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The Myth of the ETH as the ETFact

  • Thread starter Thread starter Paul Kimball
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But how do you reverse engineer a craft that may be thousands of years ahead of us when it comes to technology? There may be some universal design or usability conventions, but that doesn't mean that the basic circuitry could be duplicated.

Imagine taking a MacBook Pro notebook computer back 200 years and consider how well they'd cope with it in those days.
 
Oh Gene you leave yourself open there with the comment about MacBooks.

I know what the ancestors of Gates would have done with it. You know a MacBook Pro is a good tool for kneading bread.
 
Gates is retired from Microscoft, but Steve Ballmer is scared to death of Macs. That's why he has to stage a misleading marketing campaign to compete.
 
Gates is retired from Microscoft, but Steve Ballmer is scared to death of Macs. That's why he has to stage a misleading marketing campaign to compete.

Id love to be a Mac user, but In my mind the amount of effort required to unlearn years of PC programming(not code - mental habits) is too big a mountain to climb.

Ive only ever really fiddled around on a Mac a couple of times, and Im not even really sure how the OS/file systems etc are structured.

Ill probably just buy myself a Mac Book one day and force myself to over-write the deep mental pathways forged from years of PC indoctrination:D
 
But how do you reverse engineer a craft that may be thousands of years ahead of us when it comes to technology? There may be some universal design or usability conventions, but that doesn't mean that the basic circuitry could be duplicated.

Imagine taking a MacBook Pro notebook computer back 200 years and consider how well they'd cope with it in those days.

That is a great question, Gene, and this argument has been made on the show before.

I would put forth that it depends on the circumstances in which you acquire a piece of technology not just the time era. Certainly the level of technological accomplishment is relevant but let me get to that later.

There is a big difference in finding a piece of technology that is intact and functioning versus a crashed vehicle that is in pieces. Having a functioning device allows you to test it and see what it does in the first place. This will at least get you somewhere. If an intact Macbook found 200 years ago would still yield tantalizing results from just random button pushing. You just might hit the on button and the laptop would start up. You would realize that this amazing device creates and image on the screen using artificial light source that displays words and pictures. If you are lucky and the laptop is not password protected you might be able to touch various areas including the touchpad and realize that it corresponds to the movement of the arrow in screen and that icons change when passed over. You might even be able to launch an application by accident. Now all this may not be that useful you don't know what the hell Excel does but it would still yield lots of information even if you couldn't replicate it. Of course the battery might run out and you'll never get it to work again for a few hundred years but it wouldn't be a useless excercise.

If, on the other hand, the laptop came in pieces then you wouldn't learn a whole lot in terms of its function but you'd still learn something. You'll have discovered plastic. You'll have discovered a perfectly flat piece of clear glass. You'll have discovered perfectly uniform standard threaded screws as a way to attach parts. You'll have discovered stamped parts. You'll have discovered soldered parts. You get the point. Even if you didn't understand the underlying function you can still get new if not useful information. You could use the example of sending a 1970 Pinto back to the Roman ages and they could figure out a lot of useful information.

The last circumstance that is relevant is whether you have an instruction manual available or better yet a living person from the 21st century that can explain the functions of the device. Take an average person from this forum and send him/her back in time 200 years and the little technological knowledge that person possessed would have a huge impact on the sciences of that era.

With all that said I think it is a fairer comparison to deal with the Roswell scenario as whether reverse engineering is possible. Why? Because that is a huge difference in scientific knowledge between 2009 and 1809 compared to 1947 and 2147. Scientific methodologies were well established in 1947. We had chemical analysis, understanding of the fundamentals of physics, rudimentary computers, advanced metallorgy, understanding of fundamentals of aerodynamics including supersonic flight, created nuclear power, etc. None of these important scientific achievements existed in 1809 that would make reverse engineering a Macbooks even possible.

I propose that these circumstances also apply when dealing with reverse engineering a flying disc. Did we find it intact or in pieces? Did we capture a living pilot that can give us flight lessons and a basic lesson in alien science?

I do not believe the assumption that there is techonology that exists that we couldn't at least get some information from. We might not be able to build a saucer but that doesn't mean we wouldn't discover something new or useful. Our science may be incomplete or we may lack the materials to build such a device but something like the understanding of electromagnetism and electricity would be useful. If saucers used wires we could a least examine the how power or data is distributed. We may have a idea of the chemical composition of the materials used even if we can't manufacture the alloy. We may discover methods of bonding dissimilar materials even if we can't replicate it.

Of the previous examples were assuming technology of 1947. We have come a long way since and our ability to analyze material down to the atomic level is very good. Quantum physics is not just a theoretical science but used in real world application. Computers are vastly more powerful. Our manufacturing capabilities are reaching the nano scale.

Even if Roswell were untrue if we found a crashed disk today in any condition we would discover a wealth of information. The most important thing to remember though is that to show someone what is possible to to inspire them to try to do it.
 
But how do you reverse engineer a craft that may be thousands of years ahead of us when it comes to technology? There may be some universal design or usability conventions, but that doesn't mean that the basic circuitry could be duplicated.

Imagine taking a MacBook Pro notebook computer back 200 years and consider how well they'd cope with it in those days.

Having a alien craft in your possession is a paradigm shift. To reverse-engineer it, you need the premises of its operation and the physical concepts that support it. If it uses applied science that you haven't even formulated yet: Don't even think about it ! (unless you have a helpful alien engineer with a long life span ;))

A craft of any kind is the expression of the advancement of your science. Before you build it, you've mastered and tested physical laws in the environment in which the craft will operate.

You can't build an entire working craft... but if you break it up in small pieces and they happen to be using the same chemistry table, the components will reveal interesting characteristics that might be useful (fiber optics, kevlar, alloys... etc.)... thus the Corso account. This makes sense for a civilization relatively close to our technological level.

A civilization that is able to assemble machines that can manipulate the space/time fabric and operate at infinite power levels is something totally different. If these machines crashed they'd swallow up the entire solar system :D. Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorne speculate that some civlizations could build solar systems from scratch (The universe in a nutshell). Its amazing to think that we could actually be seeing artificial stars ;)
 
But how do you reverse engineer a craft that may be thousands of years ahead of us when it comes to technology? There may be some universal design or usability conventions, but that doesn't mean that the basic circuitry could be duplicated.

Imagine taking a MacBook Pro notebook computer back 200 years and consider how well they'd cope with it in those days.

Why would we assume that it'll always be flying discs that are that much more advanced than our current technology? If it is a big crowded universe then there are civilizations with a wide range of technologies that are far behind, equal, marginally ahead, and far ahead of us. What if it was only 200 years ahead of us? What if it came from a civilization that had just discovered faster than light travel and used it to study us because we remind them of a similar stage in development?

What if the discs used technology that had 70% technology that we would readily recognize and maybe only the actual propulsion system itself was 200 years ahead. Wouldn't we be able to replicate a lot of what is found if it is intact?

What proof is there of this hypothesis? The damn disks keep crashing! How advanced can they be?

I tend to disagree with often stated comments that we are a "bunch of talking monkeys". I think we can be quite clever. But not always in a way that is useful or safe.
 
Why would we assume that it'll always be flying discs that are that much more advanced than our current technology? If it is a big crowded universe then there are civilizations with a wide range of technologies that are far behind, equal, marginally ahead, and far ahead of us. What if it was only 200 years ahead of us? What if it came from a civilization that had just discovered faster than light travel and used it to study us because we remind them of a similar stage in development?

What if the discs used technology that had 70% technology that we would readily recognize and maybe only the actual propulsion system itself was 200 years ahead. Wouldn't we be able to replicate a lot of what is found if it is intact?

I tend to disagree with often stated comments that we are a "bunch of talking monkeys". I think we can be quite clever. But not always in a way that is useful or safe.

Absolutely ! You might have civilizations that have prioritized technological objectives such as light speed travel. But are behind us in other aspects. There's a whole spectrum of possbilities out there. A monolithic perception of the 'nuts and bolts' framework is totally wrong.

I like the chaotic experimentation idea ;) There's definitely some wacky constructs out there zooming accross the horizon with bolts popping out forcing emergency and catastrophic landings :D ... Remember the first cars LOL
 
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