IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
Interesting.
Have you written about your interactions with Pandolfi somewhere George?
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The Roswell Slides Have Been Leaked Online
- Thread starter BoyintheMachine
- Start date
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Interesting.
Have you written about your interactions with Pandolfi somewhere George?
IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
Nothing very secret about sources, it's simply a matter of pulling together relevant material. I'd post everything here, but the relevant points are merely a small part of a much larger piece I'm trying to get finished about a collection of documents. When writing that item, I refer to Ron Pandolfi of the CIA (so I'll be mentioning his links to - among others - Lundberg).
Sure, if you'd like.
Depends on what you mean by "employed".
If you mean "paid" by the CIA/MI5 to act on their behalf then I'd say my current estimate is that this is a negligible probability, i.e. there is no evidence that warrants serious consideration.
If you merely mean that someone from the CIA (namely Ron Pandolfi) stimulated some of Lundberg's activities, for whatever reason, then I think that is clear. (Again, nothing secret about sources - this is clear from material written by Lundberg and Mark Pilkington).
As I say, I'll include my notes on this when I get time to finish my item about a collection of documents.
Right. Has the Park Service provided you with the texts of federal or state laws that could be construed to prevent further sharing of data concerning this particular mummy? I doubt whether anyone is going to file a civil lawsuit to clarify whether standing laws can be so construed. Some kind of administrative rules hearing or mediation might be sought and obtained, though, if you and/or other researchers are interested in pursuing that path. You and/or they could take the position that further research is justified on the basis that the Park Service's own former displays of mummies and permitting of photos of them has produced a present problem for forensic scientists and physical anthropologists.
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IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
In one of its emails to me a couple of weeks ago, the museum referred to "respect for our Native America partners and the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act".
Yes, please do link these materials and your notes here. I look forward to reading it all.
They should be willing to provide you with a copy of that Act and also state laws (if any) subsequently enacted which the state Park Service might be limited by or assume it is limited by. In this country the individual states have also established Administrative Rules and Procedures of various types applying to specific agencies of state government, such as the Park Service relevant here. Administrative judges are appointed to adjudicate through these courts disputes between citizens seeking information and agency's withholding that information, and do so on the basis of interpreting both enabling legislation and established administrative rules, which can be and often are challenged.
ps, I doubt whether federal or state laws or administrative rules would permit the exhuming of this mummy for further examination, and I think that's as it should be and in the spirit of the federal Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. The standing laws and administrative rules might not prevent the Park Service from permitting academic and scientific researchers to perform research in its archives, however..
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I mean tasked by and paid for services rendered to some governmental or quasi-governmental interest group.
Such evidence will most probably never see the light of day, but I do not think the likelihood of the relationship I and many others have suggested is 'negligible'.
Han
piscator ψ
I think this is the most brilliant part of the scam, I don't have any evidence that anyone had prior knowledge of the status of the Mummy, but it is exceedingly convenient that the body in question is "protected".
I hope that any information that was previously collected is made available, but I don't think that it will satisfy the believers even if it is.
Some may say that the release of said information will put the matter to bed, but unfortunately I suspect that anything short of "we had an ET but we gave it back" will be interpreted as "conspiracy"/disinformation.
If I worked for the park service (whom I understand hold the desired information) I would have a hard time justifying to my superiours that settling an argument between ufologist factions is a worthy enough cause to go against "policy".
I think the onus is on the slide peddlers rather than anyone else, they should offer to pay any fees or costs incurred in the search for further information, as they are the ones that claim the slides show something unusual, and they should also bare the yoke of responsibility when it comes to any offence caused to the ancestors of the boy in question.
They would need the backing of US based anthropologists, and as they could not "source" any in the first instance (bewitness event) I am not confident they will be able to now, especially given that their only "evidence" is two slides........................
Bear in mind that any anthropologist would have to go on record as saying that the slides warrant further investigation, and that this negates or outweighs the need to show respect to the ancestors of the child in question, who's feelings are pretty obvious given that the mummy in question was reinterred at their request. round and round we go, catch 22 or however you want to put it.
Don't follow the mummy or the dummy, trace the money...
The public gets what the public wants...... and in this case they obviously wanted to be ripped off, allegedly over two million of them payed to stream the event, which I find more worrying than any extraterrestrial attack/visitation/contact.
One final thought is that if all the information is released and it is clearly demonstrated that the slides do indeed depict a human mummy, then that still does not shed any light on whether the slide peddlers knew this all along, in fact it may get them off the hook entirely, because they could then pretend that they showed due diligence initially and they could not access enough information (because of sensitivities) to make the correct interpretation......
If anyone wants a new rabbit hole to go down (I am on break) then they will find that a google search for B. Ray Smithsonian comes up with a Lunar Geologist name B. Ray Hawk, aka as B Ray to his friends:
http://www.spudislunarresources.com/Bibliography/p/7.pdf
there is also a video short from W.B. Ray High school TX about UFO's:
B Ray is also short for Blue Ray DISCS!
My point is there are endless possibilities or leads to follow, I don't think this is an accident, rather the result of a careful and premeditated mind management campaign, the war was lost long ago, and now the victors are counting their millions.
Make no mistake it comes at a price, and part of that price is that the same old attitude towards those interested in UFO's will be perpetuated, which in my personal experience is wrong, I have spoken with many rational, reasonable and intelligent people regarding these matters.
Not married to the idea of newborns, they just subjectively struck me that way.
In defense of George's thesis, there is a strange meme-like thing going on here: notice the Ray/Palmer subtext here, S. L. Palmer of San Francisco and Mr. and Mrs. Ray. For someone to make that meme-pun intentionally, the entire episode would have to be disinformation.
The legislation on returning human remains to proximate Native American recognized tribal groups is surely available simply by searching for it under its proper legislative name proviced by Isaac above, no need to bother the Parks Service for that. Just guessing here but it almost sounds as if the mummy HASN'T been returned to any of the local Ute groups, although I am guessing (again) it WAS found in the Mesa Verde complex at the top level behind the adobe brick rooms in the turkey pen/garbage section strata. NPS would have no legal reasons not to release any information they have including photographic under FOIA, but the issue might be they don't want the hassle of tracking down provenance in order to return it to the proper (but almost certainly genetically unrelated) tribal group in Colorado or Arizona. The actual practice as I remember was very top-down with an executive order from Clinton demanding adherence to the law before it was actually passed, and Kennewick Man at Burke Museum at the University of Washington was the most controversial case in carrying out what I remember was an executive order before it was a law, but it was many years ago, I might be wrong.
Note there is a tie-in or a viral marketing component here, Tim B. in the most recent episode of the Paracast notes the emergence of the new TV series Mysteries of the National Parks.
My understanding of Maussan's "take" was $200,000 in expenses subtracted from $210,000 in ticket revenues from the physical event plus let's say for the sake of being ultra-careful the same number of internet viewers for another $120,000, or $130,000 net US, although Maussan says he didn't even break even after expenses. Did Dolan receive a speaker's fee in addition to hotel and airfare?
Constance is certainly a Dolan fan, my only objection is he has misconstrued the obvious (roadside attraction mummy) in favor of the extremely exotic (Roswell ET or ET of some type) without anything more than testimony "from people whom I trust" and no real evidence, showing he prefers fantasy to common sense, and is no longer capable of dealing with any possible disclosure which might come his way. He won't recognize it, he'll think the truth is fake and the fake is true. God bless him and his academic work.
Clyde Lewis of Ground Zero Radio pointed out in his Roswell Slides show on May 6 that the original witnesses to "the bodies" at Roswell were unanimous in calling them malnourished children rather than ETs. I don't know my Roswell well enough to say that's totally true, but I do remember reading the same thing somewhere, and thinking gosh, they almost sound like Holocaust victims who caught a ride in a UFO and ended up in 1947. Lewis's show is free here:
iTunes - Podcasts - Ground Zero Media by Clyde Lewis
Thanks to all for at least reading my comments, and congratulations to Isaac and the others for doing the basic minimum, which has somehow become rare nowadays! But good work nonetheless.
You said a mouthful, Jack, but the fact of the matter is, in the Subscriber Section Whitley jumps it again, and this time it's one of those giant football-field black triangles, and IT'S HOVERING OVER SNAKE CANYON! Let me provide just a brief excerpt purely for purposes of literary criticism:
special_whitley_roswell.mp3 at 13:20:
"...obviously it was NOT what Linda found in the White [sic] Museum, which is a different and more obviously alien body, placarded with a placard that says, 'Is this an alien?' So, here we had a situation where these sup- experts had had this for two years, during which time no one had successfully deblurred the placard, which was obviously possible to deblur. What happened?!? Why not?!? What's the explanation ?!? Well, so far, nobody involved, including Jaime, has come up with a reasonable explanation as to why that failure took place. It goes really deep, and I have to tell you, I don't think we'll EVER come up with a completely clear explanation and I doubt that anyobdy who is involved is going to be able to figure it out either, ESPECIALLY if this mummy IS someone from the future, then it will NEVER, Don Schmitt will NEVER be able to figure out why the experts that he worked with didn't successfully deblur the placard. Jaime even said that they tried the police in Mexico City to deblur it. And you understand that the deblurring software that..."
Strieber also claims Eisenhower was "in the loop" regarding UFOs, that Eisenhower's wife was friends with a Mrs. Ray who he claims took the slides, and that this "may" have happened because Mrs. Eisenhower pestered her husband to see the alien bodies until she finally got access. Not only is the body an ET grey, it is a time traveller, and Linda Moulton Howe has discovered yet another ET at White's City, New Mexico, and a better one at that. The reason Jaime and the others couldn't deblur the placard next to the mummy (Strieber corrects himself at least once when he begins to call it a mummy, and says it is definitely NOT a mummy) is that high strangeness was injected to keep them from being able to deblur it. This is classic sloppy paranoid schizophrenic thinking, when one level of the conspiracy is disproved, it just expands to higher and higher rings of disinformation and duplicity. There is no real way to fight this sort of argument except to point out what it is and rely on the common sense of the person making the argument to reing their own excessive theorizing in. Could it be someone took slides of General Eisenhower or President Eisenhower at public functions WITHOUT knowing him personally? Is it possible he was never in the loop, or was not in 1947 when Roswell happened and when the slides were supposedly taken (but weren't actually)? Is it possible the two Native American mummies are just that? Is it possible they didn't travel back from the future, but slowly dried after death in the arid atmosphere of the SW? In the Dreamland with Jaime M. he says it was impossible for this "creature" to have lived, according to his "experts." OK, the fact is, it's dead, and it didn't apparently reach maturity. Is it possible Jaime KNEW the placard could be deciphered easily, but just DIDN"T WANT IT to be?
Whitley S. is predicting these two "Roswell Slides" are going to be with us for a long time and may never be explained. That means he and his friends are going to keep pushing this crap as real. Therefore Whitley S. will be JUMPING MANY AND BIGGER UFOs in the next coming years. Bravo! Yee-hah! Let the Calgary Intergalactic ET Stampede commence!
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
Yes, I have but I'd have to search for that back in England which may take some time. I had quite a few e-mail exchanges with Pandolfi but gave up after a bit as I got nothing but riddles and evasive answers. He certainly didn't admit being in touch with John Lundberg but didn't deny that he knew Jim Schnabel. I certainly puzzled a lot about Pandolfi's agenda as regards the crop circle business in the UK and I began to think that he was interested in the potential psychological effects on people --well, circles believers at any rate-- produced by the commissioning of large impressive crop circles. This was probably why I wrote somewhere that what Team Satan (Lundberg and Dickinson) were up to at that time was the testing of "Weapons of Mass Deception".
Their name for it seems to be "ostension" which is a word I hadn't even given a thought to for about fifty years until last month when John Lundberg popped up from nowhere on this Paracast Forum about the Roswell Slides using that name as his online persona.
IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
Thanks George. Well, I'd certainly be interested in getting a reference to any article you've published about your interaction with Ron Pandolfi (or others at the CIA), e.g. how that contact started, what contact you had and your impression of him - or simply hearing more from you about these issues. (I assumed the former would be easier for you, since I can probably obtain a copy of any article you can recall writing - rather than impose on your time to write up something you have previously put in writing).
Since you've been trying to establish a link between Ron Pandolfi of the CIA and John Lundberg, and since you've been kind enough to take the time to answer some questions from me (even though I've made it clear that I am not persuaded by some of your views), let me give you a couple of bits of information.
Firstly, here is a screen-shot from "The Mythologist" (John Lundberg's documentary about Armen Victorian aka Henry Azadehdel). This particular screen-shot is from 1 minute 30 seconds into that documentary. This is one of several points in the documentary at which emails from Armen Victorian are shown, but my point is about the background visible BEHIND that email from Armen Victorian. You will see several emails from Ron Pandolfi.
Secondly, you have not mentioned that Ron Pandolfi of the CIA was actually the person that suggested to John Lundberg that he do a documentary on Rick Doty (i.e. his "Mirage Men" documentary). Mark Pilkington (the author of the book of the same name) has been kind enough to confirm this fact to me.
I simply mention these facts because I assume that they will be of interest to you, and probably Constance, given the views you have both expressed.
The fact that we clearly have different views on some relevant issues should not prevent us sharing some information and resources that may be of mutual interest.
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Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
want 10K? well LMH has made an offer NOW here is a challenge what do YOU see wrong with Linda's research! I will post the answer later today! But if you see what I saw you can write Linda and with some work walk away with 10K!
Earthfiles.com Environment | Update: Kodachrome Slide Controversy Alien Body Does Not Match Entity Once Displayed in Closed Million Dollar Museum, White's City, NM
Earthfiles.com Environment | Update: Kodachrome Slide Controversy Alien Body Does Not Match Entity Once Displayed in Closed Million Dollar Museum, White's City, NM
wwkirk
Paranormal Adept
Whitley Streiber, Jaime Maussan, and Linda Moulton Howe allege that American intelligence placed an alien body in a museum with a false placard in order to test the public's reaction.
They don't dispute what the placard says. Whitley himself was able to deblur it.
Jaime says that if the placard were unveiled prior to the event, he would have gone through with it anyway as the body itself is anomalous.
They don't dispute what the placard says. Whitley himself was able to deblur it.
Jaime says that if the placard were unveiled prior to the event, he would have gone through with it anyway as the body itself is anomalous.
In a museum, in the open, no protection against alien viruses, for all to see. Yeah, logical — not!
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
'Anomalous' as I understand it means deviating from the norm. Nowhere in that description does it mean an extraterrestrial body.
'Ostension' is a red herring or a McGuffin used to cloud the minds of the Circlemakers' audience, also functioning as a pretense on which to justify that organization's hoaxing activities to uncritical readers of their website. I think there's an essay on ostension on that site written by Irving. Irving also wrote some posts about ostension in the now-defunct CCCforum. (I wish Mark Fussell would make the archives accessible online; do you know him George, and if so would you ask him about this possibility when you are next in England?) One thing that many people might not realize about these people is their chronic intellectual dishonesty. It's perhaps the basest element of their 'perception management' endeavors.