The Myth of the ETH as the ETFact

[Trajanus]

They say "why do aliens have to be from another planet, its closed minded to think so, why cant they be from another dimension". But I say "atleast we know that there actually are planets, and there is probably a good chance that they have life on them, we don't even know if there are other dimensions"

Right, and furthermore, even if other dimensions were verified, how do we know they are capable of nurturing life? The latter seems very fussy in its requiements, which can seldom be met even in a basically habitable Universe or "dimension."

This in my opinion makes the chances of UFO's being aliens from another planet much higher than them being something from another dimension.

Of course, and there is actual testimony from abductees such as the Hills, that ETs are from other planets; Betty saw the star map.

 

[Gareth]

It's a long story...The book Revealed!..spells it all out. People are so naive. Ever wonder why Friedman, who purports to be striving to uncover the truth, was never silenced by the government ? Sure, I wasn't either, but I don't purport to have access to inside knowlege.

huh? Neither does Stan Friedman.

 

[Paul Kimball]

huh? Neither does Stan Friedman.

Not unless you count the MJ-12 documents.

Judging by the "access to inside information" angle, then Rich Dolan is a far more likely "agent" than Stan, as Rich often claims to have conversations with "insiders".

Either way, it's all loopy in my opinion, and only serves to detract from the serious study of the phenomenon.

 

[Gareth]

Yeah but the poster I quoted was implying that Stan likes to talk about inside info that he knows from his experience in Government employment. (I think anyway, apologies to the trajanus if thats not what you meant)

 

[Ron Collins]

Hi Paul, I completely agree that the ETH is only a theory. I think everyone starts there and depending on how deep down the rabbt hole they go determines what other hypothesis they are willing to acknowledge. However, there is one thing in your opening article that I do not completely agree with.

One of my first posts on this forum was (albeit long winded) amoung other things trying to show that if we are indeed being visited by ET then they do not necessarily have to be thousands of years more advanced than we.

Here is a link to that post.
http://forum.theparacast.com/the-ufo-forum-f8/october-7th-show-a-little-long-but-worth-it-t1155/

It is long but I think (of course I'm biased) it does a good job of showing how they could be much closer to our level of technological sophistication and might have similar goals with regards to the visitation itself.

The real point is, we have no base line for the timeline comparison. In my view, we should not assign a timeline in any way to "them" just as we shouldn't declare for certain what "they" are.

 

[Trajanus]

Not unless you count the MJ-12 documents.

Right, and more, like the Malmstrom witness.

Either way, it's all loopy in my opinion, and only serves to detract from the serious study of the phenomenon.

We should always be alert to attempts to deceive us and intelligent observers don't doubt they happen, quite often.

 

[Paul Kimball]

Hi Paul, I completely agree that the ETH is only a theory. I think everyone starts there and depending on how deep down the rabbt hole they go determines what other hypothesis they are willing to acknowledge. However, there is one thing in your opening article that I do not completely agree with.

One of my first posts on this forum was (albeit long winded) amoung other things trying to show that if we are indeed being visited by ET then they do not necessarily have to be thousands of years more advanced than we.?

Hi Ron,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The native Americans considered the Europeans gods, at least initially, simply because their technology was far more advanced by the standards of the day. On a relative scale, something like that may well be possible vis-a-vis us and any prospective aliens, at least, as Stan Friedman would say, those in our nearby galactic neighbourhood.

However, if that is indeed the case, then I find it hard to believe that they have not made more overt contact with us, whether as conquerors, liberators, benefactors, or whatever (and people like Friedman, who say they can't speculate as to alien motives, after infinite speculation as to them being here, are hypocritical as far as I'm concerned). I similarly do not credit the notion that we have the capability to shoot them down, an idea often tossed about to account for the myriad alleged crash retrieval stories that form a staple of the flying saucer cult / lecture circuit.

Paul

 

[Trajanus]

Hi Paul, I completely agree that the ETH is only a theory.

Well as far as we laymen know for sure...

if we are indeed being visited by ET then they do not necessarily have to be thousands of years more advanced than we.

It is true that, since our progress is occurring at an accelerating rate, a great deal may be achieved in a surprisingly brief period. Against that, however, is the remarkable repetoire of the phenomenon, including cases of abrupt healing, suggesting that more than a few breakthroughs are required; they must've had ample time to fully develop all aspects of their knowledge.

 

[Paul Kimball]

The real point is, we have no base line for the timeline comparison. In my view, we should not assign a timeline in any way to "them" just as we shouldn't declare for certain what "they" are.

I meant to add that this is a very good point, and perhaps if I had the article to write over again, I would amend it in this regard.

PK

 

[Trajanus]

(and people like Friedman, who say they can't speculate as to alien motives, after infinite speculation as to them being here, are hypocritical as far as I'm concerned).

So you aren't so enamored of him after all.

I similarly do not credit the notion that we have the capability to shoot them down, an idea often tossed about to account for the myriad alleged crash retrieval stories that form a staple of the flying saucer cult / lecture circuit.

Lol, the author of Revealed!...sure concurs.

 

[Paul Kimball]

So you aren't so enamored of him after all.

No, I have many points of disagreement with Stan. What I was saying, however, was that he's no disinfo agent... and that there is no objective evidence for that assertion.

Paul

 

[Trajanus]

What I was saying, however, was that he's no disinfo agent... and that there is no objective evidence for that assertion.

Your opinion.

 

[Paul Kimball]

Your opinion.

Yes, but with respect, but until you can show some real proof, and not just idle supposition and innuendo, it's a more informed opinion than yours. The burden of proof is on you to show that he, or anyone else, is a disinfo agent, and not the other way around.

 

[Trajanus]

The burden of proof is on you to show that he, or anyone else, is a disinfo agent, and not the other way around.

Well I don't know, considering how numerous they appear to be, maybe the burden of proof should be on their advocates. Lol. Anyway, as I posted earlier, one recent work, albeit just a POD production, cites at least three reasons to suspect Friedman. For one thing, it suggests a parallel between Friedman's support for the reverse engineering idea i.e. the primary notion of the charlatan Corso.
http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?catalogid=28945

 

[rainey day woman]

Well I don't know, maybe intelligent life is possible under circumstances significantly different from those here. Imagine a roughly Earth-sized moon orbiting close to a gas giant within the biosphere of a star smaller than our sun. Even if the planet never experienced a Thea type event--assuming such an event was indeed critical to habitability--it might derive sufficient protection from the magnetic field of the gas giant. And, whereas a planet close to another star would normally be tidally locked, this one could evade its effects by orbiting the gas giant, so that it wouldn't have a permanent night side.

Sorry for taking so long to reply. Been away.

Anyway, I do agree with what you say. Nevertheless, these are still 'special' circumstances. I suspect that the hope that we will find an earth sized rock in the Goldilocks zone is simply the wrong way to go about looking for intelligent life. BTW, I would include a brontosaurus with a brain the size of a hen's egg as being intelligent as far as this question is concerned. At least, there is the possibility of evolving inteeligence up as far as our own or beyond if an organism has evloved as far as that already. Anything bigger than microbes creates the possibility of an intelligent outcome.

Information, or disinformation? Revealed!....makes a case that reports of this kind belong in the latter category.

I am too old & cynical to be on 1 side or the other. I have certainly no desire to mislead anyone. If I feel that I can contribute something useful then I will endeavour to do so. Otherwise, I just don't bother.

 

[rainey day woman]

We will know in a matter of years whether Earth is rare or not, ala Kepler Mission. And if NASA finds a plethora of similar planets in the habitable zone, then we will surmise that Earth is not rare and the potential for life, even intelligence, is quite probable. And you mean the "Drake" equation right?

Yep, I meant the Drake Equation. As previously stated, earth sized rocks in the Golidilocks Zone means nothing. A needle in a haystack.

The travel may be beyond our comprehension at the time being, but that doesn't preclude the attainability of such travel. We need to crack this one if we intend on moving into space.

Humanity will attempt to achive inter-stellar travel. It will not be in our life time, but it will be attempted. Ultimately, if humanity is to survive, we will have to move to new premises.

Are you talking about the Japan airlines encounter or some other Korean airliner. And could you provide a link for this?

Possibly, It came straight off the keyboard. 1 of the few credible witnesses that Dr Greer assembled was a senior official in the air traffic authority within the USA. I'm not going to go looking for it. A minor argument.

What?!?! How do you know this with the certainty that you seem to have??

It is just too similar to the Welsh incident. How did USA military personnel get to the site in such a short period of time? Were they 'beamed' there by Scotty?

Never heard this, could you provide some more info? Epp designed flying saucer steering?? And his sole account means that Keyhoe was a disinfo agent?? thanks, this is just hard to digest without some verification.

Again, I'm not going to trawl through hundreds of pages for this. If you are interested then Google 'Andreas Epp'. You will probably find an English translation of him quoting this on 'Real Flying Saucers'. I suspect it's probably on UTube.

 

[rainey day woman]

No, it doesn't. For all of my disagreements with Stan, I have known the man for over 30 years, and I will stake my reputation on the fact that he is 100% sincere in his beliefs, and in no way some sort of disinformation agent or government operative. Just because someone once worked for the government, or for private companies with government contracts, or is friends with someone who worked for the CIA, for example (as I was friends with Karl Pflock), doesn't make them some sort of dark agent. With respect, that kind of careless, unsubstantiated conspiratorial mindset is part of what makes ufology a laughingstock within the mainstream.

Paul

I think he is probably sincere in what he does. I suspect that he probably knows more than what he lets on. I have no idea what his motives are, but I just find the chronology of his life to be a bit strange.

Don't get me wrong, His CV just doesn't add up as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, I have lead an unusual life myself and have changed course on many occasions.

What was he looking for in the archives, that lead him to Roswell????

 

[Ezechiel]

The worst thing about all of this, however, is the hypocrisy that you find with many of the supposedly more serious members of the “ETFact group”. They are convinced that aliens are here, and interacting with humanity, but they are vocal critics of “exopolitics”, which simply takes the ETFact position to its logical conclusion.
Exopolitics, according to Dr. Michael Salla, one of its best known proponents, is:
“is the study of the key individuals, political institutions and processes associated with extraterrestrial life... exopolitics focus[es] on the political implications of an extraterrestrial presence known to clandestine quasi-governmental entities that keep knowledge of this presence secret from the general public, elected political officials & even senior military officials. The supporting evidence is overwhelming in scope and shows that decision making is restricted on a strict 'need to know' basis.”

Rephrasing
...is the expression of extreme frustration from an intellectually open group of people that dare challenge the comfortable truths (mostly religion based) that provide stability, security as well as protect the system from potentially violent counter productive emotional/existential shocks whose source cannot be controlled.

In less than 50 years we've been able to establish our relative position within our own galaxy, take inventory of nearby stars and start counting planets around them. Building the bridge between this fact and a full blown disclosure of multi-racial intergalactic presence roaming within our solar system is an impossible quantum jump at this time.

IMHO, a couple more generations of Star Wars, Star Trek, Alien vs Predator... should finally make disclosure possible (Holywood is training our minds). My best bet is that disclosure is held back out of respect for the elders and the belief system that has supported them through their difficult lives on this planet. Introducing an alien presence at this point would be unnecessarily troubling and disrespectful. However, the next generation is ready.

There is an intellectual hierarchy on this planet, no question. I expect an equivalent hierarchy regulating/protecting emerging civilizations on a galactic scale. A presence that has allowed our emergence and unique development.

Astronomical data supports this and the age of the universe makes it obvious. Making judgments on space travel and speed of light limitations is premature as we are still in the infancy of modern physics. I personally expect a full range of civilizations whose evolution may be up to 10 billion earth years.

As for communicating and exchanging with the top of that external intellectual hierarchy... not yet, and not for a long while. We haven't done all our homework yet and the global village is in turmoil.

 

[TClaeys]

Yep, I meant the Drake Equation. As previously stated, earth sized rocks in the Golidilocks Zone means nothing. A needle in a haystack.

Pretty much any astronomer would disagree with you. It's the reason we spent millions of dollars putting this thing in space. One thing we know about life here is that we need liquid water. Why not look for the same conditions elsewhere?? Seems pretty logical. Earth is the only template we have right now. Either way it certainly doesn't mean nothing. What would you recommend??

Possibly, It came straight off the keyboard. 1 of the few credible witnesses that Dr Greer assembled was a senior official in the air traffic authority within the USA. I'm not going to go looking for it. A minor argument.

The reason I ask is because you seem to have a certainty about some of these cases, but you don't even know what ones you are talking about. As Freidman would say, "Don't bother me with the facts, my minds made up". I'm just asking who, what, where, when (the facts).

It is just too similar to the Welsh incident. How did USA military personnel get to the site in such a short period of time? Were they 'beamed' there by Scotty?

Vargihna is a case that goes from "This is the best known UFO case ever" to "We cannot verify virtually anything". Until I see some valid military witness testimony or other evidence it really is a non-case based on myth and the rumor mill. There is no (or at best little)evidence that it even happened.

 

[Astroboy]

...at least three reasons to suspect Friedman. For one thing, it suggests a parallel between Friedman's support for the reverse engineering idea i.e. the primary notion of the charlatan Corso.

To suggest that just because Friedman believes reverse engineering is going on and that this is some how related to Corso is absurd as a reason to see Friedman as a disinfo agent.

Reverse engineering is standard procedure for all military establishments who have decent scientific research capabilities and has been practiced long before Friedman or Corso came along. The British reverse engineered the German Enigma coding machine to break their code during WWII. The Germans reverse engineered the Russian T-34 tank to build the Panther. The Russians reverse engineered the B-29 bomber to build the replica Tupolev TU-4. We reverse engineered numerous Mig fighters including the famous Mig 25 Foxbat.

This doesn't mean we will or can replicate everything. The Russians slavishly copied the B-29 down to the nuts and bolts but their manufacturing expertise was far behind the West and they could never build engines that matched the power, efficiency, or reliability of American planes. We reverse engineer competitor's machines to find their capabilities. Many captured Mig fighters were flight tested in Area 51.

Why does anyone act surprised that we would reverse engineer a UFO if we had one? What are we gonna do put it in the Smithsonian and gawk at it?