The burden of proof

[Wade]

Another reason the burden of proof rests on those making claims for the existence of something or another is that only THEY know what it is they are asserting the existence of that they want disproven! This could not be more true than when considering paranormal subjects like supernatural beings. The burden of proof is on the one claiming the existence of largely undefined and unknown things and not the other way around. If person A approaches person B and says, "Prove that X [X is your favorite supernatural being or creature] does not exist!" The first order of business would be for person A to communicate what X was to B! B has no reason or obligation to mount an argument against the existence of something they know nothing about and quite possibly have not interest in.

The burden of proof lies squarely with the one making the assertion that something exists to be disproved in the first place.

very good footwork there !!

 

[trainedobserver]

very good footwork there !!

"Prove X doesn't exist." assumes the existence of X in some form and that the person to whom the demand has been made has knowledge of it.

When faced with the demand, "Prove Blue Zonks don't exist!" ignorance of even the possibility of the existence of Blue Zonks (all named Elvis btw) proves to be major stumbling block in the logical progression of the argument. If that demand were made of me I would be at a complete loss unless the person making the demand could reasonably demonstrate to me what a Blue Zonk was supposed to be since I have no knowledge of Blue Zonks.

It all boils down to the fundamental problem of first having to prove the existence of the subject that you are subsequently asking someone to disprove. Yes, that grinds your mental gears for a reason. Double clutching won't help, you're going to have to get out and push.

Therefore, "Prove X doesn't exist!" is by definition, an asinine demand to make. It only makes sense to say, "I will prove to you that X exists!" and then to proceed to do so.

 

[stonehart]

Another reason the burden of proof rests on those making claims for the existence of something or another is that only THEY know what it is they are asserting the existence of that they want disproven! This could not be more true than when considering paranormal subjects like supernatural beings. The burden of proof is on the one claiming the existence of largely undefined and unknown things and not the other way around. If person A approaches person B and says, "Prove that X [X is your favorite supernatural being or creature] does not exist!" The first order of business would be for person A to communicate what X was to B! B has no reason or obligation to mount an argument against the existence of something they know nothing about and quite possibly have not interest in.

The burden of proof lies squarely with the one making the assertion that something exists to be disproved in the first place.

Nice way to put it

 

[Wade]

Nice way to put it

which is what i had meant but after looking at my post i thought it could have looked like a sort a snotty remark, that later caveat "...something exists to be disproved in the first place..." which i highlighted, is kind of what i was looking for, it kind of patched a hole that i thought existed in the films that were posted, unless like i said i had missed that exacxt point in the first place.

 

[trainedobserver]

which is what i had meant but after looking at my post i thought it could have looked like a sort a snotty remark, that later caveat "...something exists to be disproved in the first place..." which i highlighted, is kind of what i was looking for, it kind of patched a hole that i thought existed in the films that were posted, unless like i said i had missed that exacxt point in the first place.

I saw it as going either way and took it as another opportunity for me to continue my rant!

You can only "prove something doesn't exist" if you are very specific. I can prove that there was not a Big Foot named Karl existing in my office this morning. I have CC footage and card reader records. I cannot however prove that undiscovered humanoids do not exist.

 

[Muadib]

My father and I were just discussing this subject last week when comparing catastrophic anthropogenic global warming believers to religious people. We think it is basically a new religion replacing an old religion. Both are based on faith and a belief system rather than facts and evidence.

You're so wrong it's unbelievable. Whether it's catastrophic or not remains to be seen, but we're definitely a factor. The belief that global warming is a myth is just that, a belief. The debate has been over on that one for some time. "The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is very likely human-induced and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented in the past 1,300 years." From: Climate Change: Evidence

"Scientific evidence for warming of the climate system is unequivocal."

- Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

 

[pixelsmith]

IPCC?! lmfao... come back when you have something that doesnt come from a UN organization run by a corrupt porn writing railroad engineer. oh wait... maybe this was a joke posting?

 

[Muadib]

IPCC?! lmfao... come back when you have something that doesnt come from a UN organization run by a corrupt porn writing railroad engineer. oh wait... maybe this was a joke posting?

ROFL, because that matters.... There's this thing in science, it's called peer review. The fact is the vast majority of climate scientists agree that global warming is happening, and that we're a contributing factor. You may not agree with this, but the facts and evidence are not on your side, so who has beliefs here?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

ROFL, because that matters.... There's this thing in science, it's called peer review. The fact is the vast majority of climate scientists agree that global warming is happening, and that we're a contributing factor. You may not agree with this, but the facts and evidence are not on your side, so who has beliefs here?

This will spiral out of control - please move the discussion to one of the other various global warming debate threads or create a new one.

Thanks

 

[Muadib]

This will spiral out of control - please move the discussion to one of the other various global warming debate threads or create a new one.

Thanks

I agree, and I'll happily shut up about it as soon as the guy who keeps bringing it up in every thread does the same. Thanks.

 

[pixelsmith]

I took it to a private conversation so Muadib did not embarrass himself any further.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I took the liberty to warn him about you, Pixel

 

[Muadib]

I took it to a private conversation so Muadib did not embarrass himself any further.

Why would I be embarrassed, you've presented nothing but your opinion on the IPCC and climategate emails, which hardly meets the burden of proof, wouldn't you agree? Angel did warn me, and this is what he said:

Go down that path at your own risk - it will end in frustration as Pixel trots out junk science from conservative think tanks.​

Reading what you wrote on the topic, it looks as though we see it in similar ways. People have trouble taking the politics out of the science.​

Angelo

Not really a ringing endorsement of your analytical skills...

 

[Angel of Ioren]

You know, private messages are supposed to be private, although in this case, Pixel knows exactly how I feel about his evidence.

 

[Muadib]

You know, private messages are supposed to be private, although in this case, Pixel knows exactly how I feel about his evidence.

I wouldn't have mentioned it if you didn't bring it up, I'll remove it if you want me to.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Don't worry about it. Pixel and I are buddies, despite our differences. He knows how I feel about his "science" about climate change.

Here's a thread for you guys to take this discussion public if you wish:

Global Warming Happy Fun-Time | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[Muadib]

LMFAO I love the thread title! However, I have better things to do than get into a long drawn out debate with someone on global warming on the internet, it's completely and utterly pointless. I seriously doubt he'll change my mind and I'm definitely not going to change his, so why bother? I'm not here to prove anything to anyone.

 

[pixelsmith]

show me the scientific method that proves human caused global warming on a catastrophic or a level that should cause concern. Neither of you OR your "scientists" can. You all have the burden of proof and all you can provide is a "consensus" from a corrupt body of UN controlled, well funded, pseudo scientists. You are both part of the new religion.

This thread is about "burden of proof", show your proof. Angel never has and Muadib never will either.

 

[pixelsmith]

So in true liberal fashion this thread will be locked soon because we all know these people including Al Gore do not and can not debate this subject.

 

[Muadib]

show me the scientific method that proves human caused global warming on a catastrophic or a level that should cause concern. Neither of you OR your "scientists" can. You all have the burden of proof and all you can provide is a "consensus" from a corrupt body of UN controlled, well funded, pseudo scientists. You are both part of the new religion.

This thread is about "burden of proof", show your proof. Angel never has and Muadib never will either.

Blah blah blah, you're mistaking my position. My position is: global warming is happening and we are probably a contributing factor, I make no claims that it's catastrophic. I do think we should take steps to reduce our emissions. I don't think that cap and trade is the answer. I could provide plenty of other sources that aren't from the UN but like I said in my previous post, I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, and I don't have the time nor inclination to get into a long drawn out debate where we post a bunch of links to support our individual positions and at the end of the debate all we've done is rehash the arguments for umpteenth time and neither of us has convinced the other one. If I wanted an exercise in pointlessness, I'd go debate a Muslim on the existence of Allah.