Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
Amen George!
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The Roswell Slides Have Been Leaked Online
- Thread starter BoyintheMachine
- Start date
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Yes, he is serious about this, and he leaves the door open to further research on the body in the slides [to the extent that aspects of its physiology can be discerned, which is a limited extent given the fact that the body itself is no longer available for research]. Further research, to be adequate, would have to include studies of other mummies physically available to scientifically trained individuals in several disciplines.
Assumptions are being made in the arguments of ufologists and readers who follow them as to whether this body, when it was available for scientific research, ever actually was studied by physiologists, forensic anthropologists, evolutionists, and other skilled researchers. If such research was done, there ought to be written records of it somewhere. Also lacking at this point is a detailed provenance concerning this body. The fact that the body was identified as that of a 'two-year-old boy' by someone working in a small museum at Mesa Verde or at the White museum in White City, NM, does not tell us who made that identification or whether it was a valid identification. I think it's likely that if anyone is investigating these matters at present it is Anthony Bragalia. There may be others pursuing this investigation, and we can hope there are.
I'm no more pleased than you are that it is Jaime Mausson who seems to be the dominant spokesman for withholding judgment on the nature of the body photographed in the slides. Rather than react to him and his pronouncements, however, I think we have to listen to the scientists he consulted and wait for {indeed call for} further analyses to be undertaken by biological, physiological, and medical experts and experts in the fields of anthropology and archaeology who specialize in the subject of mummies and various processes of mummification that have produced the total set of mummies still extant in the world and available for research.
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Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
May I ask you ..
Is the body in the slides a mummy or an alien?
What do you see? And why?
SRL+
Paranormal Adept
#1004 & still counting.....
George wrote:
Only if you let them, George. It's true that they appear to have taken deception and deviousness to new levels for decades now. But you have a very high hill to climb if you intend to provide evidence that they were responsible for engineering all aspects of the Roswell slides and the association of the slides with the Rays in the late 1940s in the Roswell region.
There are also reasons why you will likely never get Lundberg et al to 'confess' to engineering all this confusion (and thus your burden of evidence). In the first place, as you yourself have recognized, nothing these guys say can ever be taken seriously as authentic and straightforward human speech or writing, as expressing commitment to 'truth value'. Their goal as disinformationists has always been to confuse issues rather than to clarify them.
In the second place, were they to 'confess' to having engineered the Roswell slides themselves and/or the subsequent confusion about them, they might finally subject themselves to real consequences in the real world. I'd actually like to see this happen. They'd defend their actions in terms of a 'social or sociological experiment' rather than a hoax, and for most people involved in the study of anomalies those words would turn to dust in the hoaxers' mouths.
Only if you let them, George. It's true that they appear to have taken deception and deviousness to new levels for decades now. But you have a very high hill to climb if you intend to provide evidence that they were responsible for engineering all aspects of the Roswell slides and the association of the slides with the Rays in the late 1940s in the Roswell region.
There are also reasons why you will likely never get Lundberg et al to 'confess' to engineering all this confusion (and thus your burden of evidence). In the first place, as you yourself have recognized, nothing these guys say can ever be taken seriously as authentic and straightforward human speech or writing, as expressing commitment to 'truth value'. Their goal as disinformationists has always been to confuse issues rather than to clarify them.
In the second place, were they to 'confess' to having engineered the Roswell slides themselves and/or the subsequent confusion about them, they might finally subject themselves to real consequences in the real world. I'd actually like to see this happen. They'd defend their actions in terms of a 'social or sociological experiment' rather than a hoax, and for most people involved in the study of anomalies those words would turn to dust in the hoaxers' mouths.
I don't know what the body in the slides is. Nobody else knows either at this point. It's obvious that many people want to find out, though, and the only path toward further knowledge is further research, broad research as I suggested above, which need not involve an attempt to exhume that body.
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
I thought this slide story would finally die on the vine. It appears not. There isn't a scientist or researcher worth his or her salt that is going to touch this toxic subject unless mucho pesos are dangled in front of them.
Let's review some 'facts.' Schmitt has apologized for his role. Dolan has run away from the subject. Dew and Carey have not been heard from. Maussan (a known hoaxer) is still beating the drum. They have what they want, (everyone's money.)
Simple software determined what the placard said. Enough already.
Let's review some 'facts.' Schmitt has apologized for his role. Dolan has run away from the subject. Dew and Carey have not been heard from. Maussan (a known hoaxer) is still beating the drum. They have what they want, (everyone's money.)
Simple software determined what the placard said. Enough already.
Last Laugh
Skilled Investigator
Philip Mantle sent the slide to a handful of experts on mummies. Below are the responses of two (from Kevin Randle's Blog)
"I confirm that the photo is of a mummy of a child, possibly Peruvian or even Egyptian."
Salima Ikram
Professor of Egyptology
American University in Cairo
"Okay, it is a mummy, but very hard to tell if it Egyptian, South American or European. I see no wrappings of any kind, it appears to be a child or youth. Do you have a provenance on the slide??? That may help the determination."
Cordially,
S.J. Wolfe
Senior Cataloger and Serials Specialist
American Antiquarian Society
Director of the EMINA (Egyptian Mummies in North America) Project. Here is the link to the website EMINA (Egyptian Mummies in North America)
And for the record, humans have a total of 12 ribs on each side, though 5 of them are so-called false ribs (floating ribs).
So there are 7 true ribs on each side of humans. Is Mr. O'Connor really a doctor?
"I confirm that the photo is of a mummy of a child, possibly Peruvian or even Egyptian."
Salima Ikram
Professor of Egyptology
American University in Cairo
"Okay, it is a mummy, but very hard to tell if it Egyptian, South American or European. I see no wrappings of any kind, it appears to be a child or youth. Do you have a provenance on the slide??? That may help the determination."
Cordially,
S.J. Wolfe
Senior Cataloger and Serials Specialist
American Antiquarian Society
Director of the EMINA (Egyptian Mummies in North America) Project. Here is the link to the website EMINA (Egyptian Mummies in North America)
And for the record, humans have a total of 12 ribs on each side, though 5 of them are so-called false ribs (floating ribs).
So there are 7 true ribs on each side of humans. Is Mr. O'Connor really a doctor?
David Rudiak posted the following at Kevin Randall's site today:
"I was trying to get better data for examination than just out-of-focus slides with limited viewing angle, such as likely archival National Park Service scientific/medical studies of the body, maybe photos and X-rays.
However, I am running into unexpected resistance on what I thought was a simple request. So I am being delayed. I'll keep you posted if anything turns up. I would also prefer more than one qualified expert take a look. If anyone knows a well-qualified medical pathologist, radiologist, etc., willing to way in, please do."
"I was trying to get better data for examination than just out-of-focus slides with limited viewing angle, such as likely archival National Park Service scientific/medical studies of the body, maybe photos and X-rays.
However, I am running into unexpected resistance on what I thought was a simple request. So I am being delayed. I'll keep you posted if anything turns up. I would also prefer more than one qualified expert take a look. If anyone knows a well-qualified medical pathologist, radiologist, etc., willing to way in, please do."
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
Well, Constance, it’s hard to prove exactly what Mirage Men are up to but there’s no doubt they expertly manipulate people’s perception --and their beliefs-- yet they themselves remain more or less invisible. I will list below my reasons for thinking that John Lundberg & Co. were indeed the master manipulators behind the Roswell Slides hoax and you can judge for yourself. It would of course help if you knew about the part that he and Rob Irving and Rod Dickinson played in Ray Santilli’s Alien Autopsy scam of 1995. Although John has never denied that himself directly, he often gets associates of his like Philip Mantle (who is lurking somewhere here) to deny that he had any part in it. Best ignore what Philip says.
Meanwhile --as regards the Roswell Slides-- there has been a complete change of gear since Maussan’s May 5th UFO Special Event and observers are now dividing into two camps: the Alien Believers and the Mummy Believers. One can’t help thinking that there has been further manipulation by the unseen hoaxmasters and this time it has been done using the alleged deblurring of that unlikely placard which, it seems, can carry whatever message you like. This nicely diverts attention from exposing the authors of the original hoax or ever discovering the truth. As I said in my posting yesterday I don’t believe the “corpse” is either an alien OR a mummy.
Reasons to believe the "Roswell Slides" affair was an elaborate hoax produced by John Lundberg & Co.
1. "Hilda Ray" is almost certainly an insider joke name referring to RAY Santilli's Alien HILDA. We are told some of the slides were marked with the name "Hilda Ray" and it is quite apparent that a fictional story was woven around a real Hilda Ray of Midland, TX, who allegedly was a friend of Mamie Eisenhower back in 1947. Jaime Maussan and Adam Dew's story of how the (real) Hilda Ray allegedly came to be shown the alleged alien body(s) from the alleged flying saucer crash at Roswell in White Sands, NM, is entirely ridiculous. What an amazing million -to-one chance of this Hilda Ray's supposed connection to the alleged Roswell Alien corpse if there was no connection with Ray Santilli's alien! (Alien HILDA was, of course, the special effects dummy made 20 years ago by John Lundberg and Rod Dickinson.)
2. Jaime Maussan was hugely impressed by Santilli's "Alien Autopsy" film and showed it and praised it on many occasions at UFO conferences and on Mexican TV channels assuring his followers that it was genuine proof of ET visitation and that a UFO with aliens on board had indeed crashed at Roswell. He was also impressed that Santilli had disclosed this to the world and the media on May 5th (1995) which, being Cinco de Mayo, is a day of national celebration in Mexico though I doubt if Santilli was aware of that. From that time on Jaime Maussan wanted his own genuine Roswell alien and probably dreamed of presenting such “final proof of the alien presence” to the world on Cinco de Mayo in Mexico's huge National Auditorium in Mexico City. He was completely undeterred by the conclusion reached by me and a hundred other ufologists years ago that the Alien Autopsy was a complete hoax and nothing would stop him holding his sensational UFO Special Event there on May 5, 2015. Where to find "genuine" photographic evidence of a real alien? Obviously he knew that he should turn to John Lundberg & Co. to obtain unassailable "evidence" of a genuine Roswell Alien.
3. One day I had a strong feeling that if John Lundberg was involved with this hoax he would be watching forum threads about the Roswell Slides such as that on The Paracast. So at the end of posting a long reply to you on April 17th I inserted --on the spur of the moment-- the words: "Are you reading this, John? (If so, please say ‘Hi’)" John Lundberg pops up replying within just a few minutes. I had had no contact with John for over 15 years and when he first used the name Hilda Ray for the Roswell Slides he probably assumed I was dead by now or had lost interest in UFOs. That there was still someone around like me who remembered that Santilli's alien was nicknamed HILDA in 1995 may have come as quite a surprise for him.
4. This was the first appearance (as far as I can ascertain) of John Lundberg on this Roswell Slides thread on The Paracast and his chosen avatar read "THIS IS A PERCEPTION MANAGEMENT DEVICE". He gave himself the name "Ostension" on the forum and we exchanged postings openly for a bit discussing his 2013 documentary film "Mirage Men" which I told him was well made and utterly compelling. No reluctance to discuss that.
5. "PERCEPTION MANAGEMENT" is exactly what John has described with reference to his business (circlemakers.org) which includes (although he doesn’t call it this) circlefaking, ufofaking, and alienfaking. He joked that I once called him a "poodlefaker" (which I did) so I knew immediately it was him. The usual target for his circlefaking, ufofaking and alienfaking productions is --unsurprisingly-- crop circle believers, UFO believers and (Roswell) Alien believers. I call all of these activities deception although again that's not a term he likes to use.
6. "Ostension" has only one meaning. Check it out at www.the freedictionary.com/ostension and you will see that is exactly what John must have been attempting to achieve for Jaime Maussan by the display of a "genuine" Roswell Alien (photos only, I fear) at the Mexico City Special Event. This was surely intended to be presentation of an extraterrestrial entity made real for followers and believers of the world's #1 UFO prophet, Jaime Maussan. There is no other plausible interpretation of why John chose to call himself "Ostension" on the forum.
7. When I attempted to discuss the Roswell Slides and exactly what John was up to in that connection he went quiet and evidently was not prepared to talk about it openly. That has been his policy for years as regards his circlemaking and his "Perception Management" business. Neither confirm nor deny --and best of all say nothing. Nothing further has been heard from "Ostension" on this thread. After what most observers in the US perceived as an "epic fail" for Jaime Maussan's UFO Special Event in Mexico City on May 5th there was a sudden change of gear regarding the Roswell Slides as I said above. Could this have resulted from the potential exposure of who the actual hoaxmaster was on this very forum?
8. Archskeptic Robert Sheaffer of badufos.blogspot.com ran my piece titled "The Roswell Slides Depict Alien MATILDA" on his blogsite on May 1st, 2015. He then wrote to ask John Lundberg what he had to say about it. Robert says: ' [Lundberg] might have replied something like: "I had nothing to do with either the Santilli Alien, or the Roswell Slides." Instead, he chose to reply in poetic and evasive terms, which I read as acknowledging that he was involved in those matters, but was unwilling to say so publicly. But one never knows what is to be taken seriously when dealing with Mirage Men'.
9. John declined an invitation to appear on The Paracast and be interviewed about Mirage Men by Gene and Chris. The reason that he declined was almost certainly because he would have been also questioned about the Roswell Slides and the part which he played in the affair.
[ And don’t forget, Constance, that John is still reading every word of this even if he doesn’t say anything. No one will ever know the full truth since Mirage Men NEVER, NEVER, NEVER confess, come clean, or even pretend to agree to tell you the whole truth ……………. George ]
Last Laugh
Skilled Investigator
This would be one of the most baroque hoaxes ever, were it true what you say.
I still think much of what you say could be true without having to invoke a dummy. It could still be a genuine mummy and the placard could be real. Seems more parsimonious to me than a dummy that's indistinguishable from an actual known mummy.
I still think much of what you say could be true without having to invoke a dummy. It could still be a genuine mummy and the placard could be real. Seems more parsimonious to me than a dummy that's indistinguishable from an actual known mummy.
I can certainly help thinking that. Are you suggesting that the RSRG needed help from the Mirage Men to manipulate computer software in order to cast the language on the placard into doubt? So Nab Lator (or whatever his ostensible name is) was really the super-clever prankster John Lundberg, throwing the slides debate into confusion to distract everyone's attention from him as possible stage manager of the whole Roswell slides investigation and its checkered conclusions? And moreover it was Jaime Mausson who hired Lundberg to produce the hoax in the first place? Wow, you really are dazzled by what you take to be the MM's superhuman powers of perception management.
It's just crossed my mind again that the Mirage Men might have hired you to maintain the illusion of their vast powers of manipulation.
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Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
constance look at the pics tell me what you see...
![mummies (14)[2].jpg](https://www.theparacast.com/forum/data/attachments/4/4828-ab511aab439e1623c1c4291cf43a72ab.jpg?hash=q1Eaq0OeFi "mummies (14)[2].jpg")
Last Laugh
Skilled Investigator
Wait, so now the RSRG and 'Nab Lator' are in on the whole thing?
And vesve, what's your point? I'm guessing it's that the mummy you posted looks more human than the one from Mesa Verde.
Once again, here's a mummy from the smithsonian (top) that looks almost identical to the one below.
Note how the top of the rib cage is caved in the same way, potentially hiding a few ribs? And see the clavicle is exactly where the cloth is on the one below?
And vesve, what's your point? I'm guessing it's that the mummy you posted looks more human than the one from Mesa Verde.
Once again, here's a mummy from the smithsonian (top) that looks almost identical to the one below.
Note how the top of the rib cage is caved in the same way, potentially hiding a few ribs? And see the clavicle is exactly where the cloth is on the one below?
Psychedelic_Alchemist
Paranormal Maven
Some people can't tell their arsehole from their earhole. If they want to see aliens, then they will, no matter how hard reality hits them in the face.
Han
piscator ψ
I agree and disagree with this post, but it has a resounding truth to it.
For instance I do not agree that the mummy vs dummy issue is important, nor is the placard itself.
But using the logic presented, I can certainly beleive that the placard was intended to be read by the sceptics (after release and collection of money by the hoaxers). why not? this does not mean for one second that anybody in the RSRG was "in on anything" other than trying to establish the truth, which is the bait that hoaxers use. It can be a lure (rubber worm or dummy in this case) or a live bait (real mummy) but their hooks are just as barbed, and they are still going to catch us. In my case, I didn't take the bait I was tickled*
It is not a nice thought to think that we are so easily and willingly deceived, I can testify to how these matters can cause us to lose our calm and abandon rational thinking. Its a high stakes game, but remember when you enter a casino, its at your own risk, and the house generally wins, their aim is to keep you at the table, the longer you play the more you will lose, but in truth: their is no analogy that can describe accurately enough, the rules, or lack of when it comes to hoaxing, its a fluid dynamic, self perpetuating force.
They start the fire, and we feed the fire and fan the flames, with our desire for knowledge being the fuel.
The problem is, like the boy who cried wolf, ears will not be lent, eyes will be turned away and hearts and minds closed.
The proverb is beware of Greeks baring gifts, it is taken from one of my favourite stories, and it shames me to admit that I forgot, the basic principle.
The Roswell slides are the horse, and Trojans are the sceptics and the believers, the Greeks are the hoaxers counting their spoils of war.
The horse was wheeled in by all of us collectively, we all argued amongst ourselves, as they picked our pockets.
Hats off to the weasels, they did a good job, I have to admit that.
But it does leave a sour taste, and I am sure that potential interest and investigation in to the "paranormal" has been lost due to their antics.
The most ironic thing is that I have been saying from day one, how can you tell anything from two blurry slides, yet I have invested a good deal of time and effort in the very slides I dismissed. (and still do).
Any publicity is good publicity, and a lot of the articles I have seen have photographs or other media owned by dew or slidebox even "negative" stories, the point is he is getting payed either way!
They put the twins who shall not be named, to shame. this was a professional job. But any idea of it being justified as a social experiment should be weighed against the harm that it has, and will do to the already battered reputation of those interested "ufo/uap/paranormal/etc".
I don't think it has anything to do with learning, its about dollars, the only thing I can do is dust myself off and move on, but I have learned a valuable lesson, or rather been reminded of one, and that is never underestimate you opponent, I thought the battle was won when the placard was deciphered, I now think that was only a minor wound, and probably helped with the division of the pot, a few big players folded their hands, and went home, leaving two players at the table, who both own the casino, and have already agreed to split the winnings.........................................................
The slides are going in the meier/reed/greer box where they belong.
There are far more fantastic things to ponder.
SRL+
Paranormal Adept
As a subplot, if there were to be some connection between Lundberg & Co., Dew, Dew’s friend, and friend’s sister, it may be worthwhile in pursuing. There is little doubt that John is associated with some highly talented artists. Why wouldn’t they create a model that looked more like what is considered as ET rather than what has been presented?
Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
"Why wouldn't they create a model more like ET?" Perhaps to cover their bases as far as total fraud. The "oh it was just old mummy photo- move on" thinking from those who actually paid money for the presentation.
SRL+
Paranormal Adept
What difference does it make, as it was already pawned off as ET to begin with?
So, in other words, Lundberg created as what appears to be a two year old child mummy in order to cover his tracks?
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Keep in mind that good hoaxers interested in Ostension have a goal to perpetuate a myth and not have it discovered as fraud in 24-48 hours after the primary evidence goes public. For me this discussion about Lundberg as part of this event is total red herring territory and only seven to obfuscate the truth and minimize blame and shame for those directly responsible for harming the field.