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The Roswell Slides Have Been Leaked Online

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Your speculations about the intentions of Lundberg's Circlemakers seem to me to be based on little familiarity with and understanding of their activities over several decades in the marginalization of crop circles as a subject meriting serious scientific investigation. George certainly knows a great deal about that and, while he currently seems to be somewhat overwhelmed by what he perceives as their hoaxing skills, he could enlighten us about what the Circlemakers actually sought to do and did, and how and why they did it. I saw and heard enough in three years in the CCCforum to recognize their intentions and methods, but George had a front-row seat. I hope he will enlighten us concerning the Lundberg et al history.
Well, as I said, Lundberg in interview stated quite clearly what his intention was and that was to make the best crop circle he possibly could with Team Satan. I think the humour and sardonic nature of this type of art is self-evident What people decided to do about that afterwards amounts to personal choice. Some chose to sit in the human made crop circle to meditate, to claim healing, to claim government disinformation and those are all very speculative activities in my mind. I know that some people feel that crop circles are the result of paranormal activity, and that others claim actual science proves these things. Count me as a non-believer to all of that. Like looking at the mummy in the slide, my mind says mummy, and when I see a really slick mathematical crop circle I see human agency. Call me crazy I guess.
 
George, whether he realizes it or not, is engaged in Ostension himself, as he keeps trying to point out the mythos of Lundberg as some kind of UFO megalomaniac who keeps trying to pull a fast one on people. He is engaged in that kind of speculation about untruths that do not actually speak to facts or truth. Lundberg, in interviews posted here on the forum identify clearly what his goal was - to make the best possible crop circles possible, to make really amazing and stunning crop circles, in fact, that some people would just have their minds blown away by and see them as emblematic gifts of truly paranormal proportions. George keeps trying to create a UFO hoaxer boogeyman, in the same way that the disclosure crew assumes that there is a governmental boogeyman that is trying to pull a fast one by denying everyone their god given right to have the goods on the whole UFO deal. But really, a cold look at the situation tells us that the government knows perhaps only a fraction more than the history of citizen investigation. Speculation is about speculation and trying to make claims and facts out of speculation serves only to fuel untruths. It dresses up ufology in more invisible clothes belonging to an emperor that might not even exist.


Come on, Burnt

I’ll address myself to you directly today as I can quite see that someone has been whispering in your ear rather than stating his position openly on this forum. I suggest that Philip Mantle has been telling you that I’m a delusional fool and that Lundberg, Irving and Dickinson had nothing to do with Santilli’s Alien Autopsy which he claims was mainly the work of John Humphreys and a magician called Spyros Melaris. Of course there were several people, like them, involved in the production of the infamous silent movie autopsy footage but be assured that John Lundberg and Rod Dickinson were the ones who created Alien HILDA.

At that time (May 5, 1995) Philip, who initially swallowed Santilli’s Autopsy scam hook, line and sinker, became closely associated with these alienfakers –not that they were admitting their role-- and consequently his book on the Alien Autopsy (the “authorized version”) contains no mention of their involvement. I’ll gladly tell you the whole story of that one day when I have time. Philip will also tell you that I have a history of animosity towards these three and that is the reason why I’ve invented this scenario that John Lundberg is behind the Roswell Slides. Bullshit! That is simply not true and I repeat that the only possible conclusion from the facts that I set out for Constance in posting #1010 on Wednesday is that this is another production by circlemakers.org Read what I said again and tell me just what you don’t believe there!

So, tell me whether or not Philip Mantle has been saying these things to you? If so, he will have been asked to do so by John Lundberg who is himself extremely reluctant to openly give a straight answer or be interviewed about his circlemaking and alienfaking business.

I’m not engaged in any kind of “ostension” as you suggest. I have stated repeatedly that my only interest in this ridiculous business is getting at the truth. Even you must agree that the Roswell Slides were undoubtedly a major planned deception and they were not created by Maussan himself. Don’t say that I am creating a “hoaxer boogeyman” –there is indeed a hoaxmaster out there though obviously there are quite a few other players in it with their own agendas. On this particular occasion John Lundberg has been caught with his pants down and naturally –short of actually giving a straight answer—he will make every attempt to cover up his role.
 
and you believed what he said. On what basis?
His crop circles look absolutely stunning. He seems to have a great talent and commitment to his artistic capacity. I can appreciate that kind of dedication to art and craft.

Do you believe that aliens made those crop circles?

What seems more believable?
 
Come on, Burnt

I’ll address myself to you directly today as I can quite see that someone has been whispering in your ear rather than stating his position openly on this forum. I suggest that Philip Mantle has been telling you that I’m a delusional fool and that Lundberg, Irving and Dickinson had nothing to do with Santilli’s Alien Autopsy which he claims was mainly the work of John Humphreys and a magician called Spyros Melaris. Of course there were several people, like them, involved in the production of the infamous silent movie autopsy footage but be assured that John Lundberg and Rod Dickinson were the ones who created Alien HILDA.

At that time (May 5, 1995) Philip, who initially swallowed Santilli’s Autopsy scam hook, line and sinker, became closely associated with these alienfakers –not that they were admitting their role-- and consequently his book on the Alien Autopsy (the “authorized version”) contains no mention of their involvement. I’ll gladly tell you the whole story of that one day when I have time. Philip will also tell you that I have a history of animosity towards these three and that is the reason why I’ve invented this scenario that John Lundberg is behind the Roswell Slides. Bullshit! That is simply not true and I repeat that the only possible conclusion from the facts that I set out for Constance in posting #1010 on Wednesday is that this is another production by circlemakers.org Read what I said again and tell me just what you don’t believe there!

So, tell me whether or not Philip Mantle has been saying these things to you? If so, he will have been asked to do so by John Lundberg who is himself extremely reluctant to openly give a straight answer or be interviewed about his circlemaking and alienfaking business.

I’m not engaged in any kind of “ostension” as you suggest. I have stated repeatedly that my only interest in this ridiculous business is getting at the truth. Even you must agree that the Roswell Slides were undoubtedly a major planned deception and they were not created by Maussan himself. Don’t say that I am creating a “hoaxer boogeyman” –there is indeed a hoaxmaster out there though obviously there are quite a few other players in it with their own agendas. On this particular occasion John Lundberg has been caught with his pants down and naturally –short of actually giving a straight answer—he will make every attempt to cover up his role.
Poppycock.

You have not connected anyone to anything here at all. I find Lundberg actually more direct than the speculative wranglings you have put forth here. And I think he's a pretty suspicious character, like most artists.
 
ps: Matt Williams has claimed a number of crop circles as his, but he was never a member of the Circlemakers group, formerly calling themselves Team Satan.
 
OK, I've read the thread from May 3 till now now. I have a few thoughts.

The Mummy

1) It was customary at different times and places all over the world to break bones to make bone collections fit burial jars, etc. There is nothing anomolous about the mummy's head being broken. Peruvian mummies are often broken up into sections, Turfan mummies have massive discoloration, etc.

2) Mesa Verde NP would have been one of the first in line to carry out the executive order to repatriate the remains of Native Americans to local surviving tribes. This would be the Utes there at one of the two Ute reservations around Mesa Verde NP.

3) Really old mummies can twist and even shrink over time as almost a geological layer. The Anasazi cliff dwellers in SW Colorado probably weren't there that early. The child was likely newborn, not 2 years old, my guess here. I think the "other" mummy Stanton F., Nick R. and Linda M. H. have found in White's City is also a newborn, with uncongealed skull, either smashed at birth or left to boil in the sun, or has a birth defect.

Why Maussan is a Scam Artist and a Conman

1) He lied about "Kodak experts" dating the slide to 1947. Never happened. Kodak is bankrupt. The "experts" he used were contacted independently and said they couldn't date that precisely from the paper or film-stock codes on the margins. The slides also appear--to me and perhaps others old enough to remember the slide-show as a form of community entertainment--cropped. There is something wrong about the dimensions, not to mention the poor resolution.

2) He seemingly claimed on Dreamland (unknowncountry.com free downlad, current show) some Roswell eye-witness had ID-ed the figure in the slide as very like the Roswell alien bodies he had seen. The eye witness is now dead, Maussan said. This sounds like bullshit to me. Why didn't he showcase this eyewitness testimony earlier? Who is it? He seems to say Eliazer somebody, but I can't make it out through his Mexican accent, and I'm not versed in Roswelliana at all.

3) He can see as well as anyone else it is a mummy in a glass case at some American SW roadside attraction.

Why Richard Dolan is No Longer the Voice of "Disclosure"

This is almost complex, but bear with me. Rich wants the "truth embargo" to end. OK. I put myself in the place of some agent who knows the truth, or some of the truth, or what the Govt allegedly knows and is hiding. I am watching Dolan. I see him fall for a slide of a roadside attraction mummy from the American SW as an ET. I say to myself, "Rich, you can't HANDLE the disclosure." And he can't. He and his followers wouldn't be able to distinguish set from noise. He just proved it. "But the specialists..." It's a roadside attraction, Rich. "But you don't speak Spanish well enough..." It's a mummy in a glass case, Rich. "But so-and-so says it's a reptilian lemur bigfoot Denisovan Homo florensis cross..." We found the museum, Rich, it still has the same sort of glass cases, flag-stone floor tiles and lighting through narrow apertures of windows and doors channeling bright sunlight into the room. "But Mrs. Ray knew Mrs. Eisenhower..." No, Ike married her in summer of 1947 and wasn't president until 1953, and you only think so because Dew said so. No alien, no body, no conenction with 1947 or Roswell or Eisenhower, only True Belief.

Richard Dolan is too stupid to be a spokesman for disclosure. He's lost his mind. He and Whitley and Linda might as well revisit Steve Greer's alien Native American baby mummy and claim it was all real all along.

I don't see any big disinformation campaign here, just hucksters and hoaxers trying to cash in the way Kiviat once did.
 
His crop circles look absolutely stunning. He seems to have a great talent and commitment to his artistic capacity. I can appreciate that kind of dedication to art and craft.

Do you believe that aliens made those crop circles?

What seems more believable?

I've never been convinced that aliens (understood as ets) were producing crop circles. What I will say is that I don't believe all crop circles (worldwide cc and those appearing in England) have been constructed by humans with ropes, boards, and garden rollers. I don't know who or what is the source of crop circles going down in many far flung and remote places on the planet in our time or of the hundreds of cc appearing in England for several decades before Team Satan came on the scene (note that several were reported in England in earlier centuries). It's a big subject with a very complex history, requiring a lot of reading of books by many crop circle researchers. I suggest, to cut to the chase of the motivation of the Circlemakers organization and activities, that you read Colin Andrews's book Government Circles.
 
OK, I've read the thread from May 3 till now now. I have a few thoughts.

The Mummy

1) It was customary at different times and places all over the world to break bones to make bone collections fit burial jars, etc. There is nothing anomolous about the mummy's head being broken. Peruvian mummies are often broken up into sections, Turfan mummies have massive discoloration, etc.

2) Mesa Verde NP would have been one of the first in line to carry out the executive order to repatriate the remains of Native Americans to local surviving tribes. This would be the Utes there at one of the two Ute reservations around Mesa Verde NP.

3) Really old mummies can twist and even shrink over time as almost a geological layer. The Anasazi cliff dwellers in SW Colorado probably weren't there that early. The child was likely newborn, not 2 years old, my guess here. I think the "other" mummy Stanton F., Nick R. and Linda M. H. have found in White's City is also a newborn, with uncongealed skull, either smashed at birth or left to boil in the sun, or has a birth defect.

Why Maussan is a Scam Artist and a Conman

1) He lied about "Kodak experts" dating the slide to 1947. Never happened. Kodak is bankrupt. The "experts" he used were contacted independently and said they couldn't date that precisely from the paper or film-stock codes on the margins. The slides also appear--to me and perhaps others old enough to remember the slide-show as a form of community entertainment--cropped. There is something wrong about the dimensions, not to mention the poor resolution.

2) He seemingly claimed on Dreamland (unknowncountry.com free downlad, current show) some Roswell eye-witness had ID-ed the figure in the slide as very like the Roswell alien bodies he had seen. The eye witness is now dead, Maussan said. This sounds like bullshit to me. Why didn't he showcase this eyewitness testimony earlier? Who is it? He seems to say Eliazer somebody, but I can't make it out through his Mexican accent, and I'm not versed in Roswelliana at all.

3) He can see as well as anyone else it is a mummy in a glass case at some American SW roadside attraction.

Why Richard Dolan is No Longer the Voice of "Disclosure"

This is almost complex, but bear with me. Rich wants the "truth embargo" to end. OK. I put myself in the place of some agent who knows the truth, or some of the truth, or what the Govt allegedly knows and is hiding. I am watching Dolan. I see him fall for a slide of a roadside attraction mummy from the American SW as an ET. I say to myself, "Rich, you can't HANDLE the disclosure." And he can't. He and his followers wouldn't be able to distinguish set from noise. He just proved it. "But the specialists..." It's a roadside attraction, Rich. "But you don't speak Spanish well enough..." It's a mummy in a glass case, Rich. "But so-and-so says it's a reptilian lemur bigfoot Denisovan Homo florensis cross..." We found the museum, Rich, it still has the same sort of glass cases, flag-stone floor tiles and lighting through narrow apertures of windows and doors channeling bright sunlight into the room. "But Mrs. Ray knew Mrs. Eisenhower..." No, Ike married her in summer of 1947 and wasn't president until 1953, and you only think so because Dew said so. No alien, no body, no conenction with 1947 or Roswell or Eisenhower, only True Belief.

Richard Dolan is too stupid to be a spokesman for disclosure. He's lost his mind. He and Whitley and Linda might as well revisit Steve Greer's alien Native American baby mummy and claim it was all real all along.

I don't see any big disinformation campaign here, just hucksters and hoaxers trying to cash in the way Kiviat once did.

Agree with pretty much everything you said, except the mummy being newborn. Making some assumptions about the display case and shelf brackets I think it's at least 30 inches, probably more like 36. I don't think it could be that small.
 
Your speculations about the intentions of Lundberg's Circlemakers seem to me to be based on little familiarity with and understanding of their activities over several decades in the marginalization of crop circles as a subject meriting serious scientific investigation. George certainly knows a great deal about that and, while he currently seems to be somewhat overwhelmed by what he perceives as their hoaxing skills, he could enlighten us about what the Circlemakers actually sought to do and did, and how and why they did it. I saw and heard enough in three years in the CCCforum to recognize their intentions and methods, but George had a front-row seat. I hope he will enlighten us concerning the Lundberg et al history.


Constance,

Unfortunately this forum is turning into a daily column for me and even then I can’t keep up with every question that’s fired at me. For just two months we have watched the Roswell Slides saga unfold and as I said earlier there has now been a change of gear that is forcing observers to declare whether they are Mummyists or Roswell Alien believers. It is a false division since I strongly believe there is a third solution to this hoax.

Make no mistake: we unexpectedly find ourselves in the Theater of the Absurd. There are several puppeteers who are pulling the strings and they only show us what they want us to see. You will be shown a series of illusions. There is the visible puppet master, Mr Maussan, and there is also the invisible puppet master, Mr Lundberg. Other lesser puppeteers include Mr Dew who was narrator in charge of the transparently false background story. In this theatrical production there are of course villains and there are dupes. Sometimes it’s not too obvious who is a villain and who is a dupe.

I’ve never been quite sure which camp Mr Anthony Bragalia belonged to. Initially he was an ardent advocate of the fact that we were being presented with a genuine Roswell Alien. He was billed in one of the British tabloids as the World’s Leading Ufologist but one must wonder if that was his own assessment. After the May 5th fiasco in Mexico City he suddenly jumps ship and announces that the Roswell Slides don’t show an alien after all and that the small creature is really a mummified Native American two year old and, oops I made a mistake (but I’m still the World’s Leading Ufologist anyway).

He then made a long groveling apology to the Native American people whose child this once had been that sounded about as insincere as one can imagine. Was all of this a Plan B to preserve the tattered reputation of an unfortunately mistaken ufologist? Or was it Plan B to cover up something he knew was a hoax in the first place? He insisted there never had been any hoax and it had all been a simple case of misidentification.

There followed various reports and claims from a number of people that the little mummy had once been in the Mesa Verde museum and it was quite plain that the background setting and display stands in the Roswell Slides were definitely the same as what you’d find in that museum. Well maybe and maybe not. Remember that photographic images can be cleverly altered these days and that the apparent museum setting in the slides could well have been used and then had the “alien”/”mummy” inserted in the image. That’s not possible some people will say since these photographs are from 1947. That is very possible I say, since there is every reason to believe photographs of the “creature” were actually taken during the last twelve months and the whole thing is a hoax.

Now apart from the folk in Mexico I think there is a general consensus the Roswell Slides were a hoax and a very carefully planned one at that. To pass them off as simply an unfortunate misidentification is absurd. This Mummyist Plan B, apart from anything else, has presented observers with two options: Do you think it was a real alien or was it a mummified child?

Some people who ought to know better have immediately leapt into the Mummyist camp and announced “Of course it’s a mummy. Case closed. Now let’s move on!” Maybe the hoaxmaster is smiling to himself as he slips away into the shadows. I note of course that Philip Mantle has now declared himself a Mummyist.

What people are forgetting here is that back in Mexico scientists, Dr Richard O’Connor, and a mummy expert have gone on record saying the creature was not a mummy and several have said it was definitely not human due to a whole list of strange anomalies. If you don’t believe me go watch Jaime Maussan’s video(s) again. The mummyists must be assuming that all these people are charlatans, unqualified idiots or else they have been paid off by Maussan to say on camera just what he wanted them to say.

I don’t think so. I haven’t been able to check on their credentials but I think their opinions are sincere and the reason is that the higher resolution photos of the creature which they were shown do indeed show these anomalies. The reason for this is not because it’s an extraterrestrial alien but because it’s a special effects dummy that has been specially prepared by the author of this hoax. He has carefully followed the Roswell “narrative” and given us (or rather given Jaime Maussan) a little alien that is about 47 inches tall with a humanoid appearance, a skull disproportionately large compared to its thorax, no nipples, a non-human rib configuration and several other anomalies.

What these scientists and doctors are quite unable to comprehend is that they are looking at photographs of specially constructed special effects dummy and not a “creature” at all. This is Alien MATILDA and it was constructed by the same guys who created HILDA. (They particularly admire H R Giger’s brilliant alien creature in the movie “Alien” but they can’t serve up one like that as they had to follow the narrative and produce a proper Roswell Alien!)

I know it’s hard for some people to get their heads round this but it is the truth of the matter and the Mummyist debate is only a distraction. I don’t know whether Gene is able to measure increased traffic to the Paracast Forums precisely because of this topic but I suspect there are a lot more visitors to the site reading this who probably won’t reveal their presence……..

Are you there, Jaime?? Are you reading this, Adam? Are you there Robert Sheaffer? Are you out there, Kevin? Are you reading this, Stanton? If you really want the truth the very best place to find it is in Paracast City!

George
 
It almost seems to me that George is upset because of a small group of individuals were able to accomplish where he has failed. If Wingfield can’t even address a few simple questions by IssacKoi , what is one to think?
 
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Constance,

What people are forgetting here is that back in Mexico scientists, Dr Richard O’Connor, and a mummy expert have gone on record saying the creature was not a mummy and several have said it was definitely not human due to a whole list of strange anomalies.

George
darthpalm.jpg


The very same Dr O'Connor who thought humans normally have 6 ribs? The one who based his estimate on cuff to thumb size of a woman's refracted hand ?
 
Constance,

Unfortunately this forum is turning into a daily column for me and even then I can’t keep up with every question that’s fired at me.

ok, I'll withdraw my request that you fill the forum in on the full history of the Lundberg group's deceptions and disinformation projects. Anyone who's interested can find out for themselves what these guys have been about by a critical reading of the Circlemakers.org website and some additional research.
 
George,
If you could supply some actual evidence for any of your claims, maybe we could consider them. Do you usually believe speculative stories without evidence from people on the internet?
 
For just two months we have watched the Roswell Slides saga unfold

Just for the sake of accuracy, I'll just mention that some of us have watched the Roswell Slides saga unfold for considerably longer than "just two months". There has been public discussion of the Roswell Slides since 2013.

Make no mistake: we unexpectedly find ourselves in the Theater of the Absurd.

We are less likely to make mistakes if we focus on evidence rather than speculation.

I know it’s hard for some people to get their heads round this but it is the truth of the matter and the Mummyist debate is only a distraction.

I don't think understanding your allegation is "hard for some people to get their heads around". Some of us are struggling to see any EVIDENCE supporting your allegations against Lundberg (either in relation to hoaxing the Santilli footage OR the Roswell Slides).

I don't think this is a failure on the part of those struggling to see the relevant evidence. Some of us have clearly and expressly asked for you to identify that evidence. You have not done so.

Oh well, speculation without evidence clearly entertains many people within ufology. Personally, I think this is one of the main problems with ufology. When someone puts forward an interesting claim, there should be a reflex response of "Interesting. Do you happen to have any evidence in support of your claims?".
 
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