The most convincing case of an Identified Alien Craft (IAC) is?

[manxman]

no credible evidence or reasonable theory

is right, where would they go, how could a civilisation live here undetected, under the sea, under-ground, why?.

 

[Constance]

...Re Rendlesham: they were willing to launch the above project [under cover of 'manganese nodules'] to recover a nuke and possible some codes. Do you really think they'd fuck around with mind games on a base filled with illegal nukes?)

Right; to think so is absurd. But not nearly as absurd as speculating that "the US military is behind all of the UFO sightings that have occurred in the past 60+ years." The first question to be answered would be 'why?' and the second question would be 'how?', the latter being the really difficult one. Have there been any attempts by the geniuses that proffered this theory to answer those questions?

 

[Constance]

no credible evidence or reasonable theory

is right, where would they go, how could a civilisation live here undetected, under the sea, under-ground, why?.

My impression has been that Dolan's speculation about a possible would-be 'breakaway civilization' begins with the existing concentration of both immense wealth and privately held ufo technology in the hands of the private interests controlling the military-industrial complex, with the short-term goal of keeping this planet reliant on oil to squeeze the last possible profits from it and a planned eventual exodus for themselves one happy day when they find another suitable planet to move to. No doubt Kurzweil already has a ticket to ride, in exchange for life-extension services rendered to other Faustian movers and shakers.

 

[Tyger]

David Vincent?

Here is the opening narration at the start of each show - shades of Rod Serling's writing -

Narrator: The Invaders: alien beings from a dying planet. Their destination: the Earth. Their purpose: to make it *their* world. David Vincent has seen them. For him, it began one lost night on a lonely country road, looking for a shortcut that he never found. It began with a closed deserted diner, and a man too long without sleep to continue his journey. It began with the landing of a craft from another galaxy. Now, David Vincent knows that the Invaders are here, that they have taken human form. Somehow, he must convince a disbelieving world, that the nightmare has already begun...

I think these memes set in motion the imaginative life of many people. Such stories had a powerful impact.

Listen to Serling's liquid tones....

 

[Constance]

Dolan sees it as a major issue of national security whereas Clark sees offialdom has having no more of a handle on it than anyone else, just in possession of a lot more data.

I will have to listen to this interview. Did Clark take the view that the military's lack of "a handle on" the ufo phenomenon somehow meant that ufos were not considered a national security issue since the late 40s? That wouldn't make sense given what we know of the ufo history here and abroad and what we know about the coverup.

Now where Dolan sees a grand cover-up and total control over the situation, secret military study groups, hiding disclosure from the masses etc., Clark sees a gov't that has nothing of merit to even disclose in the first place.

Dolan and other researchers not only saw but have documented the coverup, but neither Dolan or other researchers I've read claim that the US military has had "total control over the [ufo] situation." Far from it; very far from it, that being the primary motivation for the coverup, as a long list of insiders have admitted. The military/gov't did control the flow of information about events and encounters, and technical data thereby obtained, year after year, decade after decade, as you recognized. But Clark believes the US government "has nothing of merit to even disclose in the first place"? Are you sure he didn't intend to say that after all these years the PTB don't know where the ufos have come from or what they want relative to this planet? That's a statement that would make sense. Can you tell me the approximate date of that Paracast interview?

If anything the three letter agencies have successfully used the UFO as a ploy to mask their own manipulations.

Do you mean that the agencies have suggested that some military mishaps and/or transgressions have been put off to 'ufos' as another kind of coverup, or something else?

Past my bedtime, so I'll finish this up tomorrow.

 

[nameless]

This is the crux of it and where the real schism in the UFO community lies and could possibly be an analogy or an onion skin to a more complex understanding of human behaviour and experience. We can discredit the new age bollocks for now and lets concentrate on the good ol' paradigm of yesteryear that is ETH materialism. They have been clinging to this ideal for so long now and creating this Stanton Friedman house of cards so much so that their position becomes untenable to the contrary and is not really interested in the truth but only serves to interpret their reality and how they define themselves as human beings . The selective case work and partial reading of documented UFO encounters which more often enough is parochial at best only goes to support this stance and this is what the status quo of ufology has been built on and why it has gone no where in 60 years.

The only thing positive I can get from this is a working case study in the way we as humans create organic belief systems and seek truth from the unknown. This kind of ufological belief system is ultimately self serving and serves as a form of social constructivism very much based on the ruling Abrahamavic belief system of western culture . Like most ufo cult religions and religions in general (ironically the ETH cultists can not see the wood through the trees for this matter) in order for this system to take hold it needs a mystical or unexplainable event(s), a relic or evidence helps to concrete this and although it doesn't go to prove anything, offers a chance to engrain a theory into doctrine pulling an idea or a mixed bag of peoples perceptions from the ether of their experience and memory into the material world. It could also be a photo or a film or a document from God like Moses coming back from the mountains with the Majestic 12 documents, some baco- foil and a good probing, or the word of god as told by the church of Episcopal Latter Day Serpo. Once an assumption has been made (due in part to a lack of imagination and an unwillingness to entertain other just as plausible belief structures or religions) a conclusion is drawn based on this monotheistic imperative trying to attach meaning to this theorising, pedestrian at best like the evidence itself its drawn usually from sci fi pulp fiction through the lens or filter of the current paradigm. The main theory becomes ingrained to the centre of the argument ingrained i.e.. aliens, this becomes part of the spiritual doctrine and like all of these things is immaterial. But we have this need as humans to bring the immaterial into existence , the need to procreate. We get frustrated when people don't follow our belief systems and like good scientists we demand proof, because it just doesn't make sense still. Then the papacy to our cult brings forward the Turin Shroud. It comes in and out of favour, it offers real tangible evidence but it could be a fake. I think at the moment its real but could change again? But people have their own real mystical experiences and seemingly nonsensical contradictory observations. The church doesn't like this and so spiritual doctrine decrees and interprets these view and re-amalgamates back into the church or kicks them into some cathar stronghold to let them get on with their cousin marrying snake waving camelot project weirdness.

But the god fearing status quo, backed by the church pulls out experts on ufology based on countless christians coming closer to god and these christians are priests, saints and bishops who know god better than anyone because they have doctorates to prove it and who were there when christ died and they recovered his body parts too ;"But he's not the son of god right, you know all the weirdness, the miracles and floating in the air all that stuff, that didn't happen he was just some ordinary dude ?" Yes he is god and the priests can prove it plus there are countless written texts on the matter, witness testimony, turin shroud, a bit of the cross etc . Its just not good enough is it and the disclosure project know this and their banging on the Church door because they're the authority right? "tell us the real truth about Ezekiel's wheel but not elves or fairies we don't believe in that shit anymore but we do believe in the the weird angels that impregnate us at night and the holy spirit that touches us, we know you've got some better wood cuts, more of the true cross and some weird angel type ark of the covenant type shit and more secret scripture".

I guess if you want hand outs from god then you go to the people who created him in the first place. They don't know much about the fairies or elves as they dismissed all that stuff out of hand when they built churches on pagan sites, piggybacking the belief systems of the past to carry on controlling the masses. Its enough to carry on the shill game of belief and church indcotrination and while people are cow towing to the Pope or fighting each other over how to kneel before god, venetian bankers, the papacy and landed gentry can carry on fleecing.

Then we hit the invisible forcefield parameters of our small minded belief system, we hit it and bounce back on our self, the modern malaise of meta post modernism , the catch 22 of human existence that maybe weirdness and the paranormal is trying to break us free from ,that being the importance and belief we place on the material to prove what is at best immaterial;

And when the powers that be say, "actually we don't really know what the fuck is going on" it still won't be good enough - "your lying to us-your hiding something, its a conspiracy, were still waiting for that one photo, hold on, photos can be manipulated right? even if you are telling the truth it could still be a lie right? its a double bluff, a triple bluff, i mean that one film, video ; ok 3d holographic film, filmed at a stadium with lots of people in front of the worlds news cameras preferably in front of the whitehouse and some people i know are real like some celebrities , what we need is a real alien dead or alive like a bigfoot corpse that we can cut up so we know its not from earth because it doesn't fit into our evolutionary structure , yeah we need a live autopsy or possibly a live event like when the sky opens up and the giant mothership appears and reigns down light open us and the heaven opens up and we witness THEE FINAL TRUTH , THEE UNKNOWABLE BECOMES KNOWN. PRAISE BE ROSWELL. AND THE RADAR BLIP OF SWIFTNESS YET INDISCERNIBLE CREATION FROM THE PLANET SUPPOSITION THAT TURNS INTO AN ALIEN SAYING "WE ARE THE ONE TRUE ALIEN IN OUR VERY GOOD MECHANICAL FLYING BOAT FROM WHERE WE CALL APLHA CENTAUR AND YOU CALL BY COINCIDENCE ALPHA CENTAUR TOO YES WE USE WORDS TOO TO COMMUNICATE PRAISE BE THE HOLY CRUCIFIXATION OF THE ROSWELL AUTOPSY AND VARIOUS UNDISCLOSED BUT NOT SO SECRET CRASH RETRIEVALS WE HAVE CHOSEN YOU AMERICA BECAUSE YOU DIDNT BELIEVE THE AFRICAN SCHOOL CHILDREN. "

But this clinging to the the idea that the powers that be or the government are going to provide the answer is the problem off basically everything in our society at the moment and completely understandable and in some ways true.

 

[smcder]

Here is the opening narration at the start of each show - shades of Rod Serling's writing -

Narrator: The Invaders: alien beings from a dying planet. Their destination: the Earth. Their purpose: to make it *their* world. David Vincent has seen them. For him, it began one lost night on a lonely country road, looking for a shortcut that he never found. It began with a closed deserted diner, and a man too long without sleep to continue his journey. It began with the landing of a craft from another galaxy. Now, David Vincent knows that the Invaders are here, that they have taken human form. Somehow, he must convince a disbelieving world, that the nightmare has already begun...

I think these memes set in motion the imaginative life of many people. Such stories had a powerful impact.

Listen to Serling's liquid tones....

I like that description: "liquid tones" . . . as a kid I had Serling's voice down and used to entertain one of my junior high coaches doing the impression . . . his daughter just released a biography that I'd like to get, by the way - she apparently thought a lot of him as a father and a person.

 

[nameless]

Here is the opening narration at the start of each show - shades of Rod Serling's writing -

Narrator: The Invaders: alien beings from a dying planet. Their destination: the Earth. Their purpose: to make it *their* world. David Vincent has seen them. For him, it began one lost night on a lonely country road, looking for a shortcut that he never found. It began with a closed deserted diner, and a man too long without sleep to continue his journey. It began with the landing of a craft from another galaxy. Now, David Vincent knows that the Invaders are here, that they have taken human form. Somehow, he must convince a disbelieving world, that the nightmare has already begun...

I think these memes set in motion the imaginative life of many people. Such stories had a powerful impact.

Listen to Serling's liquid tones....

so they cut the line off to do with gas chambers in a programme about nuremberg because the sponsors were kitchen and gas appliance manufacturers . this programme weirdly is particularly relevant .

 

[trainedobserver]

Listen to Serling's liquid tones....

Serling is one my heroes. A great speaking voice.

They are both smoking on T.V.! Serling died of a heart attack at age 50! Rumor is he was a patient of the Hollywood doctor who was giving folk vitamin shots that essentially consisted of methamphetamine.

 

[trainedobserver]

...The selective case work and partial reading of documented UFO encounters which more often enough is parochial at best only goes to support this stance and this is what the status quo of ufology has been built on and why it has gone no where in 60 years. ...

Excellent post. Yes indeed. The practice of cherry picking what gets put in the ufological box is exactly what goes on in the religious realm as well and hamstrings both from any progress, if progress is even possible in these arenas, which I have come to severely doubt.

I'm reminded of John Keel's position statement in Ronald Story's Encyclopedia.

"...Basically, a large part of the UFO lore is subjective and many alleged UFO events are actually the products of a complex hallucinatory process, particularly in the contactee and CE III-type reports. The same process stimulated religious beliefs, fairy lore, and occult systems of belief in other centuries.
"
Great post nameless one!

 

[Tyger]

Serling is one my heroes. A great speaking voice.

They are both smoking on T.V.! Serling died of a heart attack at age 50! Rumor is he was a patient of the Hollywood doctor who was giving folk vitamin shots that essentially consisted of methamphetamine.

Edward R. Morrow - the famed, legendary journalist and early newscaster, did the smoke bit with great flare and drama - the smoke swirling against the blackness of the backdrop. I thought Mike Wallace was imitating this, and Serling was likely encouraged to do the same. It all seems intentional. Wonder if one of the advertisers was Camel cigarets?

 

[smcder]

Serling is one my heroes. A great speaking voice.

They are both smoking on T.V.! Serling died of a heart attack at age 50! Rumor is he was a patient of the Hollywood doctor who was giving folk vitamin shots that essentially consisted of methamphetamine.

That's labelled as "historical smoking" in today's films . . . goes along with "mild peril" I think. There was a time when I would have walked a mile for a Camel . . . ironically it was the same time that I could not actually walk a mile.

I heard about this doctor, in a long discussion on BOA last summer - and the tie in with
JFK. -fascinating

binnall of america : audio

 

[Tyger]

Excellent post. Yes indeed. The practice of cherry picking what gets put in the ufological box is exactly what goes on in the religious realm as well and hamstrings both from any progress, if progress is even possible in these arenas, which I have come to severely doubt.

I'm reminded of John Keel's position statement in Ronald Story's Encyclopedia.

"...Basically, a large part of the UFO lore is subjective and many alleged UFO events are actually the products of a complex hallucinatory process, particularly in the contactee and CE III-type reports. The same process stimulated religious beliefs, fairy lore, and occult systems of belief in other centuries.
"
Great post nameless one!

I'm willing to go into this but can't now due to time - but the careful, reasoned analysis breaks down completely here with such a blanket - and ignorant - statement by Mr Keel. As the saying goes - "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Perception and experience are skewing the picture here.

P.S. Its also a topic maybe best explored in another thread as this could easily flood this thread. What do you think?

I think the religious nature of ufology is a valid observation and worth a separate conversation. A lot there to tangle with.

 

[trainedobserver]

I'm willing to go into this but can't now due to time - but the careful, reasoned analysis breaks down completely here with such a blanket - and ignorant - statement by Mr Keel. As the saying goes - "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Perception and experience are skewing the picture here.

P.S. Its also a topic maybe best explored in another thread as this could easily flood this thread. What do you think?

I think the religious nature of ufology is a valid observation and worth a separate conversation. A lot there to tangle with.

Ignorant statement? Hardly. The parallels between UFO and other "paranormal" encounters and religious experience are startling and cannot be dismissed so easily.

Sure, start another thread. Like most of the discussions in this forum, we tend to branch off frequently.

 

[smcder]

I'm willing to go into this but can't now due to time - but the careful, reasoned analysis breaks down completely here with such a blanket - and ignorant - statement by Mr Keel. As the saying goes - "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Perception and experience are skewing the picture here.

P.S. Its also a topic maybe best explored in another thread as this could easily flood this thread. What do you think?

I think the religious nature of ufology is a valid observation and worth a separate conversation. A lot there to tangle with.

I think the religious nature of ufology is a valid observation and worth a separate conversation. A lot there to tangle with.

That would be interesting.

 

[Tyger]

Ignorant statement? Hardly. The parallels between UFO and other "paranormal" encounters and religious experience are startling and cannot be dismissed so easily.

Sure, start another thread. Like most of the discussions in this forum, we tend to branch off frequently.

The ignorant statement is this blanket: The same process stimulated religious beliefs, fairy lore, and occult systems of belief in other centuries.

And he knows this how? His knowledge of the past is that omniscient? The same process?

But I will start another thread on Ufology and Religion - since this is an endless stumbling block to reasoned analysis imo.

 

[trainedobserver]

The ignorant statement is this blanket: The same process stimulated religious beliefs, fairy lore, and occult systems of belief in other centuries.

And he knows this how? His knowledge of the past is that omniscient? The same process?

But I will start another thread on Ufology and Religion - since this is an endless stumbling block to reasoned analysis imo.

Similar results speaks to similar processes.

 

[Randall]

This is the crux of it and where the real schism in the UFO community lies and could possibly be an analogy or an onion skin to a more complex understanding of human behaviour and experience ...

A fine rant .

 

[Jeff Davis]

But this clinging to the the idea that the powers that be or the government are going to provide the answer is the problem off basically everything in our society at the moment and completely understandable and in some ways true.

That was some good preachin' Rev. I totally agree about the Roswell mind set. Total ridiculousness. I will state emphatically however that man did not create God. I think as a concept God is misunderstood. Man is God as we understand God and as more and more is revealed about the nature of consciousness the creativity involving what is God will become abundantly clear to us all. God is the highest portion of our own consciousness. It is the formative creation aspect of what we call material reality.

 

[Skymon876]

https://flic.kr/p/104252996%40N06%2Fsets