I think that's correct, TO, but his anger is surely based in more than the way he and his experiences have been manipulated and distorted all these years. I think it's rooted in the outrage and frustration all of us feel when we become aware of the massive distortion of reality carried out through disinformation and mind manipulation by the PTB to suppress the significance of the ufo phenomenon for the last 60 years.
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The most convincing case of an Identified Alien Craft (IAC) is?
- Thread starter Derek Wood
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I think that's correct, TO, but his anger is surely based in more than the way he and his experiences have been manipulated and distorted all these years. I think it's rooted in the outrage and frustration all of us feel when we become aware of the massive distortion of reality carried out through disinformation and mind manipulation by the PTB to suppress the significance of the ufo phenomenon for the last 60 years.
Speculation's all we got, hence the creative value of this forum. The idea of the green fireball as monitor does return us to a Fortean world view where human beings are just in someone else's goldfish bowl, where we might not even be the goldfish, but just a barometer of some sort, a minor variable that at this point in the history of the planet is having a very noticeable impact on earth and other species. This idea of earth's "minders" places us far outside any capacity to interact or even communicate with said overlords. I just wish they would do a better job of stopping ourselves from poisoning the habitat.
"Speculation's all we got . . ."
??? I disagree. Believing that 'speculation is all we have' licenses increasingly bizarre speculations that are out of touch with what we do know about the ufo history of the last 60 years and about the institutions that control perceptions of reality in our time.
And who is responsible for the "centralizing of power, control and knowledge in a partisan, militaristic society, instead of better collective decision making." Surely not the mass of manipulated humanity, sitting here in the dark like mushrooms being fed bullshit since 1947.
nameless
Paranormal Adept
also its worth bearing in mind that you have a hierarchy in the military where even still only a few people will know whats a psy op or a black project cover up and what isn't. to every other facet of the military all UFO actions are the same shit , some weird stuff unexplainable. To the top guys real UFO actions/sightings are the ones that aren't theirs and they don't know what the fuck they are.
The military, government, cia, nsa, aa, nasa, secret nasa, steven greer, dolan, bob bigelow, richard hoagland do not know what "UFOS" are but they want you to believe that they do and thats why the disclosure project is bullshit and why people come begging cap in hand.. "please Mr, tell me whats going on, tell me what my life means, I await your further instruction oh master."
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
I think society in general likes to eat bullshit, Constance, it's what we're trained to do. Trying to create corporate, militaristic, or gov't responsibility in a court of law requires an increasingly powerful amount of resources to deal with those bodies and in that order. They always have kill options, or fake suicides to help them out in a pinch. We are meek and we inherit nada.
In other environments people rise against their military, their dictator etc. and it is a bloody path towards justice. That's just not the North American way. Power was consolidated here a long time ago and removed itself from the whole scene. We just cry and weep at the doors of injustice; and we can even collect together to demand our rights and our due but the only body you can squeeze that out of is the corporate one when they make absolutely inane mistakes. But bear in mind that the politician set the acceptable tolerances and standards for human experimentation in the frst place. Most of our meat can't be sold in the EU because what our gov't says is cool as far as animal husbandry is just not considered safe across the pond. Most payouts for the errors of spraying roadsides and kids' playgrounds with carcinogens to stop weed growth don't happen till decades after the fact, when most of the recipients are already dead.
And that's why speculation is all we got, though I would qualify that for diligent voices, Constance, and rephrase that as, informed speculation, as I don't mean to suggest we should be running wild and footloose with whatever piece of cotton candy we pull out of the air.
Some, like Dolan, are quie exceptional at running the Cotton Candy stand and create the platforms for new myths to get traction. Some top ufologists see his UFO's and the National Security State as pure hooey, but well told indeed.
In other environments people rise against their military, their dictator etc. and it is a bloody path towards justice. That's just not the North American way. Power was consolidated here a long time ago and removed itself from the whole scene. We just cry and weep at the doors of injustice; and we can even collect together to demand our rights and our due but the only body you can squeeze that out of is the corporate one when they make absolutely inane mistakes. But bear in mind that the politician set the acceptable tolerances and standards for human experimentation in the frst place. Most of our meat can't be sold in the EU because what our gov't says is cool as far as animal husbandry is just not considered safe across the pond. Most payouts for the errors of spraying roadsides and kids' playgrounds with carcinogens to stop weed growth don't happen till decades after the fact, when most of the recipients are already dead.
And that's why speculation is all we got, though I would qualify that for diligent voices, Constance, and rephrase that as, informed speculation, as I don't mean to suggest we should be running wild and footloose with whatever piece of cotton candy we pull out of the air.
Some, like Dolan, are quie exceptional at running the Cotton Candy stand and create the platforms for new myths to get traction. Some top ufologists see his UFO's and the National Security State as pure hooey, but well told indeed.
Most of our meat can't be sold in the EU because what our gov't says is cool as far as animal husbandry is just not considered safe across the pond. Most payouts for the errors of spraying roadsides and kids' playgrounds with carcinogens to stop weed growth don't happen till decades after the fact, when most of the recipients are already dead.
i used to lose my rag with my mother when my daughter was little and she had her at her house, she would spray aerosols all around the house, a thick mist of air freshener or flea spray, i told her once, and she knew i meant it, that if i walked in to collect kelly again and the house was thick with air freshener, it would be the last time my daughter walked into her home, she did it all thru my childhood, that thick the mist as it settled it would make your skin wet.
all she would say was dont be stupid, they wouldnt sell it if it was harmful, she died of cancer 5 years ago on her 70th birthday.
i used to lose my rag with my mother when my daughter was little and she had her at her house, she would spray aerosols all around the house, a thick mist of air freshener or flea spray, i told her once, and she knew i meant it, that if i walked in to collect kelly again and the house was thick with air freshener, it would be the last time my daughter walked into her home, she did it all thru my childhood, that thick the mist as it settled it would make your skin wet.
all she would say was dont be stupid, they wouldnt sell it if it was harmful, she died of cancer 5 years ago on her 70th birthday.
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You won't get an argument from me that American society hasn't been intentionally and broadly 'dumbed down' since the end of the second World War by a variety of means and devices cloathed in self-destructive -- as well as internationally destructive -- ideologies. But we now know both why and how that happened, and knowledge is still power of a certain sort.
No question that the cards have been well stacked against political, economic, and moral enlightenment and change by now, but I wouldn't write our entire society off as fatally compromised and wilfully ignorant. A number of people have speculated that only a widespread natural crisis could set this house of cards falling, and that out of the ashes of its dismantling a more rational and equitable society might eventually emerge. That might be our best remaining hope.
And nameless wrote:
I have to disagree, nameless. I think most of the above-named individuals and the top echelons of the above-named agencies do have a good idea what the significant 5-10 percent of ufos have been, the challenge they have represented, and it's nothing as fantasy-based as some of the speculations tossed about in this forum.
Burnt State continued:
Which 'top ufologists' do you have in mind? And where can I read their deconstructions of Dolan's research, documentation, and reasoning in the first 1,200 pages of his trilogy concerning ufos and the US national security state?
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Jerome Clark in one of his first interviews on the Paracast had a long noticeable pause when Biedny claimed, perhaps insultingly for Clark, that the two most important books ever written in Ufological history were Dolan's Security State and Clark's UFO Encyclopedia multi-volume sets. After acknowledging the compliment half heartedly he clearly stated that he felt that there had in fact been no alteration whatsoever in the state's response. He dismissed Dolan's oeuvre in about one or two brief sentences if I remember correctly.
Now we're all familiar with how we can get the bible to support everything from banning dancing, supporting polygamy, proving that there were once giants or in blaming women for every single mistake a man has ever made in the history of men and women. Dolan is downright suspicious in my books in his selectivity when it comes to his version of history, his mystery guest interviews and now his attempt to build his own Ufological conglomerate with some "researchers" in his collective and radio programming who routinely claim up close and personal interactions with little greys running around in the wheat fields right alongside them.
IMHO I see Clark as a definitive historian, admittely a personal bias, and then that would position Dolan more as pseudo-historian. There certainly is enough of a bizarre and tangled history between the American Military and how it has handled the UFO situation over the years that may lead one to to be able to create the books Dolan has, but a careful look at that history doesn't really offer up much more than scrambling jets when stuff is up in the sky.
As to who has knowledge: I don't think anyone knows squat about the phenomenon. What the US military may have is a lot of really interesting data, maybe even some images, that they have kept to themselves. But have they taken time to create an overt response to the phenomenon? Clark says, "I don't see any evidence of that at all."
A "long noticeable pause" and a dismissal of 1,200 pages of historical research "in about one or two brief sentences" is hardly a rebuttal, Burnt. A rebuttal of that research would require a text of at least equal length. I'll wait for it. The same can be said of Hasting's research and a great many other ufo histories published over the last half-century.
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continuing
You clearly feel quite strongly about Dolan. Why not write some papers or a book of your own detailing the 'selectivity' you think exists in his first two volumes. I wonder why Clark himself has not done so as a service to the ufo research field. Re Dolan's publishing a list of books by other researchers, this is the same thing Russell Targ has done, to his great credit, in the field of remote viewing and other consciousness research, including some that had been out of print. I haven't heard any of Dolan's radio programs with witnesses and/or whistleblowers, but both Edgar Mitchell and Bernard Haisch have repeated information concerning back-engineering of crashed ufos in black projects of the US military-industrial complex shared with them on condition of maintaining public anonymity, and I see no reason not to believe them.
?? I don't see why. Clark performed one kind of service with his encyclopedia articles; Dolan performed another kind of service (I would say a more daunting task) in tracing the chronological history of ufo and governmental/military interactions in the US since the late 40s to the extent possible given the level of secrecy practiced.
I've read Dolan's books carefully and found far more there than you suggest. But what's the point of arguing about it? Anyone who's interested should read Dolan for themselves.
Would you clarify what you and Clark mean by "an overt response to the phenomenon"?
You clearly feel quite strongly about Dolan. Why not write some papers or a book of your own detailing the 'selectivity' you think exists in his first two volumes. I wonder why Clark himself has not done so as a service to the ufo research field. Re Dolan's publishing a list of books by other researchers, this is the same thing Russell Targ has done, to his great credit, in the field of remote viewing and other consciousness research, including some that had been out of print. I haven't heard any of Dolan's radio programs with witnesses and/or whistleblowers, but both Edgar Mitchell and Bernard Haisch have repeated information concerning back-engineering of crashed ufos in black projects of the US military-industrial complex shared with them on condition of maintaining public anonymity, and I see no reason not to believe them.
?? I don't see why. Clark performed one kind of service with his encyclopedia articles; Dolan performed another kind of service (I would say a more daunting task) in tracing the chronological history of ufo and governmental/military interactions in the US since the late 40s to the extent possible given the level of secrecy practiced.
I've read Dolan's books carefully and found far more there than you suggest. But what's the point of arguing about it? Anyone who's interested should read Dolan for themselves.
Would you clarify what you and Clark mean by "an overt response to the phenomenon"?
and added
I'm not clear what you mean by the phrase "subtle differences" relating to 'where I stand'. I stand in the un-subtle place of the 'beleever' in the physical reality of 5-10 percent of ufos seen and reacted to worldwide and in their interpretation as technologically advanced and intelligently maneuvred 'machinery' of some kind that has not originated with our species on this planet. I also think it's beyond doubt that the modern history of ufos has by and large been covered up by terrestrial governments until the last ten years or so, a situation now breaking down slowly.
Would you tell me why you think the disclosure movement has "done us all a great disservice"? I haven't heard anyone say that before and I'm very interested in what you mean. Thanks.
Soupie
Paranormal Adept
Re the breakaway society and UFOs.
I have not read any books regarding the concept of the breakaway society. For me, a breakaway society would have to consist of the US military or factions within the US military that possessed knowledge and technology that the rest of human society does not. Indeed, I think it can be said pretty obviously that this is the case.
What Lies Beneath - Radiolab
I read somewhere that the entire project cost the equivalent of 3.8 billion dollars. A drop in the bucket really. Bottom line: The US military will do whatever it wants whenever it wants. They have demonstrably waged global misinformation campaigns for projects - like the above - of which we still don't know the whole story, and never will. (Re Rendlesham: they were willing to launch the above project to recover a nuke and possible some codes. Do you really think they'd fuck around with mind games on a base filled with illegal nukes?)
U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org
China, Russia, UK, Japan, France, Saudi Arabia, India, Germany, Italy, and Brazil combined = $652 Billion
That's right. The US military has a budget that's 30 billion dollars more than the next 10 countries combined. I'm sure a lot of that is tied up in international bases, but what of the rest of it? Who knows. Certainly not the Executive Branch nor Congress, and certainly not us.
Now, whether the US military is behind all of the UFO sighting that have occurred in the past 60+ years, I don't know. Are they responsible for some? Yes. How about the sightings of ultra advanced craft? The metallic spheroids that zigzag about like bugs and avoid radar detection. Difficult to believe those are man-made. (But still not necessarily ET.)
I have not read any books regarding the concept of the breakaway society. For me, a breakaway society would have to consist of the US military or factions within the US military that possessed knowledge and technology that the rest of human society does not. Indeed, I think it can be said pretty obviously that this is the case.
What Lies Beneath - Radiolab
(I think it's interesting that Hersh saw through it... Hm, I wonder how the persuaded him to keep quiet. I wonder how many people they've "persuaded" to keep quiet over the decades?)
I read somewhere that the entire project cost the equivalent of 3.8 billion dollars. A drop in the bucket really. Bottom line: The US military will do whatever it wants whenever it wants. They have demonstrably waged global misinformation campaigns for projects - like the above - of which we still don't know the whole story, and never will. (Re Rendlesham: they were willing to launch the above project to recover a nuke and possible some codes. Do you really think they'd fuck around with mind games on a base filled with illegal nukes?)
U.S. defense spending compared to other countries | pgpf.org
US = $682 Billion
China, Russia, UK, Japan, France, Saudi Arabia, India, Germany, Italy, and Brazil combined = $652 Billion
That's right. The US military has a budget that's 30 billion dollars more than the next 10 countries combined. I'm sure a lot of that is tied up in international bases, but what of the rest of it? Who knows. Certainly not the Executive Branch nor Congress, and certainly not us.
Now, whether the US military is behind all of the UFO sighting that have occurred in the past 60+ years, I don't know. Are they responsible for some? Yes. How about the sightings of ultra advanced craft? The metallic spheroids that zigzag about like bugs and avoid radar detection. Difficult to believe those are man-made. (But still not necessarily ET.)
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trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
You must be new to the UFO business then. In a word: assumptions.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Yeah, I know, I laughed out loud when he brushed it aside so quickly, as I was reading Chronolgy of a Cover-up 1941-1973 at the time. I would suggest you listen to the episode yourself, but here's where Clark and Dolan part company. Dolan sees it as a major issue of national security whereas Clark sees offialdom has having no more of a handle on it than anyone else, just in possession of a lot more data. Now where Dolan sees a grand cover-up and total control over the situation, secret military study groups, hiding disclosure from the masses etc., Clark sees a gov't that has nothing of merit to even disclose in the first place. If anything the three letter agencies have successfully used the UFO as a ploy to mask their own manipulations.
Now when you look at Vallee's intro to the first text in the trilogy he acknowledges that when he came on the scene in America there was no indexing whatsoever of the 10,000 plus cases. Does that sound like a concerted effort to control a situation? In his conclusion Dolan focuses on two contentions: that they aliens are here and that they are a threat. I think those are also big assumptions. For there is no proof of either to date - yes a powerful phenomenon is at work, but a threat? Where do we see this? And aliens? That's one common suspicion. You have to believe in abductions and a hybridization program to go there, or make assumptions that many missing pilots were swallowed up by UFO's and this also has no real stable ground.
But I do agree with you, Constance, people should read books and make their own decisions. IMHO we should not confuse a public relations exercise about an unknown phenomenon with a cover-up. The only thing I see being covered up is the sense of control and power that power needs to maintain for its own sense of ego and spending budgets. But do they know what's going on? Are they engaged in battle with off world forces? I don't see any evidence of that, nor do I see the threat proved.
Dolan uses the same alarmist drama in his interpretation of UFO history and military might that he critiques Keyhoe for in the same book. Again, it all sounds quite plausible but it heads into the same direction of confirming Roswell as an alien crash with recovered bodies. We don't know this. And what do we know of the concerns of the state today? They turn around and say, let the billionaire collect the files, as they are simply not processing it as there is no real threat that we know of. Again, it's all just speculation, some informed and some bits are guesses. I like the ideas Hastings has strung together in his own speculations, but that's all they are. I can't stop myself from being critical. It's what I learned here on this forum, even though i would like to believe in magic.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
I would have to agree with Clark - but Dolan tells one thumping tale. While I would never close the door on any speculation, Dolan's ideas only 'play' in the macro and abstract. In reality - in the day-to-day banality of existence - it falls apart.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I don't think secret factions ( military or otherwise ) within the existing societal framework count as "breakaway civilizations". A civilization is a massive cultural and geographical artifact that is independent from other civilizations. The military and corporations are not. They are intimately connected to their associated countries which are in-turn all part of our modern global civilization. It may be possible that there are alien bases on Earth that could count as outposts, but there is no credible evidence or reasonable theory that could explain UFOs as the product of a human civilization that has broken away from the rest of civilization here on Earth.