to seek from us where our soul lies and essentially how they can incorporate 'our' soul into their own persona of 'being'

The Song Of The Greys



But Kerner is religious, he subscribes to the idea of a soul, and postulates that since these biobots dont have a soul, they want ours.

Of course if at any time they have allegedly said they dont have souls, that may have been a simple statement of truth. "We dont have souls" (nobody does).
If so, what then might a post biological species be looking to harvest ?

Perhaps new input would better fit the scenario.

Imagine a species that goes fully post biological, they no longer create new people via biology, since they have plenty of post biological citizens who can live virtually forever.
In vanquishing death, they do away with birth.................

Our society is entirely biological , with the pros and cons that go with it. New minds being born, old ones being lost
If the technology described in this thread at any time becomes viable, we will become a society of biological and post biological citizens, but you can go to the next level.
A society of entirely post biological citizens................


A post biological population that goes down this path (whether by action , inaction or accident) can no longer grow, its population count is static.

It loses the ability to create spontaneous intellects.

Thus if it wants new input, new experience sets it must seek out species's that still do so, and harvest this conciousness component from them.

Or even engineer and oversee a biological species to provide that resource

Its interesting when you compare what corso allegedly said all those years ago

They were biological robots created through advanced genetic engineering, clones designed to withstand the extreme conditions of space travel. These EBE's were able to drive their starship through a particular neural interface, whereby they could connect with the craft, becoming an almost integrated part of it.

With

According to Ian Pearson, a British futurist, death will be a thing of the past by 2050.

Pearson is one of many futurists, cybernetic experts and artificial intelligence researchers whose thoughts are converging on the same basic idea: Why not upload everything that's in the brain—everything that makes a person who they are—into a computer and then download it again into a new body? Doing such a thing would make the individual theoretically immortal.

We seem to be talking about the very same process

When i compare those two statements with the alleged "we are you from the future" quote thats sometimes reported.......

Then i have to ask does Dr Davies nail it when he says

"I think it very likely -in fact inevitable-that biological intelligence is only a transitory phenomenon, a fleeting phase in the evolution of intelligence in the universe."

Paul Davies -acclaimed physicist, cosmologist, and astrobiologist at Arizona State University."​

 

[tyder001]

Really interesting. I have heard some of Nigel Kerner (I've mentioned him in a post or two.) His beliefs about the Greys are chilling. However, I also agree that he is extrapolating from his own worldview. Of course I think we all do that. Either way, I have been thinking about buying his book on Amazon Kindle but they still are charging over $13 for an ebook that is a few years old. But, as I get older my eyes work better with the ereader. Sorry, off topic there.

 

[Kim323]

Like Icarus on his wings, someone is stretching his own, taking us on flights of glorious fancy into the stratosphere of the mechanical man. Icarus too, as he soared higher and yet higher in the face of his father's warnings, felt the glorious chariot of Apollo on his back, the warmth of that solar deity inspiring him to ever more ecstatic heights of altitude. Terra Firma herself, far, far below, called hopelessly, helplessly for him to at least descend to reasonableness, to, yes, experience the divine gifts of imagination, but to not forget that the ascension to which he aspired with glorious abandonment of rationality must be taken with gentle flaps of his wings, and that due diligence must be taken to properly analyze and actually read the full context of his sources. But Icarus had forgotten the basic lessons of compiling a coherent argument, taught so well to him by the teachers of his boyhood. Drunk with the wine of that machine that so easily and quickly compiled his POV, he forgot that the wax that had held actual books had been used by his father to construct those massive feathered wings that were taking him to the furtherest reaches of his speculative imagination. His mind and body rioted in the glory of his ascension, the warmth infusing him to ever higher hubristic heights. But, alas, faith in the great gods Kerner and Pearson, and failure to actually read Davies's book entitled The Eerie Silence and so to use him disastrously out of context, was soon to fail our intrepid astronaut in his journey to the heavens! Stark reality was soon to intervene. The cry of Terra Firma, her loving voice desperate with horror as she watched one of her beloved sons climb to his fate, was now unheard: "Yes, my son, the gods of Olympus don't begrudge you your humanism. They want you to advance, but, my wayward son, heed not the sultry voice of that siren Transhumanism. She is a seductive sound in your ear, but the authors and proponents of it are rarely possessive of any credentials from accredited institutions, and just call themselves futurologists to make money."...........

But Icarus persevered with ever rapid and ever longer strokes of his glued wings. Apollo, in his journey through the firmament, espied the fruitless aspirings of the wayward youth, who should have known better than to not have done his homework. Apollo watched with some compassion, but knew what he had to do. Punishment would be enacted, and he flicked his solar steeds into a dive with his whip. The glue holding Icarus's wings began to melt. Too late he realized that his hubris was in vain, and that, worse still, his schoolwork was to receive a resounding F.

And resounding were Icarus's cries as he plummeted back to the earth who had so pleadingly remonstrated with him to heed her entreaties.

A retelling of the famous Greek story of Icarus, by Kimus Aesopus, a renowned Roman storyteller and folklorist.

 

[tyder001]

Well Kim while I admire your fortitude to request and take no quarter on these forums I gotta tell you. Nigel Kerner is not a transhumanist by any means. Still, you have weathered some storms here. I know that "toting a cussing" as we say in the south isn't easy be it on a message board or real life. But, some of us here (I know I am) are just plain folks and can relate better to just plain talk. But, you do express yourself well and although it is certain to irritate some who disagree, I absolutely feel the forum needs more and more diversity of thought. But, these are just my thoughts on the matter.

Steve