Thank you for summarizing the main points, maybe the only points, from that discussion. Now I don't have to listen to it all.
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The Roswell Slides Have Been Leaked Online
- Thread starter BoyintheMachine
- Start date
Free episodes:
Thank you for summarizing the main points, maybe the only points, from that discussion. Now I don't have to listen to it all.
Thanks George. Well, I'd certainly be interested in getting a reference to any article you've published about your interaction with Ron Pandolfi (or others at the CIA), e.g. how that contact started, what contact you had and your impression of him - or simply hearing more from you about these issues. (I assumed the former would be easier for you, since I can probably obtain a copy of any article you can recall writing - rather than impose on your time to write up something you have previously put in writing).
Since you've been trying to establish a link between Ron Pandolfi of the CIA and John Lundberg, and since you've been kind enough to take the time to answer some questions from me (even though I've made it clear that I am not persuaded by some of your views), let me give you a couple of bits of information.
Firstly, here is a screen-shot from "The Mythologist" (John Lundberg's documentary about Armen Victorian aka Henry Azadehdel). This particular screen-shot is from 1 minute 30 seconds into that documentary. This is one of several points in the documentary at which emails from Armen Victorian are shown, but my point is about the background visible BEHIND that email from Armen Victorian. You will see several emails from Ron Pandolfi.
Secondly, you have not mentioned that Ron Pandolfi of the CIA was actually the person that suggested to John Lundberg that he do a documentary on Rick Doty (i.e. his "Mirage Men" documentary). Mark Pilkington (the author of the book of the same name) has been kind enough to confirm this fact to me.
I simply mention these facts because I assume that they will be of interest to you, and probably Constance, given the views you have both expressed.
The fact that we clearly have different views on some relevant issues should not prevent us sharing some information and resources that may be of mutual interest.
". . . I simply mention these facts because I assume that they will be of interest to you, and probably Constance, given the views you have both expressed.
The fact that we clearly have different views on some relevant issues should not prevent us sharing some information and resources that may be of mutual interest."
I'm definitely interested in whatever information either of you can obtain about Armen Victorian and the reason why Irving and Lundberg focused The Mythologist on him. Also anything further about this documentary, which I think was Lundberg's art school 'thesis project'. Also, who owns the rights to the documentary. Did anyone download it when it was available? And also, what was the nature and subject matter of The Lobster, which as I recall was the first place where Irving published his satire about Victorian? Most important, I think, is the establishment of Victorian's activities in public investigation of mind-control programs going forward in the alphabet agencies. I linked to some of Victorian's writing on this subject in another thread here some time ago. I'll look for a link.
Found this in my Word files, from cc researcher Freddy Silva. Mentions you, George, and Armen Victorian.
Freddy Silva, Crop circles debunked, hoaxed and faked by circlemakers
“It has only been in response to a dramatic rise in the complexity of the phenomenon, followed by mass public appeal, that the authorities made concerted efforts to debunk the issue with well-orchestrated hoaxes. Fortunately, researchers have painstakingly discovered that the trail from each televised incident usually ends with the British government, and other authorities. In one cabinet meeting at Westminster, discussion even took place as to how the phenomenon should be debunked and discouraged. This evidence was published or reported by and credited to George Wingfield, Armen Victorian, Jurgen Kroenig, and others.”
“People who have successfully infiltrated hoaxer gangs in the past say that they are being paid an enormous amount of money to go about their disruptive techniques. In the case of Doug and Dave, the duo's origin was traced to the British military. Other known disrupters, such as Robert Irving and Jim Schnabel- collaborators with Dickinson in the past- admitted in a secretly taped conversation that the hoaxing and debunking is being carried out with the total support of the American, British and German secret service, ironically the countries which have made the only concerted efforts at debunking the whole phenomenon in their respective countries. Schnabel also went on to reveal how a "supernational organization" is behind the whole scheme. (Ironically, Schnabel later admitted in his book he was certain that despite the hoaxes there was still a real phenomenon behind it all.) The complete transcript was published in Magazin 2000 issue 93, 1993.”
[note: Silva was one of the most intelligent crop circle researchers, analyzing and writing about them over many years. He finally left the field and I think that country after hoaxing and disinformation had driven scientific researchers from the scene.]
Freddy Silva, Crop circles debunked, hoaxed and faked by circlemakers
“It has only been in response to a dramatic rise in the complexity of the phenomenon, followed by mass public appeal, that the authorities made concerted efforts to debunk the issue with well-orchestrated hoaxes. Fortunately, researchers have painstakingly discovered that the trail from each televised incident usually ends with the British government, and other authorities. In one cabinet meeting at Westminster, discussion even took place as to how the phenomenon should be debunked and discouraged. This evidence was published or reported by and credited to George Wingfield, Armen Victorian, Jurgen Kroenig, and others.”
“People who have successfully infiltrated hoaxer gangs in the past say that they are being paid an enormous amount of money to go about their disruptive techniques. In the case of Doug and Dave, the duo's origin was traced to the British military. Other known disrupters, such as Robert Irving and Jim Schnabel- collaborators with Dickinson in the past- admitted in a secretly taped conversation that the hoaxing and debunking is being carried out with the total support of the American, British and German secret service, ironically the countries which have made the only concerted efforts at debunking the whole phenomenon in their respective countries. Schnabel also went on to reveal how a "supernational organization" is behind the whole scheme. (Ironically, Schnabel later admitted in his book he was certain that despite the hoaxes there was still a real phenomenon behind it all.) The complete transcript was published in Magazin 2000 issue 93, 1993.”
[note: Silva was one of the most intelligent crop circle researchers, analyzing and writing about them over many years. He finally left the field and I think that country after hoaxing and disinformation had driven scientific researchers from the scene.]
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Han
piscator ψ
The Mythologist (2004) | BFI
Also here is an episode of a BBC comedy show (this episode is about hoaxes) Mr Lundberg makes a brief appearance because the show commissioned a CC from him:
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Here is some history of security and intelligence agencies' attempts to manipulate crop circle research, provided by Colin Andrews:
http://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/cropi1.htm
http://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/cropi1.htm
Thanks Han. I'm not finding a location on that site at which one can arrange to purchase a film or video. One can join the organization and/or donate to it. With or without doing one or the other, one can read linked pages concerning films and documentaries produced in Britain and also newsmagazine and other articles concerning them.
Han
piscator ψ
Hi Constance I am not sure if the film is for "sale" as such, but I think you can request a copy for "research" purposes.
I will post the link again:
Contact research viewing services | BFI
They (the BFI*) definitely have it in their archive:
The Mythologist (2004) | BFI
I have no idea if you will be able to "download" it, stream it, or if they will send you a DVD or similar, but if you fill in the form they will be able to tell you.
I also don't know if it will cost money or not, as I said before it is best to ask the BFI directly because I am not sure how they operate.
*British Film Institute
I will post the link again:
Contact research viewing services | BFI
They (the BFI*) definitely have it in their archive:
The Mythologist (2004) | BFI
I have no idea if you will be able to "download" it, stream it, or if they will send you a DVD or similar, but if you fill in the form they will be able to tell you.
I also don't know if it will cost money or not, as I said before it is best to ask the BFI directly because I am not sure how they operate.
*British Film Institute
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Re the mythologist
From what I can see on the site, this film is not available for online viewing. DVD's are not distributed ever, unless they are purchasable collections BFI chooses to print. The Mythologist is not on that list. Aside from further inquiries to their international collections person the best way to see this movie is to request an in person screening as you would with any archive.
From what I can see on the site, this film is not available for online viewing. DVD's are not distributed ever, unless they are purchasable collections BFI chooses to print. The Mythologist is not on that list. Aside from further inquiries to their international collections person the best way to see this movie is to request an in person screening as you would with any archive.
IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
George Wingfield is much better placed than me to provide information about Armen Victorian. My interest in Armen Victorian is focused on his contact with members of the so-called Aviary since Armen Victorian was one of the first researchers to publish allegations in relation to that group. However, tracing the history of Armen Victorian's investigation backwards, it seems that George Wingfield was the one that provided relevant names to Armen Victorian. In a conference speech in Leeds in 1992, Armen Victorian mentioned (at 4 minutes 55 seconds into his presentation) that he had received a fax from George Wingfield which gave relevant names, prompting his contact with members of the Aviary (some of which he recorded, e.g. his telephone call to Ron Pandolfi of the CIA).
This was one of my reasons for asking George Wingfield above whether he had written about his contact with Ron Pandolfi or can post further details, since I don't think the history of the emergence of allegations against members of the so-called Aviary is very well known or documented.
As for the "The Mythologist" documentary, what else would you like to know about its content? The last time I watched it was a couple of days ago. Obviously, John Lundberg is the person best placed to answer questions about copyright issues.
"The Lobster" is a magazine edited and published by Robin Ramsay. Robin also wrote a small "Pocket Essentials" book on conspiracy theories. Not much of The Lobster is about UFOs - tending to focus on other conspiracy theories (e.g. JFK and 9/11) plus quite a lot of wider discussion of issue relating to politics and the intelligence services. The Lobster is still around and has a website on which you can get an indication of its nature and subject matter from looking at a list of previous articles. Those previous articles include an article entitled "UFOs and the governments of the USA and UK" by Armen Victorian at:
UFOs and the governments of the USA and UK
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Where did you get access to The Mythologist? Copyright apparently is held at the National Film & TV School where it was produced as BFI does not hold the rights to it at all.
Han
piscator ψ
It was on telly back in the day BBC4 in 2004
A 26 minute documentary by John Lundberg. First broadcast on BBC FOUR in 2004.
source: The Mythologist - a film by John Lundberg
A 26 minute documentary by John Lundberg. First broadcast on BBC FOUR in 2004.
source: The Mythologist - a film by John Lundberg
IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
I saw it, and recorded it, when it was on BBC4 in 2004.
I have a fairly extensive collection of UFO documentaries, UFO books (about 1000+) and UFO journals/magazines (as you may know if you have followed my efforts to make searchable PDF versions of various publications freely available online, when I can obtain relevant permissions).
Incidentally, my collection of audio material is relatively weak but during the last couple of years I've finally been getting around to working on remedying this deficiency e.g. by working with another member of this forum (Croatian researcher Giuliano Marinković) to obtain and make freely available online the audio CDs collated by Wendy Connors (with the blessing of the person to whom Wendy Connors entrusted her materials, Roderick B. Dyke as archivist of the Archives for UFO Research"AUFOR"):
0 Master index - audio material wendy connors discs.pdf - File Shared from Box
Basically, I'd like to see more UFO source material (particularly official documents) made freely available online (ideally in searchable format - e.g. as searchable PDFs), in order to improve the quality of UFO research (or at least reduce excuses for poor UFO research...) and reduce the amount of time and energy wasted reinventing the wheel within ufology.
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Han
piscator ψ
“I am offering $5,000 for any historic photo that shows the same Kodachrome
slide body in a museum mummy display. There is not any real evidence of that.
And I'm offering $10,000 to anyone that gives information to find the Body. ”
Is the the correct translation of J Maussans's "tweet" ? and if so is it legally binding? or did LMH misquote him? or is it LMH that is offering the rewards?
I don't trust the bing translation. And the quote LMH's website seems more specific. The page is badly written and not clear.
source for English quote: Earthfiles.com Environment | Update: Kodachrome Slide Controversy Alien Body Does Not Match Entity Once Displayed in Closed Million Dollar Museum, White's City, NM
source of J. Maussan's tweet: Jaime Maussan Offers $10'000 Reward For Proof Of The Mummy | UFO Research Network
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
slide body in a museum mummy display. There is not any real evidence of that.
And I'm offering $10,000 to anyone that gives information to find the Body. ”
Is the the correct translation of J Maussans's "tweet" ? and if so is it legally binding? or did LMH misquote him? or is it LMH that is offering the rewards?
I don't trust the bing translation. And the quote LMH's website seems more specific. The page is badly written and not clear.
source for English quote: Earthfiles.com Environment | Update: Kodachrome Slide Controversy Alien Body Does Not Match Entity Once Displayed in Closed Million Dollar Museum, White's City, NM
source of J. Maussan's tweet: Jaime Maussan Offers $10'000 Reward For Proof Of The Mummy | UFO Research Network
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
I'm quoting some of what I wrote yesterday since it may have given the wrong impression about Pandolfi's association with Lundberg and the timeline of events in 1992. In April 1992 when I met Pandolfi I didn't yet know Lundberg and Dickinson although I knew Rob Irving. As far as I can tell all these three started their circlefaking activities in the summer of that year rather than in 1990 or 1991. Likewise Jim Schnabel, who had come over from Washington DC ostensibly to do a post-graduate course at Oxford University though I don't believe he ever took that up.
Besides Schnabel, Rosemary Ellen Guiley and Dan Smith had arrived in the UK on the crop circle scene and made extensive attempts to find out about the British crop circles, the leading researchers and what they knew about the phenomenon. These two who posed as a couple at the time (though they certainly weren't "an item") acted exactly like spies trying to steal secrets. They admitted that they were in close contact with CIA people back in DC but denied being on the payroll. Dan said that he did some computer consultancy work for the CIA in DC. It was Rosemary and Dan who arranged for me to meet Ron Pandolfi and four of his colleagues when I was in DC. At the arranged lunch with them I snapped a photograph of all five plus Rosemary and Dan which clearly made these CIA gentlemen rather uncomfortable though they didn't seize the camera. I have the photo in England but I think there is a copy of this image out there somewhere on the internet.
At that time in April 1992 most crop circle researchers including myself believed that there was a genuine --rather than manmade-- phenomenon although we recognized that some circles had definitely been made by people. Revelations of Doug and Dave's circlemaking activities had been revealed in TODAY newspaper in September 1991 when they claimed to have made ALL the crop circles that had been appearing in England. Obviously they had made quite a few but several of the large complex designs that appeared in 1990 1nd 1991 could not have been theirs. Other teams were presumably at work if one takes the line that all crop circles are man-made. I've heard Irving, Lundberg and Dickinson discussing this issue and it's clear they thought some unidentified group which they called the "A Team" were the ones responsible.
In addition to these strange encounters with CIA spooks in April 1992 I had attended and spoken about crop circles at one of the TREAT conferences in Atlanta, GA, just a few days earlier. At that conference I met for the first time John Alexander, General Stubblebine, Rima Laibow, Ed Dames and Steven Greer. The hottest topics that we discussed and which were also the main subjects for the presentations were Remote Viewing, Alien Abduction, Non-Lethal Warfare, psychotronic weaponry, and PK spoonbending, etc. This was all pretty amazing stuff for the uninitiated!
On Monday April 13, 1992, I flew to Washington DC and was walking with my ex-wife and a British friend called Susan Webster near the Washington Monument when we had a dramatic sighting of UFOs in the sky over the monument that I've written about elsewhere. I wrote about this extraordinary unexplained event and two of us took photos of the principal object that we saw. I am still very puzzled indeed about this striking UFO sighting and always wondered whether it might have been induced somehow by persons unknown using some kind of psychtronic beam device on us. (John Alexander has since assured me that --if that were the case-- it wasn't his people who were messing with our heads)
This was the extraordinary background to my meeting a few days later with the CIA spooks. My speculation (which I mentioned yesterday) that crop circles could be used as "Weapons of Mass Deception" by intelligence agencies for whatever purpose was something that I proposed two years later after I wrote the article "O What a Tangled Web We Weave" exposing the circlefaking activities of Lundberg, Irving and Dickinson together with several other groups.
George
Thanks for that information. I wasn't aware that George Wingfield knew Armen Victorian and interacted with him concerning research on the Aviary. I hope he'll tell us more about Victorian when he's next online here at Paracast forums.
I did link to the Lobster's website last night. The table of contents for Issue 32 (linked below) includes two articles by Victorian and a reference by the editor to Robert Irving's satirical piece on Victorian, published in the Fortean Times [not in Lobster] and also linked below.
I'd actually like to see the documentary just out of curiosity based on reading Irving's satirical piece on Victorian, which most likely characterizes the content and style of Lundberg's The Mythologist (for which Irving wrote the screenplay). Robin Ramsey, editor of Lobster, refers to the Fortean Times piece in issue 32 of Lobster; this extract is published in the table of contents:
Here are the titles and subtitles of two articles by Victorian in that same issue, quoting from the table of contents at the link just above {not working; use the link I've posted at the bottom of this post}:
"The CIA and radiation experiments on humans by Armen Victorian
- MKULTRA, BLUEBIRD-ARTICHOKE
- The CIA and the Interagency Group on Human Radiation Experiments
- The CIA and human radiation experiments
- The CIA and the US Army drug tests
- The CIA, the Department of Defense and Atomic Energy Commission radiation experiements
- Advisory Committee Witnesses
- The men from the Ministry
- How the Department of Defense treats UFOs
- Unknowns"
Invictus: A blog on U.S. Politics and the Fight Against Torture
Here is a link to Irving's Fortean Times article on Victorian:
The Mythologist - The Henry X File
Note: the link to the table of contents of Issue 32 of the Lobster from Ramsey's quoted comments above does not work. Click the following link and then click on Issue 32 to reach that table of contents.
Lobster Issue 32: december 1996
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IsaacKoi
Paranormal Maven
Thanks George. I have your article at pages 9-10 of FSR Volume 37 Number 2 (Summer 1992) entitled "ELEVEN UFOS OVER WASHINGTON, D.C. (APRIL 13, 1992)" describing your sighting, but your post above was the first time I can recall comments directly from you about your meal with Pandolfi and others.
I have seen comments from Dan Smith and Rosemary Ellen Guiley about that meal (originally posted on Paranet), so I'll paste some relevant extracts below in case anyone else is interested:
http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/ufo/aquarium
Incidentally, I have sought (unsuccessfully, thus far...) to encourage Dan Smith to provide a "just the facts ma'am" account by Dan Smith of his interactions with the Aviary, avoiding speculation and metaphysical discussion, since I find it is often difficult to distil facts from his articles. However, Dan did kindly give me permission to create PDF copies of his Best Possible World website as at 2001 and 2013 to enable more efficient and effective searching of the material on that website. With Dan Smith's permission, I uploaded the 2013 version to the link below:
Dan Smith Aquarium website 2013.pdf - File Shared from Box
Using that searchable PDF archive, it is possible to run EXTREMELY fast searches of the material on Dan's website (and, if you like, also at the same time search PDF copies of specified other websites, forums and official documents) for, say, Ron/Pandolfi/P/Catfish/CF/Mr P or Kit/Green/BJ.
“I am offering $5,000 for any historic photo that shows the same Kodachrome
slide body in a museum mummy display. There is not any real evidence of that.
And I'm offering $10,000 to anyone that gives information to find the Body. ”
Is the the correct translation of J Maussans's "tweet" ? and if so is it legally binding? or did LMH misquote him? or is it LMH that is offering the rewards?
I don't trust the bing translation. And the quote LMH's website seems more specific. The page is badly written and not clear.
source for English quote: Earthfiles.com Environment | Update: Kodachrome Slide Controversy Alien Body Does Not Match Entity Once Displayed in Closed Million Dollar Museum, White's City, NM
source of J. Maussan's tweet: Jaime Maussan Offers $10'000 Reward For Proof Of The Mummy | UFO Research Network
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Han, a few weeks ago, in this thread or another, I posted the name and location of the auction firm that sold the contents of the White museum about seven years ago. In case you are interested in pursuing what records they might have concerning the purchaser of this very small mummy, here is the relevant information copied from their website:
"HIGGINBOTHAM AUCTIONEERS, Lakeland, FLA
You may also call us at (800) 257-4161 , Monday – Friday, from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm. Our e-mail address is: [email protected]"
ps: I received that information from the current owner of White City, which includes the site of the former White City Million Dollar Museum. Here is his telephone number: 575 302 8731. Ask for Jay or his father (his father was the one who remembered the name and location of the auctioning firm).
Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
I need a clarification here.. the mummy in the roswell slides..
Was NOT in the million dollar museum?
Was NOT in the million dollar museum?