The Official Paracast Political Thread! — Part Three

[Tyger]

The real fix is voter suppression, where they pull stunts to keep minorities and lower income people from voting. That's the reason why some state voter ID laws have been overturned in the courts. But they didn't overturn enough, and it's quite possible that millions of voters were excluded, and by demographics, these are mostly the people who would have voted Democratic. Some of this happened in 2000 in Florida. Look it up (you heard this on Thom Hartmann's show, Tyger).

Yes. I linked to the show. Yes, that is the 'real fix' - that absolves them from tinkering with the vote count and potentially getting caught. However, I wouldn't write off a hand-count revealing some stuff. Already interesting 'admissions' have been forthcoming - clearly looking like preemptive diclosures to avoid getting caught red-handed. Why else is Trump so upset with the re-count? That's what I wonder.

 

[marduk]

An update on the Carrier deal: The company is supposedly getting big tax incentives from the state of Indiana (where the incoming vice president was governor) to keep some of their employees. So, yes, bribery works.

Besides, it's not as if Carrier is the first company to do such a thing that causes governments to intervene.

So, you likely just paid more in terms of tax incentives as a bribe for bad jobs for people that will likely never pay anywhere near that money back in taxes.

Well done Trump!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Only the beginning.

 

[SRL+]

The article you supplied in your posting read that Carrier’s employees were offered free retraining through colleges for other occupations. The employees declined citing lack of income in-between retraining and employment.

Sounds as if Carrier, now through the state of Indiana is subsidized in a way.

In the long run, they would have been better off going for the retraining, instead of allowing the state of Indiana to Carrie them.

In the same article, a Carrier employee said they could now afford to send their children to college. The irony here is if Clinton, or, Sanders had been elected, educational institutions would likely have been more affordable for everyone.

 

[pixelsmith]

What in this speech by Elizabeth Warren is debatable?

Senator Elizabeth Warren: Floor speech on 21st Century Cures Act

TEXT: "Published on Nov 28, 2016: Senator Elizabeth Warren spoke about her concerns with the 21st Century Cures Act on the Senate floor on November 28, 2016."

Yes let's listen to the Native American. Lol.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Oh and one more thing: The right-wing noise machine is extolling the Carrier bailout to the skies, where cash incentives were offered to keep 1,000 jobs (but hundreds will still lose theirs).

In contrast, in 2009, Obama bailed out the auto industry saving over ONE MILLION JOBS. The right-wing noise machine screamed and yelled that it was the wrong move.

So when the Democrat saved jobs, it was bad. When the Republicans saved a fraction of that number of jobs, a very small fraction, it's the greatest news in the world.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

FYI: A few days back Jeff Davis complained when I deleted a message of his due to some material that might violate our Terms of Service. So that may be why he vanished.

But the same thing applies to everyone: Go easy on the personal attacks or the offenders will have messages deleted and may get warnings or temporary bans if the behavior continues.

Another member complained to me via an email about the same thing, that we use "lame" reasons to remove messages.

The rules are clearly displayed and have been in place for years:

Terms and Rules

In fact, we tend to be lax about enforcing them. We tolerate a lot before it goes over the line.

 

[matthew1977]

I know it is unlikely to change but for curiosities sake, lets say Hillary recount changes the outcome, would carrier back out of the deal to spite Hillary? more importantly, would it create a civil war? it seems too far in to reverse things imo.. he is already being aclimated to the new position. i am curious of the forums thoughts.

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[Gene Steinberg]

The Carrier deal is actually with the state of Indiana, which is giving them incentives to keep some of their employees here. This has nothing to do with the Federal government.

If Hillary wins on a recount, there will be riots.

 

[Randall]

Another member complained to me via an email about the same thing, that we use "lame" reasons to remove messages.

Funny, why I can't think of any examples? I should be able to think of at least ONE ... lol

In fact, we tend to be lax about enforcing them. We tolerate a lot before it goes over the line.

This is the most reasonable forum I've ever been on. I recently signed-up with the Skeptic forum, and every post has to be moderated before publishing.

 

[Han]

I have had messages in this very thread deleted, but upon reflection it was for the common good, and I took it for that.

So no complaints here.

I believe that @Jeff Davis disappeared for other reasons...................

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I prefer not to speculate. The communication I had with him was strictly about deleted messages, but there were none after I received that communication, and he hasn't posted since. Oh well, maybe he didn't like what I said, that I would continue to enforce the Terms without regard to anyone's opinion.

 

[Han]

As it should be.

 

[Tyger]

I know it is unlikely to change but for curiosities sake, lets say Hillary recount changes the outcome, would carrier back out of the deal to spite Hillary? more importantly, would it create a civil war? it seems too far in to reverse things imo.. he is already being aclimated to the new position. i am curious of the forums thoughts.

If Hillary wins on a recount, there will be riots.

I have been 'impressed' with how cool the Trump supporters are regarding the law that states it is he/she with the most electoral votes who wins. It's the law, they say. Deal with it. Okay. What happens if to fulfill that law, Clinton must be president? Will Trump supporters be as 'cool'? I think we know they won't.

This I know: I wouldn't want to be Hillary stepping into that firestorm. In some ways, letting it all play out, with Trump being impeached, would be a 'better' scenario, but not by much.

The damage Trump will have done in just months of his presidency will be profound - and with the way the Congress - and certain Judicial arms of government - are now stacked, it's likely improbable that Trump would ever be at risk of removal imo. In fact, I have a hunch that the threat of removal will be one of the ways in which Trump is controlled, more or less.

He's a survivor - he'll be slippery, and he's got that Trumpland base to threaten with and wield about at his will - yet still, he has significant head-wind (with Congress). What we are seeing may be Trump toeing the line, in fact. His appointments are outrageous - yet his followers aren't blinking an eye (it appears). Who, I wonder, is really pulling the strings?

Consider this - from Brainwrap -

Eighty. Thousand. People.
LINK: UPDATE: EIGHTY. THOUSAND. PEOPLE.

Posted: Thursday Dec 01, 2016 · 9:12 AM PST
Pennsylvania statewide with the Philadelphia tally now complete:
Trump 2,961,875
Clinton 2,915,440

Until now, the Pennsylvania vote gap was hovering around the 70,000 mark depending on your source. If this tweet is accurate, it just dropped to 46,435.

According to the Cook Report spreadsheet (which hasn’t been updated with this yet...it was posted less than 20 minutes ago), here’s where things stand:

• 
  
  • WI: Hillary down 22,177
  • MI: Hillary down 10,704
  • PA: Hillary down 46,435
  • Total: 79,316

80,000 people.

EIGHTY. THOUSAND. PEOPLE.

That’s the size of Farmington Hills, Michigan.

That’s the size of the AT&T Stadium in Arlington, Texas.

Or, put another way: She just needed to flip the votes of 40,000 people in those 3 states.

40,000 people.

Stunning.
​

 

[Tyger]

Well, Campers, it is now official: Hillary Clinton's win is at 2.5 million - and counting. Just under a 2% margin.

If ever there was evidence that every vote counts it is the above numbers. If ever there was evidence that Trump is not what this country wants, it is the above numbers. Factor in voter suppression and that message is in spades. Our country has been well and good stolen. Question is: will we ever get it back?

For those interested in the on-going vote count, there is this site - LINK: 2016 National Popular Vote Tracker

Current numbers are -
2016 US Presidential ElectionPopular Vote (still being counted)
Hillary Clinton (D) 65,228,264 48.1%
Donald Trump (R) 62,673,688 46.2%

Difference is 2,554,576 - that's 2.5 million, just under 2% - with voter suppression. Clinton won.

 

[Tyger]

I do not understand the 'logic'.

Teen becomes seventh 'faithless elector' to protest Trump as president-elect
Electoral college member Levi Guerra from Washington state pledges to break ranks with party affiliation to join renegade group’s attempt to unseat Trump - November 30, 2016
LINK: Teen becomes seventh 'faithless elector' to protest Trump as president-elect

TEXT: In modern convention, the electoral college system has been read to mean that the electors vote as one block within each state on a winner-takes-all basis according to which presidential candidate won the popular vote within that state, (apart from Maine and Nebraska which split the vote partly by Congressional district).

But this year’s protesters disagree. Sisneros said that he studied deeply the history of the electoral college and had concluded that the system allowed for each elector to bring their own moral compass to bear on deciding how to vote. “Electors weren’t intended to be pledged or bound to any one candidate, they have their own conscience.”

The seven Hamilton electors take a similar view, that the way the system was conceived by the founding fathers was to allow for the moral intervention by electoral college members precisely as a way of dealing with the kind of existential threat posed by a Trump figure. They cite the statement by Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers: “The process of the Electoral College affords a moral certainty, that the office of the President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.”

Bret Chiafolo, 37, from Washington state was cofounder of the Hamilton electors. He told the Guardian that the “founding fathers made it very clear that electors should not elect an unfit president. That’s what I and the other Hamilton electors are trying to do – to work out what ‘unfit’ means and to educate our fellow electors of both main parties about that.”

Along with Guerra and Robert Satiacum, who has also indicated that he intends not to vote for Clinton, Chiafolo faces a $1,000 fine from Washington state for not following party ranks in the electoral college vote. He said he was considering bringing a lawsuit in federal court to challenge the fine, following the argument that any attempt to prevent electors voting according to their conscience was unconstitutional.

Chiafolo predicted that the rebellion could go much further than the seven who are currently on board. He said that by his reckoning there were between 50 and 100 electors across the country weighing up whether to vote their own way as a protest against Trump, though he conceded that his estimate was not backed by hard evidence.
​

 

[Tyger]

Unbelievable.

The No-BS Guide To The 2016 Recount... (w/Guest: Greg Palast)

TEXT: "Published on Dec 1, 2016: Thom speaks with investigative reporter Greg Palast about the 2016 election and the recount being organized by Jill Stein."

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Certain people who posted wacky stories about Clinton here during the campaign may not realize they might be repeating Russian propaganda:

The reality behind Russia's fake news - CNNPolitics.com

 

[Randall]

I have had messages in this very thread deleted, but upon reflection it was for the common good, and I took it for that. So no complaints here.

 

[matthew1977]

Well, Campers, it is now official: Hillary Clinton's win is at 2.5 million - and counting. Just under a 2% margin.

If ever there was evidence that every vote counts it is the above numbers. If ever there was evidence that Trump is not what this country wants, it is the above numbers. Factor in voter suppression and that message is in spades. Our country has been well and good stolen. Question is: will we ever get it back?

For those interested in the on-going vote count, there is this site - LINK: 2016 National Popular Vote Tracker

Current numbers are -
2016 US Presidential ElectionPopular Vote (still being counted)
Hillary Clinton (D) 65,228,264 48.1%
Donald Trump (R) 62,673,688 46.2%

Difference is 2,554,576 - that's 2.5 million, just under 2% - with voter suppression. Clinton won.

per link below she only got one additional vote from Wisconsin recount (so far)... whoopie

First Day Of Wisconsin Recount Nets Hillary One Vote

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